Hi,

I can't seem to see anywhere that is selling the new onsite guide yet -
maybe it hasn't been printed yet!? (Where is the best (cheapest!) place to
get a copy of the regs?)

I understand that all circuits that are not proved to be mechanically
protected need 30mA RCD protection.

The house I have just bought has old breakers in a rewritable fuse box (Plug
in replacements to the fuses, a bit like this
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYB10.html But with two buttons on the
front (trip and reset))
I plan to replace it with a 3 way unit, with two RCD's and a non protected
section, so I can RCD the lights separately from the sockets, have the
fridge and freezer on the non protected side, and have a feed to the garage
in SWA off the unprotected side.

I assume the SWA is ok, as it is protected "out of the box" so does not need
to be connected to an RCD in the house (It will go into a RCD or RCBO
protected consumer unit in the garage, so the circuits there will be
protected, and as the garage is very close to the house, the TN-S earth will
be exported (I assume it is still OK to use the steel wire as earth, so I
only need 2 core cable?))

If I were to run twin and earth from the unprotected side in the house, can
this just be clipped to the sides of the joists under the floor, or will it
need protecting even under there to be compliant?

If buried in a wall, I assume it needs steel capping, I assume this needs
earthing too - if so, where to, am I supposed to cut into the CPC of the
cable I am protecting, or do I need to run a separate earth cable back to
the CU (if so, what size?)?

How about running it through a hole the wall to the back of an IP66 box (to
then connect the SWA to, feeding the garage?), do I need any other
protection here, like a short length of metal conduit?

Many thanks!

Toby...

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:54:55 +0100, Toby wrote:

Hi,

I can't seem to see anywhere that is selling the new onsite guide yet -
maybe it hasn't been printed yet!? (Where is the best (cheapest!) place
to get a copy of the regs?)

I understand that all circuits that are not proved to be mechanically
protected need 30mA RCD protection.

The house I have just bought has old breakers in a rewritable fuse box
(Plug in replacements to the fuses, a bit like this
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYB10.html But with two buttons on
the front (trip and reset))
I plan to replace it with a 3 way unit, with two RCD's and a non
protected section, so I can RCD the lights separately from the sockets,
have the fridge and freezer on the non protected side, and have a feed
to the garage in SWA off the unprotected side.

I assume the SWA is ok, as it is protected "out of the box" so does not
need to be connected to an RCD in the house (It will go into a RCD or
RCBO protected consumer unit in the garage, so the circuits there will
be protected, and as the garage is very close to the house, the TN-S
earth will be exported (I assume it is still OK to use the steel wire as
earth, so I only need 2 core cable?))

If I were to run twin and earth from the unprotected side in the house,
can this just be clipped to the sides of the joists under the floor, or
will it need protecting even under there to be compliant?

If buried in a wall, I assume it needs steel capping, I assume this
needs earthing too - if so, where to, am I supposed to cut into the CPC
of the cable I am protecting, or do I need to run a separate earth cable
back to the CU (if so, what size?)?

How about running it through a hole the wall to the back of an IP66 box
(to then connect the SWA to, feeding the garage?), do I need any other
protection here, like a short length of metal conduit?

Many thanks!

Toby...

==================================
http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=892940

www.compman.co.uk - listed as 'forthcoming - discounted by 11% to
£17-80p. They take advance orders and will deliver when available.
Very reliable bookseller.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

Toby wrote:

I can't seem to see anywhere that is selling the new onsite guide yet -
maybe it hasn't been printed yet!? (Where is the best (cheapest!) place
to get a copy of the regs?)

Not out yet. Soon (i.e. September) IIRC.

I understand that all circuits that are not proved to be mechanically
protected need 30mA RCD protection.

Yup. Mechanical, including burying deep enough.

The house I have just bought has old breakers in a rewritable fuse box
(Plug in replacements to the fuses, a bit like this
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYB10.html But with two buttons on
the front (trip and reset))
I plan to replace it with a 3 way unit, with two RCD's and a non
protected section, so I can RCD the lights separately from the sockets,
have the fridge and freezer on the non protected side, and have a feed
to the garage in SWA off the unprotected side.

Yup sounds ok so far.

I assume the SWA is ok, as it is protected "out of the box" so does not
need to be connected to an RCD in the house (It will go into a RCD or
RCBO protected consumer unit in the garage, so the circuits there will
be protected, and as the garage is very close to the house, the TN-S
earth will be exported (I assume it is still OK to use the steel wire as
earth, so I only need 2 core cable?))

