How important is it to do the foundations right for a conservatory? It will
go over an area that is currently half concrete slab (looks thin) and bricks
(a bit wobbly). Can I just get some concrete over the whole lot to level and
strengthen it, or do I need to do some serious digging? The sides would be
wooden. I want to use the room as a dining room, as it is right next to the
kitchen.

The back garden has no access except through the house. It is not possible
to get large pieces of equipment to the rear. Is it possible to have ready
mixed concrete pumped through the house through a hose? Obviously the
quantities required aren't huge, but I don't think you'd get a mixer round
the back. A full wheelbarrow is out of the question as there is a sharp turn
and newly sanded and varnished floors. You'd need to upend it to get round
the corner.

One edge of the conservatory may form the boundary, replacing a rotten
fence. Windows on that side would be painted out, or replaced with ply. Does
this complicate the issue, as this wall would be right on the edge of the
slab? I could build just up to the fence, and just take the fence panel down
when maintaining. This will probably be at the neighbours option.

Christian.

It used to be the case that this wall needs to be half-hour fireproof
and you need building regs approval. I have no idea if this is still
the case; I would check if I were you.

I thought conservatories were a specific exemption to this. Does anyone know
for certain?

In case it makes a differerence, the floor area of proposed conservatory is
approximately 11m2. The ground floor area of house (terraced) is about 36m2,
giving approx 72m2 total area on two floors.

Christian.

Hmm. I'd be tempted to see if a hired concrete mixer would be
gettable in through the house, and then just get bags of sand,
cement, and ballast and do it the hard way.

It would be as easy to get a ocean liner through the house as a mini digger
or concrete mixer. Anything of that size would need to be craned in over the
house.

I suppose you could get one of those tiny mini mixers in, but it would take
an age to make up the required amount and it couldn't be done in one pour,
so would presumably be very weak.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
kitchen.

The back garden has no access except through the house. It is not possible
to get large pieces of equipment to the rear. Is it possible to have ready
mixed concrete pumped through the house through a hose? Obviously the
quantities required aren't huge, but I don't think you'd get a mixer round
the back. A full wheelbarrow is out of the question as there is a sharp turn
and newly sanded and varnished floors. You'd need to upend it to get round
the corner.

You certainly can get concrete pumpers - a house near me had
the solid ground floors re-made using one. IIRC it had a truck
with some hydaulic extending supports to get into the house,
and then flexible pipes to go inside the house. I don't know where
from or how much, but I'd expect a hefty minimum charge.

I thought conservatories were a specific exemption to this. Does anyone
know
for certain?

In case it makes a differerence, the floor area of proposed conservatory
is
approximately 11m2. The ground floor area of house (terraced) is about
36m2,
giving approx 72m2 total area on two floors.

Christian.

You will need both planning permission and building regulations approval if
the conservatory is attached to the house and it exceeds 10% of the existing
floor area. Note that because it is a terraced property the size limits are
smaller.

You will need both planning permission and building regulations
approval if the conservatory is attached to the house and it
exceeds 10% of the existing floor area.

Apparently, though, the 10% applies within a range from 50m3 to 115m3, so
the minimum permitted development rights are 50m3, however small the house.

A very rough estimate of volume is 3 x 3.5 x 3m, which gives 31.5m3, well
within the limits and enough left over for a lean-to over the side of the
kitchen. The house was built in 1909 and there has been no previous
extensions, just a garden shed, not attached in excess of 5m away from where
the conservatory would end.

For building regulations, different rules apply, based on a 30m2 floor area.
Total area will be about 10.5m2.

So I can't see why I'd need Planning Permission or Building Regulations
approval.

Christian.

I suppose you could get one of those tiny mini mixers in, but it would
take
an age to make up the required amount and it couldn't be done in one pour,
so would presumably be very weak.

You would be suprised at how much comes out of a mini mix tripod type mixer
in a day, the only struggle is getting all the materials close by. I wheel
mine through the house OK (90deg corners et al) although it's also possible
to carry it, goes in the back of a small car with the seats down. If it's a
really tight fit, you can remove the drum from a Belle 150.

