Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.

"Marky P" wrote in message
...

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me.

Marky P.

Hi Marky

Not sure if it breaks Part P rules but it's decidedly bad practice to add a
spur to a spur (even if the cooker spur is high capacity). It would not be
isolated with all the other sockets which could be misleading to the unwary.
Dishwashers can be a very heavy load and I'd encourage you to incorporate
the new socket into your ring main.

Stuart

On Aug 8, 12:13 pm, "Stuart Kenny" wrote:
"Marky P" wrote in message

...

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me.
Marky P.

Hi Marky

Not sure if it breaks Part P rules but it's decidedly bad practice to add a
spur to a spur (even if the cooker spur is high capacity). It would not be
isolated with all the other sockets which could be misleading to the unwary.
Dishwashers can be a very heavy load and I'd encourage you to incorporate
the new socket into your ring main.

One of the more knowledgable regulars on here (John Rumm perhaps??)
explained that having an arbitrarily complex set of spurs-off-spurs is
fine /provided/ all the cabling is done appropriately for the full
capacity of the fuse that the spur is connected to.

Of course, if the dishwasher and the cooker exceed the spur capacity -
then the fuse (oh all right, MCB) will go.

A little note on the socket might be a good idea.

"Marky P" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.


Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen, but
yes, it can be done.

What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?

"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Marky P" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.


Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen, but
yes, it can be done.

What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:23:44 UTC, "John"
wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Marky P" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.


Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen, but
yes, it can be done.

What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why. Technically, the cooker circuit is a radial circuit, not
a spur. Its cable will be protected by the MCB if it has been installed
correctly.

You need to protect the cable feeding the new socket. That can be done
with an FCU, fused suitably.

Part P still says you aren't allowed to do it yourself...but then, so
what?

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 8 Aug 2008 14:50:52 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why.

Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five
sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to
the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

It can be argued both ways. The convenince of having one socket in a
strategic situation that is not part of the ring main, or a
potentially dangerous situation waiting for the unwary.

I had one of these sockets for fifteen years but got rid of it last
year because I did forget it was live! I was stupid, it hurt, it
won't now.

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:23:44 UTC, "John"
wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Marky P" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.


Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen,
but
yes, it can be done.

What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why. Technically, the cooker circuit is a radial circuit, not
a spur. Its cable will be protected by the MCB if it has been installed
correctly.

You need to protect the cable feeding the new socket. That can be done
with an FCU, fused suitably.

Part P still says you aren't allowed to do it yourself...but then, so
what?

I too can't see how it is bad, after all, some cooker outlets have a 13A
socket on them anyway.
If the MCB is 32A or below, I would use 4mm in the OP's situation (the new
socket will be close to the outlet, as the max continuous draw is 26A,
assuming it's a double socket) (I expect you could use 2.5mm, the same as a
spur of a 32A ring would use, it depends on likely use - if it is just one
dishwasher, then I can't see how 2.5mm won't be acceptable here, but if
there is any chance this new spur will be spurred off again in the future,
then I would use 4mm.

If the MCB is over 32A, then I would be inclined to put a fused spur between
the cooker outlet and the socket, but as anything plugged into the socket
will be fused, it probably isn't necessary.

I would label both the socket and the MCB accordingly, to ensure the correct
MCB is turned off when any future work is carried out.

Toby...
(Not a qualified electrician)

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On 8 Aug 2008 14:50:52 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why.

Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five
sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to
the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

It can be argued both ways. The convenince of having one socket in a
strategic situation that is not part of the ring main, or a
potentially dangerous situation waiting for the unwary.

I had one of these sockets for fifteen years but got rid of it last
year because I did forget it was live! I was stupid, it hurt, it
won't now.


Then just lable it accrdongly - if it is a hidden socket (behind a
dishwasher, for example), use a permanant marker on the socket, so it can't
be removed accidently.

Simple really.

On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:02:09 +0100 EricP wrote :
Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five
sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to
the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

I had this argument with the guy doing the periodic inspection on my
place. The former immersion switch was in the bedroom, nice handy place
and height for a vac socket, so I changed it to a socket and at the CU
end moved the cable into the ring MCB making it a spur. He backed down
but originally argued that I should have left it on its own 16A MCB,
which - for the reason you cite - I thought a seriously bad idea.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 15:09:46 +0100, "Toby"
wrote:

"Marky P" wrote in message
.. .
Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.


Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen, but
yes, it can be done.

What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?

40A

Marky P.

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 17:09:16 +0100, "Toby"
wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:23:44 UTC, "John"
wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
"Marky P" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take
it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest
solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new
socket?

Marky P.


Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen,
but
yes, it can be done.

What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why. Technically, the cooker circuit is a radial circuit, not
a spur. Its cable will be protected by the MCB if it has been installed
correctly.

You need to protect the cable feeding the new socket. That can be done
with an FCU, fused suitably.

Part P still says you aren't allowed to do it yourself...but then, so
what?

I too can't see how it is bad, after all, some cooker outlets have a 13A
socket on them anyway.
If the MCB is 32A or below, I would use 4mm in the OP's situation (the new
socket will be close to the outlet, as the max continuous draw is 26A,
assuming it's a double socket) (I expect you could use 2.5mm, the same as a
spur of a 32A ring would use, it depends on likely use - if it is just one
dishwasher, then I can't see how 2.5mm won't be acceptable here, but if
there is any chance this new spur will be spurred off again in the future,
then I would use 4mm.

If the MCB is over 32A, then I would be inclined to put a fused spur between
the cooker outlet and the socket, but as anything plugged into the socket
will be fused, it probably isn't necessary.

I would label both the socket and the MCB accordingly, to ensure the correct
MCB is turned off when any future work is carried out.

Toby...
(Not a qualified electrician)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I may just stick with my original
plan of using the ring main, to be on the safe side. Just means a
visible wire above the worktop, but it can be covered with trunking.

Cheers again,

Marky P.

EricP wrote:
On 8 Aug 2008 14:50:52 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why.

Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five
sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to
the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

Me!

I test any socket switch, ceiling rose I am about to work on with a volt
stick, then remove the fuse or turn off the breaker, then check with the
volt stick again.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:
EricP wrote:

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

Me!

And me. I generally plug something into the socket before switching off,
so I can observe the light (or whatever) going out. But often, I just
turn off the master isolator anyway - why not? There's probably a few
more egregious bodges that could leave something live even though the
table lamp plugged into it goes out, and it's not like I have any
equipment that needs 24/7 power at all costs.

Pete

In article ,
Pete Verdon d writes:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
EricP wrote:

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

Me!

And me. I generally plug something into the socket before switching off,
so I can observe the light (or whatever) going out. But often, I just
turn off the master isolator anyway - why not? There's probably a few
more egregious bodges that could leave something live even though the
table lamp plugged into it goes out, and it's not like I have any
equipment that needs 24/7 power at all costs.

The normal way of doing this in the US seems to be to short out
the socket and see which breaker trips. This does account for a
small but noticable number of total building loss incidents.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Marky P wrote:

I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for
a dishwasher.

Don't forget to install some socket plugs while you're at it. You don't
want to do half a job.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Pete Verdon d writes:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
EricP wrote:

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

Me!

And me. I generally plug something into the socket before switching off,
so I can observe the light (or whatever) going out. But often, I just
turn off the master isolator anyway - why not? There's probably a few
more egregious bodges that could leave something live even though the
table lamp plugged into it goes out, and it's not like I have any
equipment that needs 24/7 power at all costs.

The normal way of doing this in the US seems to be to short out
the socket and see which breaker trips. This does account for a
small but noticable number of total building loss incidents.

But somewhat safer than finding out the circuit protection is faulty while
you are asleep.
Maybe more people should do it?
There could be a market in 13A test plugs?
(Solder a nail across the pins!)


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Toby wrote:

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On 8 Aug 2008 14:50:52 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why.

Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five
sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to
the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

It can be argued both ways. The convenince of having one socket in a
strategic situation that is not part of the ring main, or a
potentially dangerous situation waiting for the unwary.

I had one of these sockets for fifteen years but got rid of it last
year because I did forget it was live! I was stupid, it hurt, it
won't now.


Then just lable it accrdongly - if it is a hidden socket (behind a
dishwasher, for example), use a permanant marker on the socket, so it
can't be removed accidently.

Simple really.

If it's a hidden socket, that makes the scenario even worse, as it's
quite possible that someone might switch off the circuit and not even
see the label.

Better to attach a large, hi-vis, waterproof A4 warning label securely
to the front of the dishwasher.

Or better yet, wire the socket properly!

David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
Toby wrote:

"EricP" wrote in message
...
On 8 Aug 2008 14:50:52 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

It sounds like appallingly bad practice.

Can't see why.

Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five
sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to
the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!

Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?

It can be argued both ways. The convenince of having one socket in a
strategic situation that is not part of the ring main, or a
potentially dangerous situation waiting for the unwary.

I had one of these sockets for fifteen years but got rid of it last
year because I did forget it was live! I was stupid, it hurt, it
won't now.


Then just lable it accrdongly - if it is a hidden socket (behind a
dishwasher, for example), use a permanant marker on the socket, so it
can't be removed accidently.

Simple really.

If it's a hidden socket, that makes the scenario even worse, as it's quite
possible that someone might switch off the circuit and not even see the
label.

If they were working on this socket they would, unless they were blind or
stupid.
If they were working on the dishwasher, how likley is it someone would not
unplug it first?

Better to attach a large, hi-vis, waterproof A4 warning label securely to
the front of the dishwasher.

Don't be rediculas

Or better yet, wire the socket properly!

David

I didn't suggest the socket was going to be wired improperly.
In the OP's case, the socket would be powering his dishwasher, assuming the
OP wants to work on the dishwasher, he should unplug the dishwasher rather
than tripping off the entire circuit, if he was to work on the socket, he
would need to move the dishwasher to access it, therefore see the warning -
I really fail to see your point here...

AFAIK, it is good practice to have a separate, non RCD protected circuit for
your fridge, freezer and alarm, so if you go on holiday, a trip of the RCD
won't spoil your freezer full of food, or power down the alarm system (which
would cause the external bell to sound for 20 minutes after the battery in
the panel has depleted) - I assume you thing this is bad practice too?