"Toby" wrote in message
...

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I
trun on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure what
the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the
ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination cap
on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it has
not gone off (even with the wondows closed), so that's good.

Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where
the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came
down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the plan
is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in, including a
new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally taking
it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

Thanks!

Toby...

"Toby" wrote in message
...

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I
trun on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure what
the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the
ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination cap
on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it has
not gone off (even with the wondows closed), so that's good.

Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where
the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came
down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the plan
is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in, including a
new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally taking
it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

Thanks!

Toby...




A brush and vacuum would be kinder than a screwdriver!

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I trun
on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure what
the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the ground
floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination cap on the
end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it has not
gone off (even with the wondows closed), so that's good.

Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where the
flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the plan
is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in, including a
new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally taking it
apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

Thanks!

Toby...

"John" wrote in message
...

"Toby" wrote in message
...

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I
trun on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure
what the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the
ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination
cap on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it has
not gone off (even with the wondows closed), so that's good.

Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where
the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came
down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the
plan is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in,
including a new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally taking
it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

Thanks!

Toby...




A brush and vacuum would be kinder than a screwdriver!


Yea, but, the heat exchanger looks to be quite deep (maybe 30cms ish) and
the fins are rather close together, so I don't think I am going to get very
far with a brush
at least with the screwdriver, careful prodding means I can get right in
there!

I doubt it has been serviced for a very long time, looking at the state of
it!

I will try and stick a camera in the boiler to take a picture!

In article ,
"Toby" writes:
"John" wrote in message
...

"Toby" wrote in message
...

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I
trun on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure
what the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the
ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination
cap on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it has

You need two things to go wrong to get CO in the room:
1) Fumes not all going up the chimney/flue, and
2) Very poor (incomplete) combustion.

Sounds like you only have 1) at the moment, but 1) can
easily cause 2).

With an open-flued appliance, this can happen for a minute
or so when it first lights and the chimney is still stone
cold. A smoking match test near the flue inlet (if you can
get near it) would be a good test. Also, check the flames
are all blue, and they're all going up the heat exchanger
and not floating underneath it or coming out the sides
(sorry I don't know what you can see of this in that
boiler).

Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

That is almost certainly due to poor combustion forming
soot, so you probably do have both 1) and 2).

I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where
the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came
down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the
plan is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in,
including a new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally taking
it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

A brush and vacuum would be kinder than a screwdriver!

Soot is really difficult stuff to suck up. I suggest
trying to collect most of it on a sheet of paper or card.
If you use a vacuum cleaner, it will stain the insides
black, and it will either instantly clog the bag, or pass
straight through and out with the exhaust. What works
best is to use a bag which is already full of fluff, as
the fluff will trap a significant amount of the soot before
it gets to the bag.

Yea, but, the heat exchanger looks to be quite deep (maybe 30cms ish) and
the fins are rather close together, so I don't think I am going to get very
far with a brush
at least with the screwdriver, careful prodding means I can get right in
there!

You use a special brush which is designed to run up the
sides of the fins (or nippples). Depending on the design,
you may need to do this from several directions to clean
the heat exchanger. When I used to service an old cast
iron boiler, I would take out the burner assembly whilst
doing that, both to clean it, and to stop the crud going
into the burners and pilot assembly.

I doubt it has been serviced for a very long time, looking at the state of
it!

I will try and stick a camera in the boiler to take a picture!

Unless you are familiar with cleaning one of these and
testing the flue, I would suggest you permanently turn it
off. I think it's just waiting to kill you unless you get
it properly seviced.

How about starting by putting in a new boiler?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Toby" writes:
"John" wrote in message
...

"Toby" wrote in message
...

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I
turn on the central heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure
what the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the
ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination
cap on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it
has

You need two things to go wrong to get CO in the room:
1) Fumes not all going up the chimney/flue, and
2) Very poor (incomplete) combustion.

Sounds like you only have 1) at the moment, but 1) can
easily cause 2).

With an open-flued appliance, this can happen for a minute
or so when it first lights and the chimney is still stone
cold. A smoking match test near the flue inlet (if you can
get near it) would be a good test. Also, check the flames
are all blue, and they're all going up the heat exchanger
and not floating underneath it or coming out the sides
(sorry I don't know what you can see of this in that
boiler).