If you were to mix the foundation for the curtain walling, and the base on
separate days, you would possibly get away with a weekend hire.

A house built as infill behind existing houses 400m from here had a pumped
foundation, the contractors turned up with what looked like enough kit to
build a motorway and *unanounced* closed/blocked the road, until a small
contingent of neighbours pointed out that they still needed to get to work
somehow. The mixer, pump lorry, and gantry/rig/crew lorry stayed out the
front of the site, the vertical gantry was built up out the back to form a
high point for the operators to swing the nozzle about from. It did not look
cheap.
I havn't seen a smaller version of this anywhere, and it doesn't seem to be
in my plant hire brochure as an option.

Toby.

A very rough estimate of volume is 3 x 3.5 x 3m, which gives 31.5m3, well
within the limits and enough left over for a lean-to over the side of the
kitchen. The house was built in 1909 and there has been no previous
extensions, just a garden shed, not attached in excess of 5m away from
where
the conservatory would end.

Apologies I have misread it! I thought the 10% was a lower figure for
terraced properties. I also assume your house is not in a conservation area.

AFAIUI Building regs will apply since it is an extension. The best thing is
to talk to BCO before you do the work since it can be incredibly expensive
to correct. Don't forget the new rules on insulation standards if you are
DIYing the conservatory. You WILL need approval for that unless it is
installed by a FENSTRA registree.

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
I suppose you could get one of those tiny mini mixers in, but it
would take an age to make up the required amount and it couldn't
be done in one pour, so would presumably be very weak.

The limiting factor is how much you can shovel in a day - a bigger
mixer just means fewer larger batches. When I did my foundations I
arranged things so that my Belle Minimix (on swivel stand) was
positioned so as to tip straight into the section being concreted,
and my pile of ballast likewise to go straight into the mixer. You'd
be surprised how much you can do in a day if things are in the right
place.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Apologies I have misread it! I thought the 10% was a lower figure for
terraced properties.

It is. Non-terraced properties seem to get 15% between 70m3 and 115m3. Mine
falls off the bottom anyway, though, hitting the 50m3 minimum. As an
Edwardian building, it has no restriction on permitted development rights
that has been common on more recent estate conveyances.

OTOH, I don't want to use too much permitted rights up. I'm thinking of a
dormer rear roof extension if it can be made to look OK. A quick back of
envelope calculation shows 20m3, so it'll be marginal and probably require
PP, especially if the lean to is constructed. I probably overcooked the
estimate on the conservatory so could probably squeeze both in.

AFAIUI Building regs will apply since it is an extension.

I still think not. Conservatories below 30m2 floor area appear to be exempt,
with loads of conditions that aren't too onerous. It needs to have a
transparent roof, 75% glazed walls, a proper external door between it and
the house, seperately zoned and controlled heating (if heated), below a
certain height etc.

Christian.

Nick Finnigan wrote:

You certainly can get concrete pumpers - a house near me had
the solid ground floors re-made using one. IIRC it had a truck
with some hydaulic extending supports to get into the house,
and then flexible pipes to go inside the house. I don't know where
from or how much, but I'd expect a hefty minimum charge.

It certainly is a heft minimum charge - I was recently quoted
£800 to hire the pumping gear for one day. This didn't include
the concrete.

--
Grunff

AFAIK the rules changed from 1st April this year. A quick call to
the local BCO will confirm or correct. I would appreciate knowing
what they say because the local one here in Somerset suggested
the exemption no longer applied.

Oh. Are the new conditions really bad?

What about flammability? It's going to be wood and on the boundary.

Christian.

Mainly to do with insulation standards but as it was explained to
me if it is attached to the building it is no longer exempt. As
I said before give the BCO a ring and ask. Do it anonymously if
you are concerned!

I'm going to insulate anyway. But there is no way a conservatory would meet
general building regulations. Perhaps the exemption is finished, but only a
tiny subset of rules apply?

