but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read drawings,
draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine steels and other
materials using the skills handed down by the *old boys* in the factory.

Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the same
time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a few 10ths of
a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day with
Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other stuff. No one
dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:58 +0100, "RW" wrote:

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.


As evidenced by the following story.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4052837.ece

and yet the government have constantly insisted standards aren't falling.

We are rapidly becomg a Third World country, in learning and culture.

Andy

"RW" wrote

but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine steels
and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old boys* in the
factory.

Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the same
time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a few 10ths
of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day with
Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other stuff. No one
dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.




Tell me about it!!
I run a small drawing office and many of the same rules apply.
Knocking the computer's benefits is rather misplaced though. Having grown
up on the drawing board, seen the introduction of computer aided design and
been responsible for implementing a networked CAD install, I can confirm
that they save days/weeks of work per project compared to the old methods.
HOWEVER... to be a competent and efficient draughtsman you need all the
old-school traits/knowledge that you have mentioned, along with an afinity
for a technology that is constantly changing.
Yes, I too went through the vernier challenge with measurements required to
a few "fousunfs" of an inch. But the key aspect was the experience of the
various trades and methods. Without this, the draftsman is reduced to the
level of "CAD monkey", probably highly skilled in the use of the CAD
software (faster than old timers like me .. 45) but quite capable of drawing
something that simply cannot be made for practical/logistical reasons.
It is then up to the old timers to point out what can and cannot be made.
I consider myself highly fortunate to have found 4 very capable guys and one
average to work with me in the DO. Unfortunately, 3 of the 5 are over 55,
so I'm already having to think ahead to find replacements.

Phil

"Andy Cap" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:58 +0100, "RW" wrote:

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

They don't do maths at school AFAICS, the sort of stuff we did at infants
school and junior school is not in the lower GCSE maths at all.
If you saw the TV program about the kids going to a 1950s school you would
understand, most of the GCSE kids struggled with the 11+ paper used to
select 11 year olds, a few didn't so some must learn something different.

Whatever people say, a GCSE C grade is not the equivalent of an O level or
even a CSE grade 1 as they were.
A GCSE A grade might be but, you can't tell as they are too easy to get.

Its the same at A level, a grade A may be good, but you can't tell. The
spread between the bottom of the A grade and the top is far to much.

More and more people want the actual mark and don't care what the grade is
these days, the grades are meaningless.

Some run their own tests, including all government departments ( I know as I
had to take them even though I have a degree).

"RW" wrote in message
...
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine steels
and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old boys* in the
factory.

Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the same
time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a few 10ths
of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day with
Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other stuff. No one
dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.



Ditto on it all but 12 years earlier even than that ! 1970 to 1975, my
apprenticeship.

Arfa

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Andy Cap" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:58 +0100, "RW" wrote:

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

They don't do maths at school AFAICS, the sort of stuff we did at infants
school and junior school is not in the lower GCSE maths at all.
If you saw the TV program about the kids going to a 1950s school you would
understand, most of the GCSE kids struggled with the 11+ paper used to
select 11 year olds, a few didn't so some must learn something different.

Whatever people say, a GCSE C grade is not the equivalent of an O level or
even a CSE grade 1 as they were.
A GCSE A grade might be but, you can't tell as they are too easy to get.

Its the same at A level, a grade A may be good, but you can't tell. The
spread between the bottom of the A grade and the top is far to much.

More and more people want the actual mark and don't care what the grade is
these days, the grades are meaningless.

Some run their own tests, including all government departments ( I know as
I had to take them even though I have a degree).



The problem is that now we have this 'university culture' that has been
promoted in no small part by this rotten government. Every kid now has this
'divine right to "go to uni", when it should actually be the next level of
education for the very few intellectually supreme kids, as it was when I was
at school. Compared to the kids now - and I've had three of my own pass
right through the school system, so I do know - I am an intellectual giant,
but when I was at grammar school, I was a 'B' grade average 'keep yer 'ead
down and get through it' kid, who certainly wasn't good enough to go on to -
or even *need* - a university education.

Another problem is that they are now teaching all manner of half-arsed
subjects like PSE, that should be being taught at home by parents. Just
think back. How on earth did we fit in two half mornings of PE, and a whole
afternoon of games, and yet still do maths and english *every* day,
including some double periods of both, along with history, geography,
physics, chemistry, biology, german, french, divinity and still have time
for a proper 20 minute assembly every morning plus two quarter hour
playtimes, and a one and a quarter hour lunch break ?

I don't think that letting untrained parents - no matter how well
intentioned - loose in the classroom as 'assistants' to teach such core
skills as reading, is a good idea either. No one now knows the difference
between "bought" and "brought" or "thing" and "think" or "lose" and "loose"
and this is getting passed on. Some of the grammar I see now in newspapers
and magazines, is appalling.

Sorry !! I could rant about this all day ...

Arfa

RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!

Snip

*Applause*

Well said, that RW.

Si - Whose teachers at school still wore gowns!

Arfa Daily wrote:

Sorry !! I could rant about this all day ...

Best not forget about the people that can't spell probbabl...
probabal... prolly !

:¬)

As evidenced by the following story.

Also on the bbc website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7431840.stm

I used to lecture in electronics at a "new university", where a
proportion of students that had completed a level maths had no grasp
of algebra at all. I mean zero, zip! The vast majority had no
intuitive grasp of calculus. Without that a deep understanding of many
topics is not possible. Even with our best efforts, catching up the
earlier years of neglect is near impossible.

I was a postgrad at Imperial - the *average* undergrad student
admitted to my old dept now has 3 straight a's at a level. Imperial
takes a large proportion of foreign students. Immediately on starting
on their degree, those straight-a home students are required to take a
remedial maths course in order to catch up with their foreign student
peers.

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:52:01 UTC, " wrote:

I used to lecture in electronics at a "new university", where a
proportion of students that had completed a level maths had no grasp
of algebra at all. I mean zero, zip! The vast majority had no
intuitive grasp of calculus. Without that a deep understanding of many
topics is not possible. Even with our best efforts, catching up the
earlier years of neglect is near impossible.

I was a postgrad at Imperial - the *average* undergrad student
admitted to my old dept now has 3 straight a's at a level. Imperial
takes a large proportion of foreign students. Immediately on starting
on their degree, those straight-a home students are required to take a
remedial maths course in order to catch up with their foreign student
peers.

We gave up requiring A level maths (computer science degrees) a few
years ago. Too much variation - those who had actually been taught A
level maths, and those who had just been taught to pass it.

Now we require a high-ish overall points score, and interview everybody.

Oh, and we teach all the maths in-house.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

wrote in message
...

As evidenced by the following story.

Also on the bbc website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7431840.stm

The most alarming thing there is "the percentage mark required for a grade C
fell to about 20% in the higher tier GCSE in 2000 and 2006".

20%!!!

Even I could have attained that in 1955.

....

I was a postgrad at Imperial - the *average* undergrad student
admitted to my old dept now has 3 straight a's at a level. Imperial
takes a large proportion of foreign students. Immediately on starting
on their degree, those straight-a home students are required to take a
remedial maths course in order to catch up with their foreign student
peers.

I think that most would benefit from a remedial spoken and written English
course too :-(

Mary

"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in message
...
RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!

Snip

*Applause*

Well said, that RW.

Si - Whose teachers at school still wore gowns!



No offence like,when I said there are "no skilled workers in this country" I
meant in th building game...I mean no one has a steam train or suspension
bridge in their back garden do they? ;-)

All building game trades last as little as a basic course of 13 weeks or
less nowadays and some blokes think they are masters at their trade and it
clearly shows they're not when the job is undertaken.

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:29:15 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

The problem is that now we have this 'university culture' that has been
promoted in no small part by this rotten government. Every kid now has
this 'divine right to "go to uni",

"go to uni" is all marketing ******** anyway. All the old polytechnics,
agricultral colleges etc now call 'em selves The University of region.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 2008-06-03 11:07:42 +0100, "Bob Eager" said:

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:52:01 UTC, " wrote:

I used to lecture in electronics at a "new university", where a
proportion of students that had completed a level maths had no grasp
of algebra at all. I mean zero, zip! The vast majority had no
intuitive grasp of calculus. Without that a deep understanding of many
topics is not possible. Even with our best efforts, catching up the
earlier years of neglect is near impossible.

I was a postgrad at Imperial - the *average* undergrad student
admitted to my old dept now has 3 straight a's at a level. Imperial
takes a large proportion of foreign students. Immediately on starting
on their degree, those straight-a home students are required to take a
remedial maths course in order to catch up with their foreign student
peers.

We gave up requiring A level maths (computer science degrees) a few
years ago. Too much variation - those who had actually been taught A
level maths, and those who had just been taught to pass it.

Now we require a high-ish overall points score, and interview everybody.

Oh, and we teach all the maths in-house.

Needing to teach it as opposed to facilitating the students to learn
for themselves says something as well.....

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Arfa Daily"
saying something like:

Another problem is that they are now teaching all manner of half-arsed
subjects like PSE, that should be being taught at home by parents.

Physical and Sexual Education? Blimey.

--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "RW" saying
something like:

but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

In the late 80s you were lucky to have had an apprenticeship after
Thatcher had finished gutting the industries that traditionally employed
them.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "George"
saying something like:

No offence like,when I said there are "no skilled workers in this country" I
meant in th building game...I mean no one has a steam train or suspension
bridge in their back garden do they? ;-)

You should be more precise in your trolling, then.

All building game trades last as little as a basic course of 13 weeks or
less nowadays and some blokes think they are masters at their trade and it
clearly shows they're not when the job is undertaken.

The problem of the Nine-Day Wonders has always been with us, going right
back to the 70s and before. I distinctly recall, as an apprentice,
working alongside a couple of blokes who'd done a three month course and
were being paid full rates for the job.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:07:10 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-06-03 11:07:42 +0100, "Bob Eager" said:

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:52:01 UTC, " wrote:

I used to lecture in electronics at a "new university", where a
proportion of students that had completed a level maths had no grasp
of algebra at all. I mean zero, zip! The vast majority had no
intuitive grasp of calculus. Without that a deep understanding of many
topics is not possible. Even with our best efforts, catching up the
earlier years of neglect is near impossible.

I was a postgrad at Imperial - the *average* undergrad student
admitted to my old dept now has 3 straight a's at a level. Imperial
takes a large proportion of foreign students. Immediately on starting
on their degree, those straight-a home students are required to take a
remedial maths course in order to catch up with their foreign student
peers.

We gave up requiring A level maths (computer science degrees) a few
years ago. Too much variation - those who had actually been taught A
level maths, and those who had just been taught to pass it.

Now we require a high-ish overall points score, and interview everybody.

Oh, and we teach all the maths in-house.

Needing to teach it as opposed to facilitating the students to learn
for themselves says something as well.....

Not precisely sure what you're getting at here. To them, maths is a tool
they need to master quickly; they are taught in the standard university
way of lectures backed up by small group practice.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!
Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine
steels and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old
boys* in the factory.
Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the
same time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a
few 10ths of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day
with Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other
stuff. No one dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper
and Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere
courtesy of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work
and need a "reboot" when they slow down.

RW,

For once, a heading and subject that I totally agreed with - I did my 'five
years hard labour' between 1964 and 1969 but within the building maintenance
trade - computers were the size of a bloody mansion and electronic pocket
calculators... they didn't exist then, nor were the portable electric tools
that common - they were just variations on the size of electric drill that
could be bought for a fortune.

And that's when apprentices were 'abused' on a very regular basis by all and
sundry as gofers and picking up all the crap jobs that the tradesmen didn't
want to do (and also being the butt of every practical joke known to the
building trade) - and if you complained, woe betide you.

Yes, you learned to stand on your own two feet very early on.

Do that today, and the poor little youngsters run home and tell mother - and
then the firm and its employees are prosecuted for abusing the youngsters
human rights.

Tanner-'op

"Tanner-'op" wrote in message
...
RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!
Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine
steels and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old
boys* in the factory.
Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the
same time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a
few 10ths of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day
with Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other
stuff. No one dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper
and Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere
courtesy of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work
and need a "reboot" when they slow down.

RW,

For once, a heading and subject that I totally agreed with - I did my
'five years hard labour' between 1964 and 1969 but within the building
maintenance trade - computers were the size of a bloody mansion and
electronic pocket calculators... they didn't exist then, nor were the
portable electric tools that common - they were just variations on the
size of electric drill that could be bought for a fortune.

And that's when apprentices were 'abused' on a very regular basis by all
and sundry as gofers and picking up all the crap jobs that the tradesmen
didn't want to do (and also being the butt of every practical joke known
to the building trade) - and if you complained, woe betide you.

Yes, you learned to stand on your own two feet very early on.

Do that today, and the poor little youngsters run home and tell mother -
and then the firm and its employees are prosecuted for abusing the
youngsters human rights.

Tanner-'op

My apprenticeship was in the electronics service business. I was made to
gofer, sweep up, make tea, and anything else that was deemed necessary to
the 'real' engineers being able to do the skilled job that they were paid
for. I had a primary mentor, and it was my job to learn from him, and his to
teach me. I was also the butt end of many jokes - often felt to be cruel. I
didn't much like it at the time, but got to do it back later, when I had my
own apprentice. I don't actually think that this sort of 'treatment' - and
it really wasn't actually malicious - did us any harm at all. I think it was
actually carefully designed into the grand scheme of things to put you back
in your place, after you had risen to the top at senior school, and thought
that you were the dog's ********, who knew it all. A bit like the transition
from junior to senior school. It was a good character building exercise, and
I think it gave you the opportunity to genuinely 'earn' the respect of the
old hands in whatever game you had chosen ...

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

And that's when apprentices were 'abused' on a very regular basis by all
and sundry as gofers and picking up all the crap jobs that the tradesmen
didn't want to do (and also being the butt of every practical joke known
to the building trade) - and if you complained, woe betide you.

Yes, you learned to stand on your own two feet very early on.

Do that today, and the poor little youngsters run home and tell mother -
and then the firm and its employees are prosecuted for abusing the
youngsters human rights.

My apprenticeship was in the electronics service business. I was made to
gofer, sweep up, make tea, and anything else that was deemed necessary to
the 'real' engineers being able to do the skilled job that they were paid
for. I had a primary mentor, and it was my job to learn from him, and his
to teach me. I was also the butt end of many jokes - often felt to be
cruel. I didn't much like it at the time, but got to do it back later,
when I had my own apprentice. I don't actually think that this sort of
'treatment' - and it really wasn't actually malicious - did us any harm at
all. I think it was actually carefully designed into the grand scheme of
things to put you back in your place, after you had risen to the top at
senior school, and thought that you were the dog's ********, who knew it
all. A bit like the transition from junior to senior school. It was a good
character building exercise, and I think it gave you the opportunity to
genuinely 'earn' the respect of the old hands in whatever game you had
chosen ...

They used to say the same about bullying at schools. Bullying breeds the
next generation of ****s.

Getting people to do the crap stuff as a way in, fine. Cruelty/abuse, no.

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:10:18 +0100, "Clive George"
wrote:

A bit like the transition from junior to senior school. It was a good
character building exercise, and I think it gave you the opportunity to
genuinely 'earn' the respect of the old hands in whatever game you had
chosen ...

They used to say the same about bullying at schools. Bullying breeds the
next generation of ****s.

Getting people to do the crap stuff as a way in, fine. Cruelty/abuse, no.

Difficult one. I used to go home and say I hated one of the guys that trained
me, simply because he initially hounded me, but gradually I grew to respect him
and eventually we became close colleagues and I would say he had the greatest
influence in making me both fairly good at and love what I did. It could be
described as bullying today I suspect, but perhaps that potential would not have
been realised without some vigorous encouragement, shall we say.

In a way, it's not dissimilar to my dad, who I thought was pretty severe at the
time, but looking back I wouldn't have it any other way, apart from perhaps
having a chance to know him a little better later in life, but he was an older
dad.

Andy

"Clive George" wrote


it gave you the opportunity to
genuinely 'earn' the respect of the old hands in whatever game you had
chosen ...


That presumes that the "old hands" deserved respect.
Much bullying was done in my apprenticeship days by the guys 2 or 3 years
out of apprenticeship.
Almost quit engineering as a result!

They used to say the same about bullying at schools. Bullying breeds the
next generation of ****s.


A very likely if unsubstantiated statement.


Getting people to do the crap stuff as a way in, fine. Cruelty/abuse, no.

Agreed

Phil

"Tanner-'op" wrote in message
...
RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!
Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine
steels and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old
boys* in the factory.
Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the
same time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a
few 10ths of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day
with Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other
stuff. No one dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper
and Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere
courtesy of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work
and need a "reboot" when they slow down.

RW,

For once, a heading and subject that I totally agreed with - I did my
'five years hard labour' between 1964 and 1969 but within the building
maintenance trade - computers were the size of a bloody mansion and
electronic pocket calculators... they didn't exist then, nor were the
portable electric tools that common - they were just variations on the
size of electric drill that could be bought for a fortune.

And that's when apprentices were 'abused' on a very regular basis by all
and sundry as gofers and picking up all the crap jobs that the tradesmen
didn't want to do (and also being the butt of every practical joke known
to the building trade) - and if you complained, woe betide you.

Yes, you learned to stand on your own two feet very early on.

Do that today, and the poor little youngsters run home and tell mother -
and then the firm and its employees are prosecuted for abusing the
youngsters human rights.

*AND* you missed off the "End of Apprenticeship" passing out "parade"

Which, IIRC in my day (My experience) was.....

Dragged forcibly to the toilets by the women (Almost human ones too!), had
one burly woman sit on my face (No knickers either), the rest taking turns
at Swarfeg'aing my nether regions (Which by this time had swollen to their
usual large proportions assisted by the oldest womans right hand) then tied
to a trolley with trousers around my ankles through the entire PCB and
Wiring shop, to assembly, and out to the main workshop past the loudly
applauding men that proceeded to throw sand, dog ends and sawdust onto the
Swarfega'd area.

The end of this parade in the car park outside the Main Office was concluded
by one of the women (and I use the term loosely) rubbing in the remains of
now slightly abrasive cleaner/sand/sawdust and dog ends into my trousers off
of my rather now sorry looking bits as a reminder for when I got home.

I was 21 FFS !!

Now *thats* what I call finishing your apprenticeship in style !

Kids today would scream for mercy and have the bloody lot in court for
assault.

wrote in message
...

As evidenced by the following story.

Also on the bbc website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7431840.stm

I used to lecture in electronics at a "new university", where a
proportion of students that had completed a level maths had no grasp
of algebra at all. I mean zero, zip! The vast majority had no
intuitive grasp of calculus. Without that a deep understanding of many
topics is not possible. Even with our best efforts, catching up the
earlier years of neglect is near impossible.

I was a postgrad at Imperial - the *average* undergrad student
admitted to my old dept now has 3 straight a's at a level. Imperial
takes a large proportion of foreign students. Immediately on starting
on their degree, those straight-a home students are required to take a
remedial maths course in order to catch up with their foreign student
peers.


It wasn't like that when I went there, nor did they ask for straight As, in
fact they asked for two Cs and then said don't worry too much if you don't
get them, late 70's

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

wrote in message
...

As evidenced by the following story.

Also on the bbc website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7431840.stm

The most alarming thing there is "the percentage mark required for a grade
C fell to about 20% in the higher tier GCSE in 2000 and 2006".

20%!!!

Even I could have attained that in 1955.

I could and I had only been conceived. ;-)

It wasn't like that when I went there, nor did they ask for straight As, in
fact they asked for two Cs and then said don't worry too much if you don't
get them, late 70's

My old supervisor is now head of undergrad admissions for Elec Eng -
so I got it from the horse's mouth.

I think your experience illustrates the grade inflation problem,
coupled with Imperial's outstanding worldwide reputation.

The rector has just announced that Imperial will shift to using it's
own entrance exam for exactly the reasons I described:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7434463.stm

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:10:38 UTC, " wrote:

It wasn't like that when I went there, nor did they ask for straight As, in
fact they asked for two Cs and then said don't worry too much if you don't
get them, late 70's

My old supervisor is now head of undergrad admissions for Elec Eng -
so I got it from the horse's mouth.

I'm Director of Admissions at another SE university, for computer
science. We ask for an A and two Bs, but also require an interview. If
we are unsure, that can last up to an hour.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

wrote in message
...

It wasn't like that when I went there, nor did they ask for straight As,
in
fact they asked for two Cs and then said don't worry too much if you
don't
get them, late 70's

My old supervisor is now head of undergrad admissions for Elec Eng -
so I got it from the horse's mouth.

I think your experience illustrates the grade inflation problem,
coupled with Imperial's outstanding worldwide reputation.

The rector has just announced that Imperial will shift to using it's
own entrance exam for exactly the reasons I described:

Hm.. I was there for physics.
I didn't have an interview either..
I turned up for one and was sitting there with five others and the guy came
into the room and said "right we are going to be offering you all a place so
lets go and have a look around".

Someone told me its the way things were done.. if you applied and they
wanted you they made a low offer, if they didn't want you they made a high
offer. The opposite of what many people think. It had nothing to do with
what grades I was expecting as I was sitting the S level exams as well as
the A levels. (S level was the higher exam above A level before the
government decided muddy the water for the youngsters here.)

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "RW" saying
something like:

but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

In the late 80s you were lucky to have had an apprenticeship after
Thatcher had finished gutting the industries that traditionally employed
them.

Formal, yes, but we got loads of students at Hatfield Poly - as it was
then, now the university of somewhere or other - to work for us in their
vacs. And bloody good they were too. A few joined us later..and at least
a couple of others went on to run their own electrical installation
business..the quality of work was excellent.

If they were willing to work for not too much for a bit till they had
learned the ropes, we were willing to employ them.

Andy Cap wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:10:18 +0100, "Clive George"
wrote:

A bit like the transition from junior to senior school. It was a good
character building exercise, and I think it gave you the opportunity to
genuinely 'earn' the respect of the old hands in whatever game you had
chosen ...
They used to say the same about bullying at schools. Bullying breeds the
next generation of ****s.

Getting people to do the crap stuff as a way in, fine. Cruelty/abuse, no.

Difficult one. I used to go home and say I hated one of the guys that trained
me, simply because he initially hounded me, but gradually I grew to respect him
and eventually we became close colleagues and I would say he had the greatest
influence in making me both fairly good at and love what I did. It could be
described as bullying today I suspect, but perhaps that potential would not have
been realised without some vigorous encouragement, shall we say.

In a way, it's not dissimilar to my dad, who I thought was pretty severe at the
time, but looking back I wouldn't have it any other way, apart from perhaps
having a chance to know him a little better later in life, but he was an older
dad.

Andy

There is a world of difference between someone who is being hard in
order to teach important lessons, and someone who is a mindless sadist.

The sort of army dictat that 'No matter how hard I am on you, a genuine
enemy will be a lot worse' is one thing.

The 'you are in my power and if I choose to make you miserable unless
you kiss my arse' is quite another.

The only lesson you learn from people like that is how to get out from
under and survive. And to have no compunction in treating them as they
treated you. And its not worth the pain mostly.

"RW" wrote in message
...

"Tanner-'op" wrote in message
...
RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!
Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine
steels and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old
boys* in the factory.
Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the
same time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a
few 10ths of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day
with Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other
stuff. No one dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper
and Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere
courtesy of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work
and need a "reboot" when they slow down.

RW,

For once, a heading and subject that I totally agreed with - I did my
'five years hard labour' between 1964 and 1969 but within the building
maintenance trade - computers were the size of a bloody mansion and
electronic pocket calculators... they didn't exist then, nor were the
portable electric tools that common - they were just variations on the
size of electric drill that could be bought for a fortune.

And that's when apprentices were 'abused' on a very regular basis by all
and sundry as gofers and picking up all the crap jobs that the tradesmen
didn't want to do (and also being the butt of every practical joke known
to the building trade) - and if you complained, woe betide you.

Yes, you learned to stand on your own two feet very early on.

Do that today, and the poor little youngsters run home and tell mother -
and then the firm and its employees are prosecuted for abusing the
youngsters human rights.

*AND* you missed off the "End of Apprenticeship" passing out "parade"

Which, IIRC in my day (My experience) was.....

Dragged forcibly to the toilets by the women (Almost human ones too!), had
one burly woman sit on my face (No knickers either), the rest taking turns
at Swarfeg'aing my nether regions (Which by this time had swollen to their
usual large proportions assisted by the oldest womans right hand) then
tied to a trolley with trousers around my ankles through the entire PCB
and Wiring shop, to assembly, and out to the main workshop past the loudly
applauding men that proceeded to throw sand, dog ends and sawdust onto the
Swarfega'd area.

The end of this parade in the car park outside the Main Office was
concluded by one of the women (and I use the term loosely) rubbing in the
remains of now slightly abrasive cleaner/sand/sawdust and dog ends into my
trousers off of my rather now sorry looking bits as a reminder for when I
got home.

I was 21 FFS !!

Now *thats* what I call finishing your apprenticeship in style !

Was that in Coventry by any chance?

I may know who has the photos.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "RW" saying
something like:

The end of this parade in the car park outside the Main Office was concluded
by one of the women (and I use the term loosely) rubbing in the remains of
now slightly abrasive cleaner/sand/sawdust and dog ends into my trousers off
of my rather now sorry looking bits as a reminder for when I got home.

I was 21 FFS !!

But compared to the collection of auld harridans you were a fresh young
thing.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:35:26 +0100, RW wrote:

Now *thats* what I call finishing your apprenticeship in style !

Aye, most long standing cultures have some form of ritualised passing from
youngster to adult. Such a ritual has a lot going for it IMHO.

Kids today would scream for mercy and have the bloody lot in court for
assault.

They certainly would, load of wuzzes. I bet you didn't like that "passing
out parade" one little bit but I bet you knew it was coming and knew that
if you took it in your stride the chaps in the works would welcome you as
"one of them" and the ladies would tend your needs as their own son. Whimp
out and you wouldn't be "in".

--
Cheers
Dave.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"RW" wrote in message
...

"Tanner-'op" wrote in message
...
RW wrote:
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the
bloody burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the
edges!
Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings, draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine
steels and other materials using the skills handed down by the *old
boys* in the factory.
Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the
same time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a
few 10ths of a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day
with Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other
stuff. No one dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper
and Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere
courtesy of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work
and need a "reboot" when they slow down.

RW,

For once, a heading and subject that I totally agreed with - I did my
'five years hard labour' between 1964 and 1969 but within the building
maintenance trade - computers were the size of a bloody mansion and
electronic pocket calculators... they didn't exist then, nor were the
portable electric tools that common - they were just variations on the
size of electric drill that could be bought for a fortune.

And that's when apprentices were 'abused' on a very regular basis by all
and sundry as gofers and picking up all the crap jobs that the tradesmen
didn't want to do (and also being the butt of every practical joke known
to the building trade) - and if you complained, woe betide you.

Yes, you learned to stand on your own two feet very early on.

Do that today, and the poor little youngsters run home and tell mother -
and then the firm and its employees are prosecuted for abusing the
youngsters human rights.

*AND* you missed off the "End of Apprenticeship" passing out "parade"

Which, IIRC in my day (My experience) was.....

Dragged forcibly to the toilets by the women (Almost human ones too!),
had one burly woman sit on my face (No knickers either), the rest taking
turns at Swarfeg'aing my nether regions (Which by this time had swollen
to their usual large proportions assisted by the oldest womans right
hand) then tied to a trolley with trousers around my ankles through the
entire PCB and Wiring shop, to assembly, and out to the main workshop
past the loudly applauding men that proceeded to throw sand, dog ends and
sawdust onto the Swarfega'd area.

The end of this parade in the car park outside the Main Office was
concluded by one of the women (and I use the term loosely) rubbing in the
remains of now slightly abrasive cleaner/sand/sawdust and dog ends into
my trousers off of my rather now sorry looking bits as a reminder for
when I got home.

I was 21 FFS !!

Now *thats* what I call finishing your apprenticeship in style !

Was that in Coventry by any chance?

I may know who has the photos.


LOL!

Nah.........NW Kent

In message , RW
writes
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read drawings,
draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine steels and other
materials using the skills handed down by the *old boys* in the factory.

Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the same
time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a few 10ths of
a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day with
Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other stuff. No one
dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.

Do you feel better now, dear ?




--
geoff

In message , Andy Cap
writes
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:56:58 +0100, "RW" wrote:

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.


As evidenced by the following story.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4052837.ece

and yet the government have constantly insisted standards aren't falling.

We are rapidly becomg a Third World country, in learning and culture.

Yesterday ...

"Can I lend £10 off you ?"



--
geoff

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:40:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "RW" saying
something like:

but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

In the late 80s you were lucky to have had an apprenticeship after
Thatcher had finished gutting the industries that traditionally employed
them.

Formal, yes, but we got loads of students at Hatfield Poly - as it was
then, now the university of somewhere or other - to work for us in their
vacs. And bloody good they were too. A few joined us later..and at least
a couple of others went on to run their own electrical installation
business..the quality of work was excellent.

If they were willing to work for not too much for a bit till they had
learned the ropes, we were willing to employ them.

They must have been the ones that didn't use "The Elephant Bar" (Student
Union). BTW, it's now The University of Hertfordshire & believe it or not
Degrees obtained through the old Poly were set by and classed as Cambridge
Degrees.

Don.

Don.

"Cerberus ." wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:40:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "RW" saying
something like:

but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s
when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

In the late 80s you were lucky to have had an apprenticeship after
Thatcher had finished gutting the industries that traditionally employed
them.

Formal, yes, but we got loads of students at Hatfield Poly - as it was
then, now the university of somewhere or other - to work for us in their
vacs. And bloody good they were too. A few joined us later..and at least
a couple of others went on to run their own electrical installation
business..the quality of work was excellent.

If they were willing to work for not too much for a bit till they had
learned the ropes, we were willing to employ them.

They must have been the ones that didn't use "The Elephant Bar" (Student
Union). BTW, it's now The University of Hertfordshire & believe it or not
Degrees obtained through the old Poly were set by and classed as Cambridge
Degrees.


Shirley they weren't that bad?

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , RW writes
but we're the ones that did a 5 year apprenticeship back in late 80s when
College and Uni "Teachers" were old school who bellowed "Get the bloody
burrs off this work before I cut my fukin fingers off on the edges!

Taught (with much emphasis on accuracy) how to read verniers, read
drawings,
draw drawings using pencil and a proper board, machine steels and other
materials using the skills handed down by the *old boys* in the factory.

Worked to the same standards as everyone else in the factory at the same
time scales. Got the same bollockings for geting things even a few 10ths
of
a thou out.

Computers?!?!?!?

We had a time-shared lump in a clean room that shared an hour a day with
Honeywell in the States for "complex" calculations and other stuff. No one
dare touch it in case the paper tape spewed out!

As for pocket calculators..........what happened to pencil and paper and
Tables?

****in kids today aren't born they're produced in a lab somewhere courtesy
of a Windoze program!

Hence why they don't work, stop too often when they actually do work and
need a "reboot" when they slow down.

Do you feel better now, dear ?

I feel fine Gran...Ta for asking.....