Yup. Short distance exporting of a TN-S earth is usually fine. Using the
armour of the cable is the best way to do it.

If I were to run twin and earth from the unprotected side in the house,
can this just be clipped to the sides of the joists under the floor, or
will it need protecting even under there to be compliant?

If it is out of reach of nails etc, then it is fine.

If buried in a wall, I assume it needs steel capping, I assume this
needs earthing too - if so, where to, am I supposed to cut into the CPC
of the cable I am protecting, or do I need to run a separate earth cable
back to the CU (if so, what size?)?

The more typical solution would be metal conduit (and you could use
singles rather than T&E in it), or MICC, or there is a new type of earth
shielded cable designed with this sort of application in mind - but I
forget the source or its name). For that matter you could run SWA if the
routing and bending is not going to be a problem.

How about running it through a hole the wall to the back of an IP66 box
(to then connect the SWA to, feeding the garage?), do I need any other
protection here, like a short length of metal conduit?

If its out of reach on the side of a joist then that sounds ok.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Toby wrote:

How about running it through a hole the wall to the back of an IP66 box
(to then connect the SWA to, feeding the garage?), do I need any other
protection here, like a short length of metal conduit?

Should have also said you can surface run T&E and not need RCD
protection since it is not concealed.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Toby wrote:

How about running it through a hole the wall to the back of an IP66 box
(to then connect the SWA to, feeding the garage?), do I need any other
protection here, like a short length of metal conduit?

Should have also said you can surface run T&E and not need RCD protection
since it is not concealed.

--
Cheers,

John.


Thanks John, all sounds sensible to me, the fact I can run surface, and not
have to protect or RCD is good for the runs to the ovens, hob, fridge and
alarm - will save hassle!

The new installation I am thinking of (just written it out tonight, so it
may need tweaking), is as follows...(It's in a 3 bed semi)

Cable lengths are approximate, I haven't measured properly, they are
probably over estimated if anything!

60A Cut-Out, earthing provided by suppliers cable sheath (TN-S)

Earth connected, via 16mm cable, to earthing block
Gas main bonded to earthing block (10mm)
Water main bonded to earthing block (10mm)
Consumer Unit 1 connected to earthing block (16mm)

(Do these cable sizes sound OK, there are already 10mm runs to the gas and
water)

Consumer Unit 1 - House
15 module, triple way, two RCD's and 1 main switch.

Section 1 - 80A/30mA RCD
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
Spare (Blanked)

Section 2 - 80A/30mA RCD
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
Spare (Blanked)

Section 3 - 100A Switch
32A - MCB - Radial - 4.0mm XPLE SWA 2core - 20m - Garage Sub main, Earth
exported via steel wire.
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Microwave/Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Induction Hob
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Kitchen Fridge
10A - RCBO - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Exterior Lights
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 05m - Alarm System
Spare (Blanked)

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

Consumer Unit 2 - Garage (From 32A RCD in Consumer Unit 1)
5 way consumer unit - 1 Section with 100A switch, earth exported from house
(TN-S)
16A - RCD - Radial - 2.5mm T&E Single Socket for freezer only (Positioned
and marked accordingly)
06A - RCBO - Radial - 1.0mm T&E - Lights
20A - RCBO - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - Sockets
20A - RCBO - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - Outside stuff (Connected through various
fused spurs)
Spare (Blanked)

-----------------

The consumer units I propose to get are from the Wylex NH Range
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNHRS15SSLHI.html
and
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNH504.html

Maybe I am going OTT with the amount of ways I am using (the existing only
has 5!) but does it matter / would it be better done differently, or while I
am at it, why not!

I plan to document and photograph everything, to build a manual for the
house too.

Thanks for any comments!

Toby wrote:

Thanks John, all sounds sensible to me, the fact I can run surface, and
not have to protect or RCD is good for the runs to the ovens, hob,
fridge and alarm - will save hassle!

I think you can put them in surface trunking as well if required, since
there is little chance of drilling into that and not noticing!

The new installation I am thinking of (just written it out tonight, so
it may need tweaking), is as follows...(It's in a 3 bed semi)

Cable lengths are approximate, I haven't measured properly, they are
probably over estimated if anything!