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
How important is it to do the foundations right for a conservatory? It
will
go over an area that is currently half concrete slab (looks thin) and
bricks
(a bit wobbly). Can I just get some concrete over the whole lot to level
and
strengthen it, or do I need to do some serious digging? The sides would be
wooden. I want to use the room as a dining room, as it is right next to
the
kitchen.

The back garden has no access except through the house. It is not possible
to get large pieces of equipment to the rear. Is it possible to have ready
mixed concrete pumped through the house through a hose? Obviously the
quantities required aren't huge, but I don't think you'd get a mixer round
the back. A full wheelbarrow is out of the question as there is a sharp
turn
and newly sanded and varnished floors. You'd need to upend it to get round
the corner.

One edge of the conservatory may form the boundary, replacing a rotten
fence. Windows on that side would be painted out, or replaced with ply.
Does
this complicate the issue, as this wall would be right on the edge of the
slab? I could build just up to the fence, and just take the fence panel
down
when maintaining. This will probably be at the neighbours option.

Christian.




This should explain a bit more about it:

http://www.pavingexpert.com/concrete.htm


---
BigWallop

http://basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 10/07/03

I'm going to insulate anyway. But there is no way a conservatory would
meet
general building regulations. Perhaps the exemption is finished, but only
a
tiny subset of rules apply?

Let me make it a bit clearer. Yes the standards for conservatories is lower
than other extensions. This does not alter the fact that they are, if
attached to the main house, subject to building regulations approval.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message .net...
How important is it to do the foundations right for a conservatory?

The sides would be wooden. I want to use the room as a dining room, as it is
right next to the kitchen.

The back garden has no access except through the house. It is not possible
to get large pieces of equipment to the rear.

Any building stands or falls according to its foundations. But why are
you considereing a slab for what is only going to be a lean to? Get a
bore hole auger from a toolhire shop. If the ground is suitable they
work fine if not hard luck. Test it and see. What would it cost to
hire one for a day? a few quid.

Now you can pour concrete piles or sink bitumin treated wooden ones.
If you buy them long enough they will make the sides of your dining
room. Put them in a window wide apart or whatever and there you are
-built in the time it takes to lay the concrete.

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:17:14 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:


I'm going to insulate anyway. But there is no way a conservatory would
meet
general building regulations. Perhaps the exemption is finished, but only
a
tiny subset of rules apply?

Let me make it a bit clearer. Yes the standards for conservatories is lower
than other extensions. This does not alter the fact that they are, if
attached to the main house, subject to building regulations approval.

That isn't what the Statutory Instrument says.....

In the Approved Document to Section L1, paragraphs 1.58 to 1.62 apply
and there is a difference when the conservatory is attached to a new
building vs. an existing one. With a new building, there would be
Building Control involvement anyway.

The situation here is of a conservatory associated with an existing
house. In any event, the conservatory will be *physically* attached,
but that isn't the issue if you read the document. The discussion
there is about *thermal* separation, which is not the same thing.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The situation here is of a conservatory associated with an existing
house. In any event, the conservatory will be *physically* attached,
but that isn't the issue if you read the document. The discussion
there is about *thermal* separation, which is not the same thing.
.andy

Yes but according to the local BCO it IS subject to building control UNLESS
the installation is done by a FENESTA approved installer. Two installations
locally since 1st April have gone through this and not without problems
either. Are you saying that there was no legal basis for this?

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:36:21 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:

The situation here is of a conservatory associated with an existing
house. In any event, the conservatory will be *physically* attached,
but that isn't the issue if you read the document. The discussion
there is about *thermal* separation, which is not the same thing.
.andy

Yes but according to the local BCO it IS subject to building control UNLESS
the installation is done by a FENESTA approved installer. Two installations
locally since 1st April have gone through this and not without problems
either. Are you saying that there was no legal basis for this?