Looking at the front, there are a set of large vent holes, I think you can
see up the flue from here!
Here is a picture of the front of it
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/CF50_Front.jpg

If I take the outer casing off (Can definitely see up the flue now), then
take the inspection cover off where the burner is, there is a hole in the
back, I assume this is where it draws in air for the burner...


Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty
crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

That is almost certainly due to poor combustion forming
soot, so you probably do have both 1) and 2).

It doesn't seem to be just soot (I imagine has a similar consistency as
printer toner?)
I seems lumpy, like large grit, maybe a couple of MM wide - you can clearly
hear it clattering up the vacuum cleaner pipe!



I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where
the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came
down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot
water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the
plan is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in,
including a new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally
taking
it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

A brush and vacuum would be kinder than a screwdriver!

Soot is really difficult stuff to suck up. I suggest
trying to collect most of it on a sheet of paper or card.
If you use a vacuum cleaner, it will stain the insides
black, and it will either instantly clog the bag, or pass
straight through and out with the exhaust. What works
best is to use a bag which is already full of fluff, as
the fluff will trap a significant amount of the soot before
it gets to the bag.

Yea, but, the heat exchanger looks to be quite deep (maybe 30cms ish) and
the fins are rather close together, so I don't think I am going to get
very
far with a brush
at least with the screwdriver, careful prodding means I can get right in
there!

You use a special brush which is designed to run up the
sides of the fins (or nippples). Depending on the design,
you may need to do this from several directions to clean
the heat exchanger. When I used to service an old cast
iron boiler, I would take out the burner assembly whilst
doing that, both to clean it, and to stop the crud going
into the burners and pilot assembly.

The burner is really easy to remove, it just slots in, and located with a
peg in a hole, I was surprised how easy it was to remove to be honest, but
as the boiler is screwed to the wall, it cant fall out, so I supposed it is
supposed to be like this..


I doubt it has been serviced for a very long time, looking at the state
of
it!
I will try and stick a camera in the boiler to take a picture!

Unless you are familiar with cleaning one of these and
testing the flue, I would suggest you permanently turn it
off. I think it's just waiting to kill you unless you get
it properly seviced.

How about starting by putting in a new boiler?


Just trying to decide where to put it at the moment, I would like to put it
in the loft, but that will mean the new flue will go out through the roof -
I would like the boiler hung on the party wall (Semi detached house), as
this is the only wall up there - but this will mean the flue will come out
right next to the chimney, which I don't think is allowed, unless it
protrudes right up and over the chimney, and that would look stupid, I would
rather not tap into the chimney it's self, to put the flue up there either,
as this will mean the fireplace below can't be used if I want to later.

I guess it could come out of the top of the boiler, into a 90 degree bend,
then travel right, then another 90 degree bend, then out the roof, towards
the rear of the house - I will have to have a proper look to see if that is
feasible...

Next door have their boiler in the bathroom, it vents out the side wall, but
I wanted to get rid of the cupboard with the hot water cylinder in the
bathroom if I get a combi, so would rather not do that.

As the Kitchen is quite small, I don't really want it in there either,
that's where the current one is, and as the one I am looking at (Vaillant
Ecotech Plus 837) is physically quite large (larger than the current one
anyway), I don't want it in there.

(I chose this model, due to it's DHW rating (15.2 l/pm @ 35C) and I thought
Vaillant was a decent brand, with easy availability of spares, but if there
is any good reason to reconsider this, please let me know!

Toby...

"Toby" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Toby" writes:
"John" wrote in message
...

"Toby" wrote in message
...

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if
I
turn on the central heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure
what the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the
ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination
cap on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it
has

You need two things to go wrong to get CO in the room:
1) Fumes not all going up the chimney/flue, and
2) Very poor (incomplete) combustion.

Sounds like you only have 1) at the moment, but 1) can
easily cause 2).

