We now have our new boiler and gas fire in and working, replacing the
old back boiler. We have had the fire set in a chunk of slate which
looks pretty good, so I now need to install some sort of mantelpiece so
we have somewhere for the clock to sit.

After looking round a couple of warehouses, it became obvious that
getting a plank and fettling it myself would look better, so, In between
showers I dashed out to the shed and rooted round. To my amazement I
found a piece of oak left over from the boatbuilding exercise 25 years
ago. It will have originally have been purchased in about 1955 when the
original owner of the plans bought the materials, and a late uncle of
mine thought it was probably Spanish oak because of the colour.

On the boat we epoxied over it and then covered with paint or varnish
depending on whether sunlight would press on it. It has yellowed quite
nicely there.

So, is there any view on what is likely to work best in a house? Much
info on the 'net seems to say that some sort of oil would be
appropriate, but there isn't really enough spare to set a sensible area,
and I haven't found any sort of info about what happens to the colour
when the oil is applied. I'm tempted to just bung on some sort of
varnish and hope.

The other complication is that the hearth has a mahogany or similar
surround, so we have been holding up oak then mahogany. Eiter would look
good, but the oak has more memories.

Finally, are the floating shelf prongs as sold on ebay and elsewhere any
good for quite a heavy mantelpiece? We would probably have to set them
either side of the fire opening to get thick enough and stable enough
brickwork. Are they likely to droop or fail over the years.

Thanks for any insights
--
Bill

On 6 Sep, 20:00, Bill wrote:

So, is there any view on what is likely to work best in a house? Much
info on the 'net seems to say that some sort of oil would be
appropriate,

I finish a lot of oak as interior trim. Generally I'm aiming for a
1900s American Arts & Crafts finish (Stickley et al) so I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown. Then I usually finish
it with oil and then shellac. The oil is Liberon, a commercial pre-
thinned tung oil. Don't even think about linseed. The shellac is
Screwfix's button shellac, as that's cheap and decent quality. It's
best dewaxed first by letting it stand for a week first and then using
the clearer top two-thirds. Keep the waxy stuff as sanding sealer.
Apply with a 3/4" synthetic bristle artist's watercolour paintbrush
first, then use a rubber if you prefer. I wouldn't french polish oak
though.

I generally dislike varnish. I don't bother using nice timber just to
make it look like plastic. However if finger wear is likely (a
mantelpiece before a real fire) then I do use two coats (no more) of
"Patina", a gel polyurethane that's applied on a cloth. Screwfix used
to sell it, but now you have to be near Liverpool to find it. Funny
really - gel polys are popular in the US but unheard of here.

Andy Dingley wrote:

I finish a lot of oak as interior trim. Generally I'm aiming for a
1900s American Arts & Crafts finish (Stickley et al) so I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown. Then I usually finish
it with oil and then shellac. The oil is Liberon, a commercial pre-
thinned tung oil. Don't even think about linseed.

Why would you not use linseed oil?

On 6 Sep, 21:51, S Viemeister wrote:

Why would you not use linseed oil?

Mostly because it yellows with age. Not too bad on fumed oak, but a
disaster on pale wood.

Also because it's a quite strongly oxidising oil and really only
suitable when you're deliberately trying for forming a heavy film. The
main function of oils on fine wood finishing (especially under
shellac) is optical - you soak the top surface in something that fills
pores with a transparent high refractive index, highlighting the
chattoyance of maples or "popping the grain". Although this is an
important step, you want it to happen without "seeing the oil doing
it", if you see what I mean.

I do use linseed, but pretty much only as a hot-boiled oil with lead
driers, for doing repro work or making oilcloth. I boil my own.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 6 Sep, 21:51, S Viemeister wrote:

Why would you not use linseed oil?

Mostly because it yellows with age. Not too bad on fumed oak, but a
disaster on pale wood.

Also because it's a quite strongly oxidising oil and really only
suitable when you're deliberately trying for forming a heavy film. The
main function of oils on fine wood finishing (especially under
shellac) is optical - you soak the top surface in something that fills
pores with a transparent high refractive index, highlighting the
chattoyance of maples or "popping the grain". Although this is an
important step, you want it to happen without "seeing the oil doing
it", if you see what I mean.

I do use linseed, but pretty much only as a hot-boiled oil with lead
driers, for doing repro work or making oilcloth. I boil my own.

Thank you. Excellent explanation!