60A Cut-Out, earthing provided by suppliers cable sheath (TN-S)

Earth connected, via 16mm cable, to earthing block
Gas main bonded to earthing block (10mm)
Water main bonded to earthing block (10mm)
Consumer Unit 1 connected to earthing block (16mm)

(Do these cable sizes sound OK, there are already 10mm runs to the gas
and water)

Yup sounds ok. If more convenient you can do the main equipotential bond
to both services with a single wire as long as it is unbroken (i.e. loop
through the clamp on the first, and run on to the second). Obviously
depends on layout if that is helpful or not.

You have not mentioned tails size. FOr a 60A supply, you could go as low
as 16mm^2, however using 25mm^2 may be prudent to allow for an easy
supply upgrade in the future.

Consumer Unit 1 - House
15 module, triple way, two RCD's and 1 main switch.

Section 1 - 80A/30mA RCD
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
Spare (Blanked)

Section 2 - 80A/30mA RCD
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
Spare (Blanked)

Section 3 - 100A Switch
32A - MCB - Radial - 4.0mm XPLE SWA 2core - 20m - Garage Sub main,
Earth exported via steel wire.
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Microwave/Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Induction Hob
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Kitchen Fridge
10A - RCBO - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Exterior Lights
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 05m - Alarm System
Spare (Blanked)

Yup sounds ok, although beware there are a couple of schools of thought
on how to split out the lighting. The way you have it there is very
little chance of getting a nuisance trip of the lighting RCD, however if
it does trip you lose all lights in one go. You could for example mix
the upstairs ring and downstairs lighting, on one RCD and kitchen +
downstairs ring and upstairs lighting on the other. More chance of
getting a nuisance trip on a lighting circuit, but you only lose one at
a time.

The posh solution would be lighting on individual RCBOs on the non RCD
section. (lower trip current RCBOs (i.e. 6A) now seem to be getting more
common as well)

Personally I would add an emergency light in the proximity of the CU
anyway.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

Consumer Unit 2 - Garage (From 32A RCD in Consumer Unit 1)
5 way consumer unit - 1 Section with 100A switch, earth exported from
house (TN-S)
16A - RCD - Radial - 2.5mm T&E Single Socket for freezer only
(Positioned and marked accordingly)
06A - RCBO - Radial - 1.0mm T&E - Lights
20A - RCBO - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - Sockets
20A - RCBO - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - Outside stuff (Connected through
various fused spurs)
Spare (Blanked)

Yup, sounds good. Also keeps the outside stuff (higher risk of nuisance
trips) on its own RCD(s).

-----------------

The consumer units I propose to get are from the Wylex NH Range
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNHRS15SSLHI.html
and
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNH504.html

Maybe I am going OTT with the amount of ways I am using (the existing
only has 5!) but does it matter / would it be better done differently,
or while I am at it, why not!

Indeed the time and effort is much the same regardless, and a nicely
segmented system is easier to maintain and test anyway.

I plan to document and photograph everything, to build a manual for the
house too.

More than you will usually get from a pro sparks! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Toby wrote:

Thanks John, all sounds sensible to me, the fact I can run surface, and
not have to protect or RCD is good for the runs to the ovens, hob, fridge
and alarm - will save hassle!

I think you can put them in surface trunking as well if required, since
there is little chance of drilling into that and not noticing!

Exclent, makes sense!


The new installation I am thinking of (just written it out tonight, so it
may need tweaking), is as follows...(It's in a 3 bed semi)

Cable lengths are approximate, I haven't measured properly, they are
probably over estimated if anything!

60A Cut-Out, earthing provided by suppliers cable sheath (TN-S)

Earth connected, via 16mm cable, to earthing block
Gas main bonded to earthing block (10mm)
Water main bonded to earthing block (10mm)
Consumer Unit 1 connected to earthing block (16mm)

(Do these cable sizes sound OK, there are already 10mm runs to the gas
and water)

Yup sounds ok. If more convenient you can do the main equipotential bond
to both services with a single wire as long as it is unbroken (i.e. loop
through the clamp on the first, and run on to the second). Obviously
depends on layout if that is helpful or not.

These are already installed, singally, so I don't need to bother (other than
th check them, obviously!)

If it was being one in one run, if the cable was cut, can it be
soldered/crimped, and still be OK?


You have not mentioned tails size. FOr a 60A supply, you could go as low
as 16mm^2, however using 25mm^2 may be prudent to allow for an easy supply
upgrade in the future.

Iam not sure acutally, I think they are 16mm, but will check, do you know
the normal external diameter of 16mm cables?