With an open-flued appliance, this can happen for a minute
or so when it first lights and the chimney is still stone
cold. A smoking match test near the flue inlet (if you can
get near it) would be a good test. Also, check the flames
are all blue, and they're all going up the heat exchanger
and not floating underneath it or coming out the sides
(sorry I don't know what you can see of this in that
boiler).

Looking at the front, there are a set of large vent holes, I think you can
see up the flue from here!
Here is a picture of the front of it
http://www.altphuk.co.uk/images/CF50_Front.jpg

If I take the outer casing off (Can definitely see up the flue now), then
take the inspection cover off where the burner is, there is a hole in the
back, I assume this is where it draws in air for the burner...


Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty
crap
inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

That is almost certainly due to poor combustion forming
soot, so you probably do have both 1) and 2).

It doesn't seem to be just soot (I imagine has a similar consistency as
printer toner?)
I seems lumpy, like large grit, maybe a couple of MM wide - you can
clearly hear it clattering up the vacuum cleaner pipe!



I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins
where
the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck
came
down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot
water
while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the
plan is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in,
including a new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally
taking
it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

A brush and vacuum would be kinder than a screwdriver!

Soot is really difficult stuff to suck up. I suggest
trying to collect most of it on a sheet of paper or card.
If you use a vacuum cleaner, it will stain the insides
black, and it will either instantly clog the bag, or pass
straight through and out with the exhaust. What works
best is to use a bag which is already full of fluff, as
the fluff will trap a significant amount of the soot before
it gets to the bag.

Yea, but, the heat exchanger looks to be quite deep (maybe 30cms ish)
and
the fins are rather close together, so I don't think I am going to get
very
far with a brush
at least with the screwdriver, careful prodding means I can get right in
there!

You use a special brush which is designed to run up the
sides of the fins (or nippples). Depending on the design,
you may need to do this from several directions to clean
the heat exchanger. When I used to service an old cast
iron boiler, I would take out the burner assembly whilst
doing that, both to clean it, and to stop the crud going
into the burners and pilot assembly.

The burner is really easy to remove, it just slots in, and located with a
peg in a hole, I was surprised how easy it was to remove to be honest, but
as the boiler is screwed to the wall, it cant fall out, so I supposed it
is supposed to be like this..


I doubt it has been serviced for a very long time, looking at the state
of
it!
I will try and stick a camera in the boiler to take a picture!

Unless you are familiar with cleaning one of these and
testing the flue, I would suggest you permanently turn it
off. I think it's just waiting to kill you unless you get
it properly seviced.

How about starting by putting in a new boiler?


Just trying to decide where to put it at the moment, I would like to put
it in the loft, but that will mean the new flue will go out through the
roof - I would like the boiler hung on the party wall (Semi detached
house), as this is the only wall up there - but this will mean the flue
will come out right next to the chimney, which I don't think is allowed,
unless it protrudes right up and over the chimney, and that would look
stupid, I would rather not tap into the chimney it's self, to put the flue
up there either, as this will mean the fireplace below can't be used if I
want to later.

I guess it could come out of the top of the boiler, into a 90 degree bend,
then travel right, then another 90 degree bend, then out the roof, towards
the rear of the house - I will have to have a proper look to see if that
is feasible...

Next door have their boiler in the bathroom, it vents out the side wall,
but I wanted to get rid of the cupboard with the hot water cylinder in the
bathroom if I get a combi, so would rather not do that.

As the Kitchen is quite small, I don't really want it in there either,
that's where the current one is, and as the one I am looking at (Vaillant
Ecotech Plus 837) is physically quite large (larger than the current one
anyway), I don't want it in there.

(I chose this model, due to it's DHW rating (15.2 l/pm @ 35C) and I
thought Vaillant was a decent brand, with easy availability of spares, but
if there is any good reason to reconsider this, please let me know!

Toby...

A bottle brush (Small bristles long wire)does the job in conjunction with
an old vacuum cleaner, don't use your good one SWMBO will not be happy with
the state of it when finished (guess how I know that!!) soot seems to make
everything black and gets everywhere

Des

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dieseldes"
saying something like:

snip

if there is any good reason to reconsider this, please let me know!

Toby...