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 6 Sep, 21:51, S Viemeister wrote:

Why would you not use linseed oil?

Mostly because it yellows with age. Not too bad on fumed oak, but a
disaster on pale wood.

I wondered why you'd want to colour it at all ("I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown."

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 6 Sep, 21:51, S Viemeister wrote:

Why would you not use linseed oil?
Mostly because it yellows with age. Not too bad on fumed oak, but a
disaster on pale wood.

I wondered why you'd want to colour it at all ("I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown."

Mary


I guess you never have used lipstick, hair dye or nail varnish, Mary..

And your house is all bare natural colored plaster walls

And you dress in undyed beigey natural fabrics..

and drive an unpainted car or bicycle.

On 8 Sep, 09:44, "Mary Fisher" wrote:

I wondered why you'd want to colour it at all ("I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown."

Well if it's 1900 A&C repro, you pretty much have to - it's implicit
in the style.

Then having done a bit of it, you realise it's quite a nice technique
anyway. It's also a decent way to "distress" the colour of repro oak
accurately and without grossly invasive dyes. Now if you're starting
from the position that "the present-day is sometime around 1500", then
you might have a different attitude to the look of new pale oak.
Personally I think it looks too much like post-war church fittings.

I've even ammonia-darkened whole buildings (timber frames) where the
intention was to match new frames into an old building. As this was
done wet, it goes to blackish rather than mod brown.

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 6 Sep, 21:51, S Viemeister wrote:

Why would you not use linseed oil?
Mostly because it yellows with age. Not too bad on fumed oak, but a
disaster on pale wood.

I wondered why you'd want to colour it at all ("I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown."
Mary
I guess you never have used lipstick, hair dye or nail varnish, Mary..

And your house is all bare natural colored plaster walls

And you dress in undyed beigey natural fabrics..

and drive an unpainted car or bicycle.

Hmmm. On the boat, where it has been exposed to sun and sea for over 20
years, it turned a nice yellowey colour. But because of the constant
battle between u/v and epoxy, we have now painted over almost all the
external wood.

All this talk of fuming ammonia sounds scary, but I'll look it up. I've
also been scouring the internet without finding where to buy "Patina"
near Liverpool. I seem to spend my life ringing suppliers and asking for
things they have never heard of and I don't know the name of. (Last year
it was or turned out to be "sex bolts" - for them I had to put a pic of
the old ones on Picasa and ask what they were called).

I think I'd be happy with light oak colour. She doesn't know!!. My gut
feeling is that oak should look natural, and if I wanted a darker wood,
I'd start from mahogany, but it's all guesswork.
--
Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 6 Sep, 21:51, S Viemeister wrote:

Why would you not use linseed oil?
Mostly because it yellows with age. Not too bad on fumed oak, but a
disaster on pale wood.

I wondered why you'd want to colour it at all ("I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown."
Mary
I guess you never have used lipstick, hair dye or nail varnish, Mary..

LOL! Very, very rarely.

And your house is all bare natural colored plaster walls

It might well have been uncoloUred had it not had wallpaper when we moved
in - which we painted white.

And you dress in undyed beigey natural fabrics..

Whatever I get from the charity shops.

and drive an unpainted car or bicycle.

The bike was green when I acquired it, the car was blue when we bought it
second hand. It hasn't been touched up where the paint has gone.

What are you trying to prove?

The difference is that if the old garden gate is blistered and faded a lick
of paint wouldn't do any harm. But one wouldn't paint a lily or rose. I've
never stained timber for any purpose - even for 'period authenticity' - Andy
probably knows that.

But as a natural philistine you wouldn't.

Sorry, Bill, I only see np's posts when they're included in someone else's -
someone I'm prepared to read.

Hmmm. On the boat, where it has been exposed to sun and sea for over 20
years, it turned a nice yellowey colour. But because of the constant
battle between u/v and epoxy, we have now painted over almost all the
external wood.

All this talk of fuming ammonia sounds scary, but I'll look it up.

It was a fashion. Andy's quite right.

I've also been scouring the internet without finding where to buy "Patina"
near Liverpool. I seem to spend my life ringing suppliers and asking for
things they have never heard of and I don't know the name of. (Last year
it was or turned out to be "sex bolts" - for them I had to put a pic of
the old ones on Picasa and ask what they were called).

Sex bolts? Tell us more.

