"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , dennis@home
scribeth thus


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article
s.com, pj scribeth thus
I would like to link our house and garage using cat5/6 data cable
allowing internet to be shared. The route i would like to take
requires digging a trench and the total cable distance comes to about
70m inluding going around walls etc.
External grade armoured cable seems to be obscenely expensive so would
some kind of outdoor grade cable within a conduit be acceptable?

also the garage and house are on completely different electricity
mains supplies with different meters etc. Is this a problem in terms
of linking them because they have seperate grounds?

thank you for your help
Pete

If you want to user Radio then I'd recommend 5.8 Ghz point to point
equipment's from Solwise.

Or something like http://www.ebuyer.com/product/144712

802.11a should manage 10m with ease even with the APs indoors.



If your going 5.b Ghz make sure it does the 5.7 to 5.8 part of the band
and conform to the Ofcom IR 2008 regs..

802.11a is OK in the UK, its doesn't need a license unless it interferes
with an essential service.
It won't as it such low power but they wanted to cover themselves when they
allowed its use.

--
Tony Sayer

wrote:

AIUI The soviet bloc never abandoned valves like we did. I forget the
reasons why. They came up with the valve IC in the late 80s,
something the west would never even attempt.

By "valve IC" do you mean a multiple valve with resistors and capacitors
integrated in the envelope? That idea originated in Germany in 1926 -
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loewe_3NF.

--
Andy

On May 18, 4:51 pm, pj wrote:
As with the comments above everyone seems to have conflicting views on
whether its a good idea to link buildings. Im not interested in using
fibre as its WAY too expensive for this project. A cheapo £20 switch
will be at either end of the line so im not too bothered if the risk
of it blowing is there, as long as it isnt a common occurance!

Do what BT does. Every building interconnects to theirs - the same
problem repeated 10,000+ times.. BT must never have damage because
every wire (inside every cable) gets connected to earth. Having no
damage was routine even 100 years ago. Protection is not provided by
surge protectors. Protection is about earthing every wire to the same
earth ground. Either a wire connects directly to earth OR a surge
protector makes that earthing connection.

View these protectors:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse19.htm
http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...?productID=151
Each has what provides protection - a green ground wire. What makes
the protector effective? That ground wire must be as short as
possible to earth. Earth is where surge energy gets dissipated
harmlessly.

When a wire interconnects two buildings, then one building can act
like a lightning rod; second building act as an earth ground. Then
anything connected to that wire gets damage. As Andrew Gabriel noted,
communication ports have significant internal protection rated at 2000
or 15,000 volts. This protection exists in ethernet ports, in
telephone equipment, etc. So why are these devices harmed? That
protection can be overwhelmed by the typically destructive surge. If
every wire entering or leaving a building connects (ie less than 3
meters) to earth ground, then that protection inside electronics will
not be overwhelmed - as BT demonstrates in every town.

Single point earth ground. That ethernet wire is earthed (via a
protector) to the same ground used by AC electric - and that earthing
wire must be short. Then surges out of one building will not destroy
electronics inside the other.

BT has been doing this protection for how long? Effetive protection
from direct lightning strikes has been routine for how long? Why do
so many not know this (the reason for so many confusing answers)?

On Tue, 20 May 2008 06:05:40 UTC, w_tom wrote:

(his usual lengthy stuff)

See, I told Simon that he'd stir up w_tom again...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article
,
w_tom wrote:
Do what BT does. Every building interconnects to theirs - the same
problem repeated 10,000+ times.. BT must never have damage because
every wire (inside every cable) gets connected to earth. Having no
damage was routine even 100 years ago. Protection is not provided by
surge protectors. Protection is about earthing every wire to the same
earth ground. Either a wire connects directly to earth OR a surge
protector makes that earthing connection.

Must be something wrong with my telephone - and every other one I've seen.
No local earth. Nor would you expect one with a balanced line.

Oh - if you earth every wire it will cease to be of any use...

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 19 May 2008 23:05:40 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be w_tom
wrote this:-

BT must never have damage because
every wire (inside every cable) gets connected to earth.

You may think they have no damage, but in reality they do have
damage which is why they employ people to fix things.

Having no damage was routine even 100 years ago.