A bottle brush

171 lines, 4 of them yours - be nice if you snipped some.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

I too have a Potterton Flamingo open flued boiler, with hot water
cylinder, and am looking into renewing it in a couple of years.

- I have a 3 bed ground floor flat, with no insulation, and single
glazing.

- (we must first cut heat wastage through walls, windows, and
ventilation to keep boiler size and gas bills down)

I have found out the following (I am not an expert CORGI installer,
but an architect trained to calculate heating systems):-

- Stopped production 1989. (mine was installed 16 years ago in
1992)

- It is about 65% efficient, quite a lot less than a modern boiler.
I calculate it is costing about £180 per year more than a modern
boiler to run. It is working with no trouble.

- Open flue needs careful checking that enough fresh air enters room
because burning gas flames burn room air. Thus you are checking for
Carbon Monoxide fumes.

- Your predecessor clearly did not get the usual annual service, and
the heat exchanger has got sooted up. This needs clearing or it is
wasting heat. Remove the plate below the chimney flue, and clean the
soot from between the fins. Keep a bit of cardboard on top of the gas
burner to catch falling soot. You can buy little brushes from
plumbing suppliers, or use pieces of wire. Strictly this is a job for
a CORGI registered gas maintenance man.

- But British Gas (v expensive quotes) priced replacing it with a
modern condensing boiler at £5000, which would take 28 years of
efficiency savings, to make it worth replacing the old boiler.

- Ideal Boilers Ltd told me that their current condensing boilers
last about 5-10 years, and their heat-exchangers are made of
aluminium.

- so it is 3x as expensive to replace with new as put up with an
inefficient old boiler, subject to how long it lasts.

- Aluminium heat exchangers corrode badly when acidic condensing
flue gases work in efficient condensing mode.

A heating engineer wrote to a trade magazine (Heating Ventilation and
Plumbing magazine 2/07) that he had twice had condensing boilers with
aluminium fail in less than 2 years, because he ensured they were
working very efficiently in condensing mode. he said he thinks most
aluminium condensing boilers last longer because the installers do not
design the system for efficient condensing mode, so are mostly only
working efficiently for 10mns per day.

- The other problem about replacement is Combi boilers:-
Perhaps the reason they only have 5 year life is that the heat
exchanger must get lime-scaled like an electric kettle in hard water
area.

- The central heating circuit is closed and so can have corrosion
and scale inhibitors in the main flow water, but the Domestic Hot
Water cannot have inhibitors because it comes out of your taps. You
must not use softeners, or the heat exchanger will corrrode from the
inside as well as th outside.

- Does anyone know about this ? How can you remove the scale from
Domestic hot water heat exchanger in a COMBI boiler?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
On Aug 11, 3:25*pm, "John" wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it
(Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I
trun on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure what
the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

In article ,
Owain wrote:
I would recommend you get a "Landlords" ie basic safety check done as a
matter of some urgency. This is not usually expensive (£100?) If the
boiler is unsafe you need to know sooner rather than later, and you may
have some recourse against the seller of the house.

Eh? Unless the seller has warranted the heating to be in perfect working
order - in writing - I very much doubt it. That's why you have your own
checks done on a house before buying.

--
*Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Owain wrote:
I would recommend you get a "Landlords" ie basic safety check done as a
matter of some urgency. This is not usually expensive (£100?) If the
boiler is unsafe you need to know sooner rather than later, and you may
have some recourse against the seller of the house.

Eh? Unless the seller has warranted the heating to be in perfect working
order - in writing - I very much doubt it. That's why you have your own
checks done on a house before buying.


IANAL but I believe there is a legal assumption that major systems in a
purchased house (services, drains, heating etc) are in "good" working order
(ie they do what they are meant to eg heat the radiators and the water
safely). They are not required to be in perfect working order or efficient
or anything. If the boiler has been neglected for a long time, and is
declared unfit for use without attention by a competent person and it was
not declared by the seller to be unserviced then you would have recourse
against the seller for a service or whatever (but not for replacement). The
cost of pursuing this would make it not worthwhile, however.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) --
*Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
IANAL but I believe there is a legal assumption that major systems in a
purchased house (services, drains, heating etc) are in "good" working
order (ie they do what they are meant to eg heat the radiators and the
water safely). They are not required to be in perfect working order or
efficient or anything. If the boiler has been neglected for a long
time, and is declared unfit for use without attention by a competent
person and it was not declared by the seller to be unserviced then you
would have recourse against the seller for a service or whatever (but
not for replacement). The cost of pursuing this would make it not
worthwhile, however.

It would be very difficult to prove that the fault hadn't developed after
purchase anyway. And certainly not worth the bother of going to court over.

Perhaps this is something the HIPs were meant to cover fully.

--
*The more I learn about women, the more I love my car

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Owain" wrote in message
et...
Toby wrote:
[flue] could come out of the top of the boiler, into a 90 degree bend,
then travel right, then another 90 degree bend, then out the roof,
towards the rear of the house - I will have to have a proper look to see
if that is feasible...

Depending on the boiler model and possibly your roof
construction/materials, it is possible to take a boiler flue horizontally
through the tiles/slates.

I would recommend you get a "Landlords" ie basic safety check done as a
matter of some urgency. This is not usually expensive (£100?) If the
boiler is unsafe you need to know sooner rather than later, and you may
have some recourse against the seller of the house.

Owain

As I am going to replace it, I don't think I will bother - The house was a
repossession, so I don't think I have any comeback, "sold as seen" sort of
sale here, but as soon as I saw the boiler (before I put an offer in), I
knew it would need replacing, coupled with the desire to remove the hot
water cylinder from the bathroom, to facilitate more space in there, so that
was expected, I didn't expect it to be dangerous though, just old,
inefficient, and in the wrong place.

However, between exchange and completion, someone took it upon themselves to
steal two touch light switches (Bare wires left poking out the wall), the
light fitting from the top of the stairs (again, bare wires left dangling),
and a few light bulbs, which I thought was a bit rude, not worth perusing
though...

Toby...

"Owain" wrote in message
news:g42dncJHZ-3VvT_V4p2dnAA@plusnet...
Toby wrote:
As I am going to replace it, I don't think I will bother - The house was
a repossession, so I don't think I have any comeback, "sold as seen" sort
of sale here, ...
However, between exchange and completion, someone took it upon themselves
to steal two touch light switches (Bare wires left poking out the wall),
the light fitting from the top of the stairs (again, bare wires left
dangling), and a few light bulbs, which I thought was a bit rude, not
worth perusing though...

With a reposession you're lucky you've still got floorboards.

Well, quite. My comments related to "normal" sales. I think it would be fair
to say "all bets off" after a reposession!

When I sold a previous house the purchaser wanted to knock money off as the
boiler was "old and needed replacing with a condensing one". I took advice
and was told my only obligation was to leave the house with the heating in
good working order and that was all a purchaser could expect in the absence
of any definite statements. (We exchanged on good terms after a compromise
and a beer).


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In article ,
"Bob Mannix" writes:

IANAL but I believe there is a legal assumption that major systems in a
purchased house (services, drains, heating etc) are in "good" working order

No, it's entirely buyer beware, and buyer's responsibility to get
any surveying/testing done. Only if the seller explicitly waranteed
that such items were in some specific state would you have recourse
later if that wasn't true. In my recent experience of two colleagues
moving, seller's solicitors very strongly advised not filling in any
questionaire which buyer's solicitors are likely to present in
respect of any questions of that sort - you can only provide rope
to hang yourself with.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
IANAL but I believe there is a legal assumption that major systems in
a purchased house (services, drains, heating etc) are in "good"
working order

No, it's entirely buyer beware, and buyer's responsibility to get
any surveying/testing done. Only if the seller explicitly waranteed
that such items were in some specific state would you have recourse
later if that wasn't true. In my recent experience of two colleagues
moving, seller's solicitors very strongly advised not filling in any
questionaire which buyer's solicitors are likely to present in
respect of any questions of that sort - you can only provide rope
to hang yourself with.

That's what I thought. If you think about it how many house owners are
able to give a true and accurate statement about the condition of their
services, etc? And then there's the case that many houses are sold on the
death of the owner - so just who are you going to sue then?
So it makes more sense for the 'buyer beware' system - pay an expert to
have things checked, then you do in theory have redress if things aren't
as they seem. Of course the seller could supply this but then the buyer
couldn't sue the expert.