I think I'd be happy with light oak colour. She doesn't know!!. My gut
feeling is that oak should look natural, and if I wanted a darker wood,
I'd start from mahogany,

Same here. I think the same about any timber. In my youth there was 'light
oak', 'medium oak' and 'dark (or Jacobean) oak'. Very little light oak was
seen and the result was dark, dim rooms which needed atificial lighting even
during the day. I inherited a hanging light fitting in 'dark oak' from a
beloved godmother and the hand-made-by-my-uncle fire surround had also been
stained or varnished in 'dark oak'. I insisted that they wee both scraped
and sanded until they were light - they look wonderful. And Dr Charles
Kightley, an historian, period house and furniture restorer came one day and
danced in the room in glee admiring the fire surround - perfect for its time
(1937).

We don't use mahogany - it's exotic rather than native - but horses for
courses.

See above about the garden gate and flowers - cf young and old aged skin :-)

Mary

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 8 Sep, 09:44, "Mary Fisher" wrote:

I wondered why you'd want to colour it at all ("I begin by
ammonia fuming it (dead easy) to a mid-brown."


....

I've even ammonia-darkened whole buildings (timber frames) where the
intention was to match new frames into an old building. As this was
done wet, it goes to blackish rather than mod brown.

Timber frames inside old buildings were originally the light colour of oak
but they were darkened by smoke. When such buildings are restored nowadays
the new timbers are left the natural colour to show that they're new - in my
experience.

Of course, if they're in private houses and the owners think that darkened
timbers look more authentic ...

External timbers were usually painted in pastel or even bright colours -
pink was especially popular. 'Black and white Tudor' timbers is a myth.

Mary

On 8 Sep, 18:32, Bill wrote:

All this talk of fuming ammonia sounds scary, but I'll look it up.

You make a big box / tent and put a tray in the bottom of it with some
strong domestic cleaning ammonia in it (doesn't have to be .880,
doesn't need to come from the mythical draughtsman's suppliers). Then
wait 24 hours. I usually want to fiddle after about 12 hours, so I
have a look inside and often re-arrange bits so that nothing is
getting shaded.

For small pieces, big Tupperware is enough. For most work, I use a
Perspex "coffin" that used to be a piece of terrifying lab
electrophoresis kit (keeping the chemists away from the killervolt
supplies). Wardrobes use a custom-made tent out of polythene sheet,
beansticks and parcel tape.

Don't spill the ammonia. Direct liquid contact goes black.

Watch out for sapwood. The ammonia reacts with tannins in the
heartwood alone and sapwood stays pale (like the crap I saw for sale
in Habitat last weekend).

I wear a full-face mask, but it's not essential.

also been scouring the internet without finding where to buy "Patina"
near Liverpool.

Langlow make it (in Speke, I believe). I'd given up hope of seeing it
again until I walked into Newlands in Ormskirk recently and they had
plenty.

In message
, Andy
Dingley writes
=
For small pieces, big Tupperware is enough. For most work, I use a
Perspex "coffin" that used to be a piece of terrifying lab
electrophoresis kit (keeping the chemists away from the killervolt
supplies). Wardrobes use a custom-made tent out of polythene sheet,
beansticks and parcel tape.

I'm not sure I'll be trying this, although I did steam some 25'
replacement rubbing strakes for the boat using layflat polythene tubing
standing up vertically beside the shed with an electric kettle taped to
the bottom, re-watered through the spout. When we built, this was the
only way, and the tube was threaded onto the stringers horizontally so
they could be eased into shape in situ. In those days I used old pyjamas
to keep the heat in. But I digress......

Langlow make it (in Speke, I believe). I'd given up hope of seeing it
again until I walked into Newlands in Ormskirk recently and they had
plenty.
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together. The turmoil caused by
having the house re-plumbed for the heating meant that I needed to find
an additional desk for my 'office'. Been scouring ebay, placed a bid of
a fiver and collected it today from near Ormskirk. Desk absolutely ideal
and a bargain, and I found Newlands and bought one of their cans of
"Patina". Newlands seems to be a great shop. Whilst in there I was
accosted by a fellow customer asking if I could read the price on the
sledgehammer he was inspecting. I didn't have my glasses either, but
managed to achieve crucial distance and read the price. I think we were
lucky he didn't drop it on either of our feet, and he returned it to the
rack. But I wish there were a shop like that near me.

The family jury is still out, and I will have to dig out some smaller
scraps to see how the oak goes. The family seems to be leaning towards a
mahogany mantelpiece, though.

Thanks Andy for all this really valuable info.

--
Bill