That's what the Statutory Instrument says and so does FENSA.

http://www.fensa.co.uk/cons.phtml

Were the ones that you mention not exempt because they didn't meet one
or other of the requirements perhaps? Also, the applicable date
seems to be April 2002.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Were the ones that you mention not exempt because they didn't meet one
or other of the requirements perhaps? Also, the applicable date
seems to be April 2002.

I must wake up! I of course meant FENSA. Yes I see what you are saying now.
What it comes down to is that Chris did not give enough information to
decide one way or the other. Certainly the local BCo people seem thoroughly
confused about some of the detail. No doubt they have been dropped in the
brown and malodorous. The April 2003 date of course refers to boilers which
on of these schemes involved replacing and relocating that added to the
confusion.

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
How important is it to do the foundations right for a conservatory? It
will
go over an area that is currently half concrete slab (looks thin) and
bricks
(a bit wobbly). Can I just get some concrete over the whole lot to level
and
strengthen it, or do I need to do some serious digging? The sides would
be
wooden. I want to use the room as a dining room, as it is right next to
the
kitchen.

The back garden has no access except through the house. It is not
possible
to get large pieces of equipment to the rear. Is it possible to have
ready
mixed concrete pumped through the house through a hose? Obviously the
quantities required aren't huge, but I don't think you'd get a mixer
round
the back. A full wheelbarrow is out of the question as there is a sharp
turn
and newly sanded and varnished floors. You'd need to upend it to get
round
the corner.

One edge of the conservatory may form the boundary, replacing a rotten
fence. Windows on that side would be painted out, or replaced with ply.
Does
this complicate the issue, as this wall would be right on the edge of
the
slab? I could build just up to the fence, and just take the fence panel
down
when maintaining. This will probably be at the neighbours option.

Christian.




This should explain a bit more about it:

http://www.pavingexpert.com/concrete.htm



Hi Again Christian,

After reading your post again, with a bit more attention this time, I notice
you say one wall will form the boundary of your property. It would then
fall under party wall legislation and may be a problem to build without
special planning permission. I take it you do have planning permission
already for your proposed original site ? If not, stop even thinking about
building anything until you do.

A conservatory falls into two categories. Firstly you have what is refereed
to as a glue on conservatory, which is just a glass covered patio area. It
consists of a small foundation which takes the weight of the people walking
on it, rather than the actual structural weight of the whole build. A glued
on covered patio needs written consent of non-objection from neighbours who
will be looking at the thing when they go into their own property, and is
also regulated by drainage warrants for surface water soak away.

The second type of conservatory is totally different. This type of
conservatory is called an added room to your existing property. Now adding
a room to your property, as you can imagine, brings with it all sorts of
regulation and legislation for ground support (foundations), structural
height (the roofing material) and wall spanning (the size, shape and weight
of the whole thing), all of which must be drawn on paper and submitted to
your local planning department for approval. The local planning and
building control people will inspect the site for any drainage problems,
overlooked area problems (this is in case you have any pervs' about,
remember the see through walls) and any conservation notices on the land
Etc, Etc.

Now you say you'd like to use the area as an actual dining "ROOM", and I
emphasise "room", and therefore, you need to plan for fire break qualities,
escape route plans, thermal regulation properties, floor structure design
(remember, if it collapses while you have guest in it, it is a manslaughter
charge) and insurance restriction for its security qualities.

So, after finding out in more detail what is actually involved, do you still
plan to bang posts into the ground to take a few panes of glass and lay a
couple of pallets on the ground with a plywood sheet over them ? My advice
to you is, "you should now go to an actual company that does them for a
living, and ask how they go about building one of these things". Put your
mind at ease.


---
BigWallop

http://basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 10/07/03

After reading your post again, with a bit more attention this time, I
notice you say one wall will form the boundary of your property. It
would then fall under party wall legislation and may be a problem to
build without special planning permission.

I was under the impression that the Party Wall Act was a toothless tiger
and, in any case, didn't affect what you could build, just the way that you
inform your neighbours.

I take it you do have planning permission already for your proposed
original site ? If not, stop even thinking about building anything
until you do.