--
*Windows will never cease *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
IANAL but I believe there is a legal assumption that major systems
in a purchased house (services, drains, heating etc) are in "good"
working order

No, it's entirely buyer beware, and buyer's responsibility to get
any surveying/testing done. Only if the seller explicitly waranteed
that such items were in some specific state would you have recourse
later if that wasn't true. In my recent experience of two colleagues
moving, seller's solicitors very strongly advised not filling in any
questionaire which buyer's solicitors are likely to present in
respect of any questions of that sort - you can only provide rope
to hang yourself with.

That's what I thought. If you think about it how many house owners
are able to give a true and accurate statement about the condition of
their services, etc? And then there's the case that many houses are
sold on the death of the owner - so just who are you going to sue
then? So it makes more sense for the 'buyer beware' system - pay an
expert to have things checked, then you do in theory have redress if
things aren't as they seem.

I agree, and the buyer can concentrate on the things important to them - if
I saw a Potterton Flamingo boiler in a house I was going to buy, the first
thing I'd do is replace it; no point having any tests done on it.

"PM" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
IANAL but I believe there is a legal assumption that major systems
in a purchased house (services, drains, heating etc) are in "good"
working order

No, it's entirely buyer beware, and buyer's responsibility to get
any surveying/testing done. Only if the seller explicitly waranteed
that such items were in some specific state would you have recourse
later if that wasn't true. In my recent experience of two colleagues
moving, seller's solicitors very strongly advised not filling in any
questionaire which buyer's solicitors are likely to present in
respect of any questions of that sort - you can only provide rope
to hang yourself with.

That's what I thought. If you think about it how many house owners
are able to give a true and accurate statement about the condition of
their services, etc? And then there's the case that many houses are
sold on the death of the owner - so just who are you going to sue
then? So it makes more sense for the 'buyer beware' system - pay an
expert to have things checked, then you do in theory have redress if
things aren't as they seem.

I agree, and the buyer can concentrate on the things important to them -
if
I saw a Potterton Flamingo boiler in a house I was going to buy, the first
thing I'd do is replace it; no point having any tests done on it.


I think you [all] missed my point, which was that there was an obligation on
the seller that, when the buyer moved in, the heating should function and
heat the house and the water, the drains should flow, toilets flush and the
lights turn on and off etc., unless you had said otherwise. Having the worst
boiler in the world, as long as it operated, would be no problem. Having a
toilet that took 5mins to fill would be no problem either. Equally, if the
boiler coincidentally fails a week after moving in that's just tough but you
do have to present a "working" house on exchange (unless stated otherwise).


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In article ,
Bob Mannix wrote:
I think you [all] missed my point, which was that there was an
obligation on the seller that, when the buyer moved in, the heating
should function and heat the house and the water, the drains should
flow, toilets flush and the lights turn on and off etc., unless you had
said otherwise.

Can you give some documentation to back this up? It's very different from
my understanding. Why do estate agents blurb always say 'central heating
(not checked)'? Or do round here.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-14, Bob Mannix wrote:


I think you [all] missed my point, which was that there was an obligation
on
the seller that, when the buyer moved in, the heating should function and
heat the house and the water, the drains should flow, toilets flush and
the
lights turn on and off etc., unless you had said otherwise.

No there isn't. All there is is that the house should be "as described".

Exactly, if it is described as having central heating then it should have
(unless there's something that says it doesn't or that it doesn't work).
That was my point!

To answer DP's point, no I was given the advice verbally but yes it will say
("not checked") so that, if it blows up later on they are covered.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In article ,
Owain wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Can you give some documentation to back this up? It's very different
from my understanding. Why do estate agents blurb always say 'central
heating (not checked)'? Or do round here.

Because otherwise the *estate agent* is liable under the Property
Misdescription Act. The requirement for systems to be working etc is in
the sale contract, which is handled by solicitors, not estate agents.

It certainly wasn't in mine. Is this a normal thing these days?

--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.