Consumer Unit 1 - House
15 module, triple way, two RCD's and 1 main switch.

Section 1 - 80A/30mA RCD
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
Spare (Blanked)

Section 2 - 80A/30mA RCD
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
Spare (Blanked)

Section 3 - 100A Switch
32A - MCB - Radial - 4.0mm XPLE SWA 2core - 20m - Garage Sub main, Earth
exported via steel wire.
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Microwave/Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Induction Hob
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Kitchen Fridge
10A - RCBO - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Exterior Lights
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 05m - Alarm System
Spare (Blanked)

Yup sounds ok, although beware there are a couple of schools of thought on
how to split out the lighting. The way you have it there is very little
chance of getting a nuisance trip of the lighting RCD, however if it does
trip you lose all lights in one go. You could for example mix the upstairs
ring and downstairs lighting, on one RCD and kitchen + downstairs ring and
upstairs lighting on the other. More chance of getting a nuisance trip on
a lighting circuit, but you only lose one at a time.

The posh solution would be lighting on individual RCBOs on the non RCD
section. (lower trip current RCBOs (i.e. 6A) now seem to be getting more
common as well)

Personally I would add an emergency light in the proximity of the CU
anyway.

Sounds very sensible, then I can just have a 2 way split board too, gaining
another 2 modules (where the seconds RCD was) - not that I really need any
more ways!)

I was thinking of putting one of these in the celing, over the front door,
and at the top of the stairs (the front door is very near the bottom of the
stairs)
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/EMAG3MW.html

The consumer unit will be in a cupboard next to the front door. (This is
where the cut-out is)

I also plan to put the boiler above this, is that OK?
I assume I will need to put a shelf between the boiler and the electrics, to
minimise the risk of a leaking boiler dripping onto the consumer unit and
cut-out?

I gess sloping the shelf slightly forward, will mean any water will run
away, towards the front of the cuupboard too.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

Consumer Unit 2 - Garage (From 32A RCD in Consumer Unit 1)
5 way consumer unit - 1 Section with 100A switch, earth exported from
house (TN-S)
16A - RCD - Radial - 2.5mm T&E Single Socket for freezer only
(Positioned and marked accordingly)
06A - RCBO - Radial - 1.0mm T&E - Lights
20A - RCBO - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - Sockets
20A - RCBO - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - Outside stuff (Connected through
various fused spurs)
Spare (Blanked)

Yup, sounds good. Also keeps the outside stuff (higher risk of nuisance
trips) on its own RCD(s).

-----------------

The consumer units I propose to get are from the Wylex NH Range
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNHRS15SSLHI.html
and
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYNH504.html

Maybe I am going OTT with the amount of ways I am using (the existing
only has 5!) but does it matter / would it be better done differently, or
while I am at it, why not!

Indeed the time and effort is much the same regardless, and a nicely
segmented system is easier to maintain and test anyway.

I plan to document and photograph everything, to build a manual for the
house too.

More than you will usually get from a pro sparks! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

While I am doing it, it seems silly not to spend an extra few minutes taking
photos, then writing it up later!

As for Part P....I assume I really do need to do this properly, as it will
be a complete rewire - what is the procedure here, will it cost me loads to
jump through their hoops?!

Toby...

wrote in message ...
On 15 Aug,
"Toby" wrote:

Section 1 - 80A/30mA RCD
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
Spare (Blanked)

Section 2 - 80A/30mA RCD
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
Spare (Blanked)

Would you ot be better splitting the lighting/power between the boards:


section 1

Downstairs Sockets
Upstairs lighting
Kitchen Sockets

Section 2
Upstairs sockets
Downstairs lighting

So that some lighting is available if an RCD trips.

--
B Thumbs

Yes, sounds like a better idea, but as John said, I can just get a two way
board, and put them on RCBO's - that's even better :-)

Thanks for the reply though!

Toby...

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:47:01 +0100, wrote:

Section 1 - 80A/30mA RCD
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
Spare (Blanked)

Section 2 - 80A/30mA RCD
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
Spare (Blanked)

Would you ot be better splitting the lighting/power between the boards:

section 1

Downstairs Sockets
Upstairs lighting
Kitchen Sockets

Trouble is with that a "fault" on the downstairs ring will turn of the
lights upstairs. Plungeing anyone up there into sudden and unexpected
darkness...

Personally I'd rather the lighting was not on an RCD but it appears that
17th Ed won't allow that.