I've still seen nothing to suggest that I need planning permission at all.
The proposed conservatory is well within the requirements of my available
permitted development rights and would be so even if made of brick as a
proper habitable room, as I understand it.

My advice to you is, "you should now go to an actual company that does
them for a living, and ask how they go about building one of these things".
Put your mind at ease.

Because I can build one for 4,000 quid myself or pay some scrote with only a
mobile phone number 15,000 to do it for me. This is uk.d-i-y you know!

The only things left for me to find out a

a) What's the definitive answer to the building regulations question? (i.e.
does it need approval, what are the rules applicable).

b) How should I construct the floor/foundations and attach the conservatory
to them?

I've just looked again and I have about 30cm available for a concrete floor,
Jablite and DPM, which I hope is enough.

My guess at the moment is that you construct a concrete floor, with DPM
right to the edge, about 20cm above ground level and just attach the wood
frame to the concrete. Any problems with this? Would a suspended wooden
floor be better?

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
After reading your post again, with a bit more attention this time, I
notice you say one wall will form the boundary of your property. It
would then fall under party wall legislation and may be a problem to
build without special planning permission.

I was under the impression that the Party Wall Act was a toothless tiger
and, in any case, didn't affect what you could build, just the way that
you
inform your neighbours.


http://tinyurl.com/guwe


I take it you do have planning permission already for your proposed
original site ? If not, stop even thinking about building anything
until you do.

I've still seen nothing to suggest that I need planning permission at all.
The proposed conservatory is well within the requirements of my available
permitted development rights and would be so even if made of brick as a
proper habitable room, as I understand it.


http://tinyurl.com/guwe


My advice to you is, "you should now go to an actual company that does
them for a living, and ask how they go about building one of these
things".
Put your mind at ease.

Because I can build one for 4,000 quid myself or pay some scrote with only
a
mobile phone number 15,000 to do it for me. This is uk.d-i-y you know!


http://tinyurl.com/guwe


The only things left for me to find out a

a) What's the definitive answer to the building regulations question?
(i.e.
does it need approval, what are the rules applicable).

b) How should I construct the floor/foundations and attach the
conservatory
to them?

I've just looked again and I have about 30cm available for a concrete
floor,
Jablite and DPM, which I hope is enough.

My guess at the moment is that you construct a concrete floor, with DPM
right to the edge, about 20cm above ground level and just attach the wood
frame to the concrete. Any problems with this? Would a suspended wooden
floor be better?

Christian.





---
BigWallop

http://basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 10/07/03

http://tinyurl.com/guwe

I can't seem to get the tinyurl to work. Could you post the whole URL?

Christian.

From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, The Natural Philosopher
wrote on Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:59:52 +0100:

Hmm. I'd be tempted to see if a hired concrete mixer would be gettable
in through the house, and then just get bags of sand, cement, and
ballast and do it the hard way.

What about a pump over the top of the house. May be a bit expensive
for a conservatory, though.
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson

"Hugo Nebula" wrote
| Hmm. I'd be tempted to see if a hired concrete mixer would be
| gettable in through the house, and then just get bags of sand,
| cement, and ballast and do it the hard way.
| What about a pump over the top of the house. May be a bit
| expensive for a conservatory, though.

How heavy's a little mixer? Would it be hot-air-balloon-able over the house?

Owain

From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, "Christian McArdle"
wrote on Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:14:46
+0100:

The only things left for me to find out a

a) What's the definitive answer to the building regulations question? (i.e.
does it need approval, what are the rules applicable).

A "conservatory" is exempt from the Building Regulations (in England &
Wales) if it meets the following criteria:
1. It is less than 30m² floor area,
2. It is built at ground level (ie, not with an undercroft or on a
balcony),
3. It is an _addition_ to a dwelling, with external quality doors
between it and the house,
4. The roof is transparent or translucent,
5. Any heating should be controlled separately from the remainder of
the house (ie, TRV's on any radiator),
6. It should not contain any controlled services or fittings (any
drainage or heat-producing appliances), and
7. The glazing should comply with the requirements for safety glazing.
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson