I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I still
use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

ARWadworth wrote:
I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.


Not much of an answer - but I just used some out-of-date stuff. Mind,
the ground the posts went into is halfway to concrete and both holes
have concrete on at least one side so I am only really concerned over
the stuff holding itself together. Seems to have set OK.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in
it, IME, yes.

OTOH, it is cheap and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence
posts, so if you have need for a visit to the builders merchants for
other things, I would buy fresh cement.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4837d7ca@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in it,
IME, yes.

OTOH, it is cheap and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence
posts, so if you have need for a visit to the builders merchants for other
things, I would buy fresh cement.


I also have a path to concrete. Foot traffic only and it will eventually
have paving slabs on top. I might buy new cement for the posts and use the
old stuff for the path. It has been stored indoors not a shed and seems to
be in good condition.

Adam

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4837d7ca@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in
it, IME, yes.



and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence
posts,

I know. I have dug the holes already. Have a look at my DIY depth measure.

http://i25.tinypic.com/9k5xqt.jpg

Adam

ARWadworth wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4837d7ca@qaanaaq...

On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have
just noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month.
Can I still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in
it, IME, yes.

and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence posts,

I know. I have dug the holes already. Have a look at my DIY depth measure.

http://i25.tinypic.com/9k5xqt.jpg

Adam

At that age I suppose he is a metric measure?
Do you use his grandad for the imperial measurements?
;-)

I know. I have dug the holes already. Have a look at my DIY depth measure.
http://i25.tinypic.com/9k5xqt.jpg

LOL

In article 4837d7ca@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in
it, IME, yes.

Some of it will have set into an inactive power, so just use a
bit more than you would have otherwise done. I had a bag of
premixed sand and cement in the shed for nearly 10 years and
it was still working at the end, but was probably making a
rather weak mortar at that point, although the pointing I did
with it is still rock solid 10 years later on.

OTOH, it is cheap and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence
posts, so if you have need for a visit to the builders merchants for
other things, I would buy fresh cement.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"ARWadworth" wrote:

I also have a path to concrete. Foot traffic only and it will eventually
have paving slabs on top. I might buy new cement for the posts and use the
old stuff for the path. It has been stored indoors not a shed and seems to
be in good condition.


Cement is incredibly hygroscopic - meaning it powerfully absorbs
moisture. Even if kept indoors, there is always moisture in the air
and cement will absorb it and partially hydrate. If you leave a bag
of cement long enough it will almost completely hydrate and you will
be left with one large lump - cement bags do not include an effective
barrier to moisture.

Cement is not ridiculously expensive, so I would recommend that you
replace it with new.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "ARWadworth"
saying something like:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I still
use it?

It's fine - as long as the bags weren't stored in the damp. Now if it
had been a couple of years old I'd have said no - I found that out.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House

In message , ARWadworth
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4837d7ca@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have
just noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this
month. Can I still use it?
Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.
Adam
As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps
in it, IME, yes.



and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence posts,

I know. I have dug the holes already. Have a look at my DIY depth measure.

http://i25.tinypic.com/9k5xqt.jpg

Uk.d-i-y has a new troll


--
geoff

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
"ARWadworth" wrote:

I also have a path to concrete. Foot traffic only and it will eventually
have paving slabs on top. I might buy new cement for the posts and use the
old stuff for the path. It has been stored indoors not a shed and seems to
be in good condition.


Cement is incredibly hygroscopic - meaning it powerfully absorbs
moisture. Even if kept indoors, there is always moisture in the air
and cement will absorb it and partially hydrate. If you leave a bag
of cement long enough it will almost completely hydrate and you will
be left with one large lump - cement bags do not include an effective
barrier to moisture.

Cement is not ridiculously expensive, so I would recommend that you
replace it with new.

Interesting info. I have just opened a bag and the cement is what I call
"fluffy". Usually I see cement stored outside on a building site and covered
over with plastic sheets. This stuff has only sat in my lounge for a few
months. The packed date is exactly 2 months earlier than the use by date.

Adam

ARWadworth wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4837d7ca@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in it,
IME, yes.

OTOH, it is cheap and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence
posts, so if you have need for a visit to the builders merchants for other
things, I would buy fresh cement.


I also have a path to concrete. Foot traffic only and it will eventually
have paving slabs on top. I might buy new cement for the posts and use the
old stuff for the path. It has been stored indoors not a shed and seems to
be in good condition.

Adam

It should be fine, it'll have turned to lumps or one big lump if it
isnt.
If in doubt, mix a spoonful with 3 of sand and let it set overnight,
check its ok.

I'd use the perfect cement for the path and anything doubtful for the
posts. Posts dont need any cement at all to stay firmly in place.
Paths otoh rely on it.


NT

ARWadworth wrote:

Interesting info. I have just opened a bag and the cement is what I call
"fluffy". Usually I see cement stored outside on a building site and
covered over with plastic sheets. This stuff has only sat in my lounge
for a few months. The packed date is exactly 2 months earlier than the
use by date.

Plastic bags or paper?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:

It should be fine, it'll have turned to lumps or one big lump if it
isnt.

Alas untrue. It can hydrate from the moisture in the air and lose
most of its strength while still appearing powdery.

If in doubt, mix a spoonful with 3 of sand and let it set overnight,
check its ok.

That won't tell you very much.

After such a short time in storage, there will still be enough
unhydrated cement to obtain a set. The question is, how much has
already hydrated? The answer is, you can have no idea.

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , ARWadworth
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4837d7ca@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-24 09:40:20 +0100, "ARWadworth"
said:

I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?
Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.
Adam
As long as it has been kept dry and doesn't have lots of hard lumps in
it, IME, yes.



and it is a pain digging out for and putting in fence posts,

I know. I have dug the holes already. Have a look at my DIY depth measure.

http://i25.tinypic.com/9k5xqt.jpg

Uk.d-i-y has a new troll

I have just spoilt the trolls hide out.

http://i29.tinypic.com/xcredw.jpg

New cement used to set the post.

Adam

"ARWadworth" wrote in message
...
I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam

My local builder merch. says they are fine for 6 months after use by
date...as long as it has not hardened into lumps!

Steve

"ARWadworth" wrote:

I have just spoilt the trolls hide out.

http://i29.tinypic.com/xcredw.jpg


Nice job.


New cement used to set the post.


Good decision. ;-)

"Mr Sandman" wrote:

My local builder merch. says they are fine for 6 months after use by
date...as long as it has not hardened into lumps!


Ask him to back that up with a warranty.

ARWadworth wrote:
I will be putting some fence posts up over the weekend and I have just
noticed the use by date on my cemet was the start of this month. Can I
still use it?

Buying new is not a problem but it seems a waste.

Adam
it wont be quite as good, but it will work. as long as it is still powdery.

Bruce wrote:
wrote:
It should be fine, it'll have turned to lumps or one big lump if it
isnt.

Alas untrue. It can hydrate from the moisture in the air and lose
most of its strength while still appearing powdery.

If in doubt, mix a spoonful with 3 of sand and let it set overnight,
check its ok.

That won't tell you very much.

After such a short time in storage, there will still be enough
unhydrated cement to obtain a set. The question is, how much has
already hydrated? The answer is, you can have no idea.

You obviously can't. Anyone else can, just by the feel. It goes crunchy
when partly hydrated. So use a little more..the rest has just turned
into an expensive sand..;-)

All cement does is top the sand grains moving around. All the sand does
is stop the aggregate moving around.

If this was a prestressed concrete beam holding up a nuclear shelter,
I'd be worried. For fence posts in the ground? heck you can set them in
pure fresh soil rammed down...

Bruce wrote:
"Mr Sandman" wrote:
My local builder merch. says they are fine for 6 months after use by
date...as long as it has not hardened into lumps!


Ask him to back that up with a warranty.

can't bear to be wrong, can you?

I've never seen a warranty on a new bag of cement either.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You obviously can't.

On the contrary, I have studied cement and concrete technology over
quite a few years. My work has involved concrete mix designs,
strength and durability testing.

Anyone else can, just by the feel.

Bull.

It goes crunchy when partly hydrated.

By that stage, it is very far gone. Cement will lose up to half its
strength without you ever being able to feel it.

So use a little more..the rest has just turned
into an expensive sand..;-)

All cement does is top the sand grains moving around.

Complete nonsense. The cement/water paste acts as an adhesive,
coating the fine and coarse aggregate to hold the whole mix together,
and giving the whole mix its fundamental strength.

All the sand does
is stop the aggregate moving around.

You really do talk so much rubbish.

Without the hydrated cement, it could do no such thing.

So, plonk! And goodbye.

Bruce wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You obviously can't.

On the contrary, I have studied cement and concrete technology over
quite a few years. My work has involved concrete mix designs,
strength and durability testing.

Anyone else can, just by the feel.

Bull.

It goes crunchy when partly hydrated.

By that stage, it is very far gone. Cement will lose up to half its
strength without you ever being able to feel it.

So use a little more..the rest has just turned
into an expensive sand..;-)

All cement does is top the sand grains moving around.

Complete nonsense. The cement/water paste acts as an adhesive,
coating the fine and coarse aggregate to hold the whole mix together,
and giving the whole mix its fundamental strength.


er. that's actually a perfect way of saying exactly what I said.


All the sand does
is stop the aggregate moving around.

You really do talk so much rubbish.

Without the hydrated cement, it could do no such thing.

? oh dear. Yu do have problems with understanding te physics of
adhesives and fillers.


So, plonk! And goodbye.


Fine by me.

Bruce wrote:
wrote:

It should be fine, it'll have turned to lumps or one big lump if it
isnt.

Alas untrue. It can hydrate from the moisture in the air and lose
most of its strength while still appearing powdery.

If in doubt, mix a spoonful with 3 of sand and let it set overnight,
check its ok.

That won't tell you very much.


course it does, it tells you if it sets like rock or not. The only
downside if you'd have to wait a few days to see if reasonable
strength is building up.

But Adam said its been a few months in the lounge, so no worries
there! You can keep cement a few years in dry storage and it still
sets hard.


NT

Bruce wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It goes crunchy when partly hydrated.

By that stage, it is very far gone. Cement will lose up to half its
strength without you ever being able to feel it.

so for setting fence posts, no problem whatsoever. End of issue.


NT

On Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:35 GMT, ARWadworth wrote:

http://i29.tinypic.com/xcredw.jpg

When are they goping to finish the house in the background, or are what
look like bare blocks some ghastly fake marks in plain rendering? No can't
be that some blocks are a differnt colour.

New cement used to set the post.

Waste of a fiver and trip to get it. Your just out of date stuff would
have been fine for setting a post provided it was still a powder.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Bruce wrote:
"Mr Sandman" wrote:

My local builder merch. says they are fine for 6 months after use by
date...as long as it has not hardened into lumps!


Ask him to back that up with a warranty.

OK, lets state the obvious:
1. The best before date is the date the warranty that the product is
fit for purpose expires.
2. Beyond that point you have no warranty, no comeback
3. Fitness for purpose depends on storage conditions
4. No supplier is going to warrant any product for longer unless
youre willing to pay for them taking on that risk.

The reality is cement stores years _if_ stored in good conditions,
and if you dont mind 3:1 giving you the result of a less hard mix.


NT

wrote:

course it does, it tells you if it sets like rock or not.


Even if it has lost 90% of its strength, it still feels as though "it
sets like rock".

You just don't know, and anyone who claims they do is telling porkies.


But Adam said its been a few months in the lounge, so no worries
there! You can keep cement a few years in dry storage and it still
sets hard.


A room with 50% - 70% humidity is NOT dry storage. And as I pointed
out above, cement that appears to you to be "setting hard" can have
lost as much as 90% of its strength. Furthermore, its capacity for
watertightness will be severely affected.

Cement is not that expensive, certainly not worth taking this sort of
a risk on. Except if you don't know what you are talking about, so
please feel free go ahead and use the stale stuff, as you will be none
the wiser. ;-)

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:35 GMT, ARWadworth wrote:

http://i29.tinypic.com/xcredw.jpg

When are they goping to finish the house in the background, or are what
look like bare blocks some ghastly fake marks in plain rendering? No can't
be that some blocks are a differnt colour.

A close up for you.

http://i26.tinypic.com/2j64jd.jpg

The houses are about 50 years old. The blocks are concrete. Apparently they
were made on site.


New cement used to set the post.

Waste of a fiver and trip to get it. Your just out of date stuff would
have been fine for setting a post provided it was still a powder.

I will use the old stuff for the path. It is still powder. The trip was not
wasted as I needed a new spirt level.

Adam

Bruce wrote:
wrote:

course it does, it tells you if it sets like rock or not.


Even if it has lost 90% of its strength, it still feels as though "it
sets like rock".

either it sets like rock or it doesnt. If it does, it does its job of
setting like rock. That may not be good enough spec for bridge
building, but for setting posts its more than enough.


You just don't know, and anyone who claims they do is telling porkies.


But Adam said its been a few months in the lounge, so no worries
there! You can keep cement a few years in dry storage and it still
sets hard.


A room with 50% - 70% humidity is NOT dry storage.

A lounge with 70% RH would be unusual, and not one to put
cement in.


And as I pointed
out above, cement that appears to you to be "setting hard" can have
lost as much as 90% of its strength. Furthermore, its capacity for
watertightness will be severely affected.

Cement is not that expensive, certainly not worth taking this sort of
a risk on. Except if you don't know what you are talking about, so
please feel free go ahead and use the stale stuff, as you will be none
the wiser. ;-)

Some of us here have done, and it works fine for undemanding
apps. Those of us that have tried it know that.


NT

wrote:

either it sets like rock or it doesnt


On the contrary, in a slightly moist atmosphere, each cement particle
can hydrate (in other words, go off) without joining up to other
particles to form lumps. I have been involved in investigating
several projects where such degradation of cement caused major
problems, including complete collapse of a major structure.

The idea that cement is perfectly OK to use as long as there are no
lumps in it is an old wives' tale.

Bruce wrote:
wrote:

course it does, it tells you if it sets like rock or not.


Even if it has lost 90% of its strength, it still feels as though "it
sets like rock".

You just don't know, and anyone who claims they do is telling porkies.


But Adam said its been a few months in the lounge, so no worries
there! You can keep cement a few years in dry storage and it still
sets hard.


A room with 50% - 70% humidity is NOT dry storage.

NO, its called a sauna or a hothouse.

Wont accept your talking ********, will you?

Bruce wrote:
wrote:
either it sets like rock or it doesnt


On the contrary, in a slightly moist atmosphere, each cement particle
can hydrate (in other words, go off) without joining up to other
particles to form lumps.

********.
I have left bags in 'slightly moist atmospheres' for the odd year, and I
an assure you they set into a lump.

I have been involved in investigating
several projects where such degradation of cement caused major
problems, including complete collapse of a major structure.


I don't think fence posts are 'major structures'.

No one is denying that teh cement aint as good, but your theoretical
attitude is totally at odds with the average DIY persons direct experience.


The idea that cement is perfectly OK to use as long as there are no
lumps in it is an old wives' tale.

No, its a sound piece of experiental knowledge. It is OK to use, and I
have even used it WITH lumps in, breaking them up.

The mortar was not as good, but it was good enough for the purpose at
the time.

I have also eaten food more than one microsecond past its sell by date,
and haven't died in agony either.

If you knew as much about cement as you would have us believe, you would
also know that is degradation begins the moment it leaves the milling
stage and is bagged, and is uniform, and progressive, and the rate
depends on the moisture resistance of the plastic lined sack, and the
amount of moisture in the air, neither of which are guaranteed to be in
any way constants.

The time stamp on the bag is a guide that ensures that even in the worst
of cases the unopened cement should still be to spec at that date.
Given better storeage cement last far longer than that, and anyne who
has actually used it knows that it degrades through clearly identifiable
stages, the first being a slight crust that forms on the outside of the
stuff, where the moisture has penetrated first. Then you get clumping
where there has been generalised partial hydration and there isn't much
in the way of powder left. Nevertheless that lumps if they can be broken
down, still have about 50% ability to rehydrate, and doubling up on the
cement ratio will result in usable mixtures for non demanding applications.

Which 99.99% of D-I-Y mortars are. Certainly adequate for path laying.
fence posts and non critical above ground bricklaying.

If you knew anything about concrete, you would also know that teh
strength is poor in tension, which is why we use rebar, and good in
compression, and is MAINLY down to the actual aggregate in use. The
finction of the cement is not to provide strength as such, but to
prevent the aggregates from shearing past one another.

Most cement failures are due to porisoity, and freszing or ingress of
aor+water to reinfirced structres leading to rusting of te reinfircement.

The point about porosity is the only one you have made that I consider
valid: old cement as I pointed out may not have enough 'good stuff' in
it to totally fill the interstices in the sand, and therefore become
akin to a weaker more porous screed type material. If that is used in
serious structures without compensating in any way there will indeed be
trouble.

However serious structures of that nature are either precast in a
factory, or cast using readymix. I have yet to see a bridge made from
bags of DIY cement on site mixed in a barrow or portable mixer ;-)

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bruce wrote:
wrote:

either it sets like rock or it doesnt


On the contrary, in a slightly moist atmosphere, each cement particle
can hydrate (in other words, go off) without joining up to other
particles to form lumps.

********.
I have left bags in 'slightly moist atmospheres' for the odd year, and I
an assure you they set into a lump.

I have been involved in investigating
several projects where such degradation of cement caused major
problems, including complete collapse of a major structure.


I don't think fence posts are 'major structures'.

lol. I'm not sure he's yet noticed that bedding fence posts doesnt
need any cement at all. Your explanations are spot on Mr
Philosopher

rest snipped

I've dealt with enough genuinely qualified 'experts' to not be
susprised if Bruce really were who he says. Its remarkable what
blcks passes for expertise, how much such people too often
assume, and how comically wrong they get things, too often over
and over.


NT

wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bruce wrote:
wrote:

either it sets like rock or it doesnt

On the contrary, in a slightly moist atmosphere, each cement particle
can hydrate (in other words, go off) without joining up to other
particles to form lumps.
********.
I have left bags in 'slightly moist atmospheres' for the odd year, and I
an assure you they set into a lump.

I have been involved in investigating
several projects where such degradation of cement caused major
problems, including complete collapse of a major structure.

I don't think fence posts are 'major structures'.

lol. I'm not sure he's yet noticed that bedding fence posts doesnt
need any cement at all. Your explanations are spot on Mr
Philosopher

rest snipped

I've dealt with enough genuinely qualified 'experts' to not be
susprised if Bruce really were who he says. Its remarkable what
blcks passes for expertise, how much such people too often
assume, and how comically wrong they get things, too often over
and over.


NT
Also, if he has been investigating failed concrete structures, he has
probably totally ignored the 'human factor'


Contractors are far more likely to pad out the mix with any old crap
they can grind up and feed into a mixer, or simply not throw as much in.
And swear blind it was all in date, not clumped and otherwise somebody
else's problem.