Having three rings on a single 30mA trip might start to push things these
days with so many devices having SMPUs and "leaky" supression components
across the mains. IIRC the recomendation is for no more that 10 such
devices per 30mA trip...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:47:01 +0100, wrote:

Section 1 - 80A/30mA RCD
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - MCB - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
Spare (Blanked)

Section 2 - 80A/30mA RCD
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
Spare (Blanked)

Would you ot be better splitting the lighting/power between the boards:

section 1

Downstairs Sockets
Upstairs lighting
Kitchen Sockets

Trouble is with that a "fault" on the downstairs ring will turn of the
lights upstairs. Plungeing anyone up there into sudden and unexpected
darkness...

Personally I'd rather the lighting was not on an RCD but it appears that
17th Ed won't allow that.

Having three rings on a single 30mA trip might start to push things these
days with so many devices having SMPUs and "leaky" supression components
across the mains. IIRC the recomendation is for no more that 10 such
devices per 30mA trip...

Okay, so I started with a three way CU, then decided 2 way, now I think I
should have a single way, with a 100A switch, and use more RCBO's!

Here is the revised plan for the house CU

Consumer Unit 1 - House
14 module, 100A switch

32A - RCBO - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 30M - Downstairs Sockets
32A - RCBO - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 40M - Upstairs sockets
32A - RCBO - Ring - 2.5mm T&E - 25M - Kitchen Sockets
32A - MCB - Radial - 4.0mm XPLE SWA 2core - 15m - Garage Sub main, Earth
exported via steel wire.
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Microwave/Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Induction Hob
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Kitchen Fridge
10A - RCBO - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Exterior Lights
06A - RCBO - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 20m - Downstairs lighting
06A - RCBO - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 25m - Upstairs lighting
06A - MCB - Radial - 1.5mm T&E - 05m - Alarm System
Spare (Blanked)
Spare (Blanked)

Toby wrote:

These are already installed, singally, so I don't need to bother (other
than th check them, obviously!)

If it was being one in one run, if the cable was cut, can it be
soldered/crimped, and still be OK?

IIRC the regs make reference to "unbroken" connections - so this may be
a case where a join is not acceptable.

You have not mentioned tails size. FOr a 60A supply, you could go as
low as 16mm^2, however using 25mm^2 may be prudent to allow for an
easy supply upgrade in the future.

Iam not sure acutally, I think they are 16mm, but will check, do you
know the normal external diameter of 16mm cables?

about 9.1mm IIRC. (11mm for 25mm^2)

Personally I would add an emergency light in the proximity of the CU
anyway.

I was thinking of putting one of these in the celing, over the front
door, and at the top of the stairs (the front door is very near the
bottom of the stairs)
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/EMAG3MW.html

Yup, very good plan. One by the CU is "handy" but not necessarily life
saving. Ones showing the exit routes however can certainly be in the
latter category. (again depends a bit on the location and the amount of
ambient light about)

While I am doing it, it seems silly not to spend an extra few minutes
taking photos, then writing it up later!

As for Part P....I assume I really do need to do this properly, as it
will be a complete rewire - what is the procedure here, will it cost me
loads to jump through their hoops?!

Depends on your local authority and how they want to play it. In theory,
you submit a building notice ( = £100) and they test/inspect as
required and give you a completion notice at the end. If they do play it
like that, then it is probably not too onerous for a complete rewire.
However you may find they expect you to pay for a third party test
certificate etc at which point it gets very much more expensive and
possibly impossible if you are rewiring piecemeal.

As far as I can tell the number of people who do follow the "correct"
route is a figure tending toward zero. Reading between the lines (and
the facial expressions from my BCO that last time I spoke to him) many
LAs are quite relieved about that!



--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Toby wrote:

These are already installed, singally, so I don't need to bother (other
than th check them, obviously!)

If it was being one in one run, if the cable was cut, can it be
soldered/crimped, and still be OK?

IIRC the regs make reference to "unbroken" connections - so this may be a
case where a join is not acceptable.

Fair enough, it's not relevent in my situation anyway, just curios.

You have not mentioned tails size. FOr a 60A supply, you could go as low
as 16mm^2, however using 25mm^2 may be prudent to allow for an easy
supply upgrade in the future.

Iam not sure acutally, I think they are 16mm, but will check, do you know
the normal external diameter of 16mm cables?

about 9.1mm IIRC. (11mm for 25mm^2)

Thanks, I will go and measure tonight, I think it will be 16mm though.

The seal on the cut-out is broken, curious me had a peek inside (It has a
hinged cover on it, that hides the fuse) I notice there is a label inside
that states "Use Asbestos Tube When Rewiring"
Does this indicate that it needs replacing by the DNO?

Here are some pictures of it...
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/cut-out1.jpg
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/cut-out2.jpg
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/cut-out3.jpg


Personally I would add an emergency light in the proximity of the CU
anyway.

I was thinking of putting one of these in the celing, over the front
door, and at the top of the stairs (the front door is very near the
bottom of the stairs)
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/EMAG3MW.html

Yup, very good plan. One by the CU is "handy" but not necessarily life
saving. Ones showing the exit routes however can certainly be in the
latter category. (again depends a bit on the location and the amount of
ambient light about)

The road does have street lighting, but during a power cut, the lot could go
off, so I will install the ones I posted - they are flush fitting, so
shouldn't look too industrial, I chose mainintained versions, because there
were only a few pounds more, and I may use them as they are (presumably)
energy efficiant (8w)

While I am doing it, it seems silly not to spend an extra few minutes
taking photos, then writing it up later!

As for Part P....I assume I really do need to do this properly, as it
will be a complete rewire - what is the procedure here, will it cost me
loads to jump through their hoops?!

Depends on your local authority and how they want to play it. In theory,
you submit a building notice ( = £100) and they test/inspect as required
and give you a completion notice at the end. If they do play it like that,
then it is probably not too onerous for a complete rewire. However you may
find they expect you to pay for a third party test certificate etc at
which point it gets very much more expensive and possibly impossible if
you are rewiring piecemeal.

As far as I can tell the number of people who do follow the "correct"
route is a figure tending toward zero. Reading between the lines (and the
facial expressions from my BCO that last time I spoke to him) many LAs are
quite relieved about that!


As the house was a repossession, there is no saying I didn't get it like
this ;-) ...

Next question is regarding RCBO's - the Wylex ones on the TLC site, are all
type C, where as the MK ones are type B - as I understand it, as they are
protected with and RCD (Integral to the RCBO) then they type doesn't
actually matter in this case - is that correct? - I prefer the look of the
Wylex consumer unit, but am happy to go with the MK if having a type B is
preferable here.

Thanks for your help here :-)

Toby...

Toby wrote:

Iam not sure acutally, I think they are 16mm, but will check, do you
know the normal external diameter of 16mm cables?

about 9.1mm IIRC. (11mm for 25mm^2)

Thanks, I will go and measure tonight, I think it will be 16mm though.

The ones in your picture look like they may be PBJ or VIR rather than
the modern style tails with two layers of insulation.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ins_Cables#PBJ

The seal on the cut-out is broken, curious me had a peek inside (It has
a hinged cover on it, that hides the fuse) I notice there is a label
inside that states "Use Asbestos Tube When Rewiring"
Does this indicate that it needs replacing by the DNO?

Here are some pictures of it...
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/cut-out1.jpg
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/cut-out2.jpg
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/cut-out3.jpg

Never seen one like that before! Looks fairly ancient as well. That
could well be pre war, and may be quite fragile. Note also that it has
both live and neutral in close proximity - so handle with great care.

Might be worth asking the supplier if they would come and fit a main
switch fro you.

Personally I would add an emergency light in the proximity of the CU
anyway.

I was thinking of putting one of these in the celing, over the front
door, and at the top of the stairs (the front door is very near the
bottom of the stairs)
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/EMAG3MW.html

Yup, very good plan. One by the CU is "handy" but not necessarily life
saving. Ones showing the exit routes however can certainly be in the
latter category. (again depends a bit on the location and the amount
of ambient light about)

The road does have street lighting, but during a power cut, the lot
could go off, so I will install the ones I posted - they are flush
fitting, so shouldn't look too industrial, I chose mainintained
versions, because there were only a few pounds more, and I may use them
as they are (presumably) energy efficiant (8w)

Yup, maintained can be switched manually as well as automatically during
a power fail.

The emergency light by the CU idea can vary in effectiveness - if you
have good street lighting etc, then finding your way to it to fix a
local trip should be ok. Lighting over stairs etc for the more general
case is obviously worth having for both trips and more general power
failures.

While I am doing it, it seems silly not to spend an extra few minutes
taking photos, then writing it up later!

As for Part P....I assume I really do need to do this properly, as it
will be a complete rewire - what is the procedure here, will it cost
me loads to jump through their hoops?!

Depends on your local authority and how they want to play it. In
theory, you submit a building notice ( = £100) and they test/inspect
as required and give you a completion notice at the end. If they do
play it like that, then it is probably not too onerous for a complete
rewire. However you may find they expect you to pay for a third party
test certificate etc at which point it gets very much more expensive
and possibly impossible if you are rewiring piecemeal.

As far as I can tell the number of people who do follow the "correct"
route is a figure tending toward zero. Reading between the lines (and
the facial expressions from my BCO that last time I spoke to him) many
LAs are quite relieved about that!


As the house was a repossession, there is no saying I didn't get it like
this ;-) ...

Indeed.

Next question is regarding RCBO's - the Wylex ones on the TLC site, are
all type C, where as the MK ones are type B - as I understand it, as
they are protected with and RCD (Integral to the RCBO) then they type
doesn't actually matter in this case - is that correct? - I prefer the

No. The type dictates the response curve of the MCB component of the
device and has nothing to do with the RCD function.

As you are probably aware a MCB has two independent trip mechanisms. A
magnetic one actuated by a solenoid that will clear large fault currents
"instantly" (i.e. = 0.1 sec), and a thermal one designed to clear
smaller but sustained overload currents.

The type C device has a less sensitive instant trip. This allows it to
pass higher very short duration currents (like inrush current on motor
or fluorescent light starts, or fault current when a filament lamp
blows) than the type B.

look of the Wylex consumer unit, but am happy to go with the MK if
having a type B is preferable here.

For lighting circuits type Cs can often mitigate against nuisance trips
on bulb blows. However the effectiveness of this will vary a bit
depending on how stiff your supply is, and mains halogens can still take
out a type C.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:22:43 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Never seen one like that before! Looks fairly ancient as well. That
could well be pre war, and may be quite fragile.

The style of the printed lable has that 20's/30's look about it as well.
When was this house built?

Might be worth asking the supplier if they would come and fit a main
switch fro you.

I'm not overly convinced about the braided conductor between the earth
block and the incoming cable either.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:22:43 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Never seen one like that before! Looks fairly ancient as well. That
could well be pre war, and may be quite fragile.

The style of the printed lable has that 20's/30's look about it as well.
When was this house built?

late 30's!


Might be worth asking the supplier if they would come and fit a main
switch fro you.

I'm not overly convinced about the braided conductor between the earth
block and the incoming cable either.

Me neither!

However, I don't really want to risk disturbing it!

I will call the DNO on Monday, to ask for an isolator to be fitted, with a
bit of luck, they will see how old the cut out is, and change it!

Toby...

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:46:09 +0100, Toby wrote:

The style of the printed lable has that 20's/30's look about it as
well. When was this house built?

late 30's!

There we go then, orginal equipment.

I will call the DNO on Monday, to ask for an isolator to be fitted, with
a bit of luck, they will see how old the cut out is, and change it!

They might, it maybe old but still looks pretty servicable, now if the
cover was cracked, or the hinge broken. Bear in mind that changing it will
almost certainly involve live working for who ever does it and the incomer
is no doubt 80 years old as well and might not take kindly to being messed
about with...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 22:46:09 +0100, Toby wrote:

The style of the printed lable has that 20's/30's look about it as
well. When was this house built?
late 30's!

There we go then, orginal equipment.

The other clue is on the patent applied for dates in the small print of
the label - 1921 and 1923!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:36:23 +0100, Toby wrote:

16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Microwave/Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Induction Hob
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Kitchen Fridge

These are all run with some form of protection or are 50mm from any
surface?

AIUI 17th Ed says *all* circuits must be RCD protected unless physically
protected or 50mm from a surface.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:36:23 +0100, Toby wrote:

16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Built in Microwave/Oven
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Induction Hob
16A - MCB - Radial - 2.5mm T&E - 10m - Kitchen Fridge

These are all run with some form of protection or are 50mm from any
surface?

AIUI 17th Ed says *all* circuits must be RCD protected unless physically
protected or 50mm from a surface.

Yes, I think I can achieve this!

wrote:
On 16 Aug,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

AIUI 17th Ed says *all* circuits must be RCD protected unless physically
protected or 50mm from a surface.

What if they are clipped to the surface, and thus visible?

Yup I think that is ok as well (although CBA to get the book off the
shelf to quote chapter and verse right now) ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/