Open wires on pole routes suffer rather more damage than conductors
in cables. That is why the Post Office and their predecessors
employed people to fix things.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On May 20, 3:17*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
Must be something wrong with my telephone - and every other one I've seen.
No local earth. Nor would you expect one with a balanced line.

First, you are in the UK where BT only installs earthing on their
end. In North America, every phone line is earthed at both ends.

BT's switching computer is challenged by maybe 100 surges during
every thunderstorm - and no damage. New master socket installations
do not have that earthing - that is even required by code in North
America.

Second, balanced line remains because - well read the previous post
with care. Every wire in every phone line cable gets earthed through
a protector - therefore remains a balance line. What does a protector
do? Performs like an open switch. Only connects a wire to earth when
a surge exists.

Surge protectors don't stop or block surges. See the examples at:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse19.htm
http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...?productID=151
The effective protector makes that short (ie less than 3 meter)
connection to earth - that green wire. Each ethernet wire gets
connected to earth ground only during surges. Then that surge need
not find earth ground, destructively, via any switch or network card.
Then that surge will not overwhelm thousands of volts protection in
every ethernet interface.

Third, does BT shutdown service for five days while they replace
that £multi-million switching computer? Of course not. Hundreds of
surges during every thunderstorm and no switching computer must be
damaged. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earth
ground provides ethernet protection.

Another industry professional demonstrates this solution in an
application note:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
Routine is to connect communication wires between buildings and have
no damage. Those who would deny this also claim surge damage is
acceptable. Nonsense.

In article
,
w_tom wrote:
On May 20, 3:17 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
Must be something wrong with my telephone - and every other one I've
seen. No local earth. Nor would you expect one with a balanced line.

First, you are in the UK where BT only installs earthing on their
end. In North America, every phone line is earthed at both ends.

So they don't use balanced lines?

BT's switching computer is challenged by maybe 100 surges during
every thunderstorm - and no damage. New master socket installations
do not have that earthing - that is even required by code in North
America.

Obviously different ways of skinning a cat.


Second, balanced line remains because - well read the previous post
with care. Every wire in every phone line cable gets earthed through
a protector - therefore remains a balance line. What does a protector
do? Performs like an open switch. Only connects a wire to earth when
a surge exists.

Right. So they're not actually earthed, then? You should have made that
clear. What happens in a fault condition is something else.

Surge protectors don't stop or block surges. See the examples at:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse19.htm
http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...?productID=151
The effective protector makes that short (ie less than 3 meter)
connection to earth - that green wire. Each ethernet wire gets
connected to earth ground only during surges. Then that surge need
not find earth ground, destructively, via any switch or network card.
Then that surge will not overwhelm thousands of volts protection in
every ethernet interface.

Third, does BT shutdown service for five days while they replace
that £multi-million switching computer? Of course not. Hundreds of
surges during every thunderstorm and no switching computer must be
damaged. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earth
ground provides ethernet protection.

Another industry professional demonstrates this solution in an
application note:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
Routine is to connect communication wires between buildings and have
no damage. Those who would deny this also claim surge damage is
acceptable. Nonsense.

Do we actually speak the same language?

--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:37:41 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article
,
w_tom wrote:
On May 20, 3:17 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
Must be something wrong with my telephone - and every other one I've
seen. No local earth. Nor would you expect one with a balanced line.

First, you are in the UK where BT only installs earthing on their
end. In North America, every phone line is earthed at both ends.

So they don't use balanced lines?

BT's switching computer is challenged by maybe 100 surges during
every thunderstorm - and no damage. New master socket installations
do not have that earthing - that is even required by code in North
America.

Obviously different ways of skinning a cat.


Second, balanced line remains because - well read the previous post
with care. Every wire in every phone line cable gets earthed through
a protector - therefore remains a balance line. What does a protector
do? Performs like an open switch. Only connects a wire to earth when
a surge exists.

Right. So they're not actually earthed, then? You should have made that
clear. What happens in a fault condition is something else.

Surge protectors don't stop or block surges. See the examples at:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse19.htm
http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...?productID=151
The effective protector makes that short (ie less than 3 meter)
connection to earth - that green wire. Each ethernet wire gets
connected to earth ground only during surges. Then that surge need
not find earth ground, destructively, via any switch or network card.
Then that surge will not overwhelm thousands of volts protection in
every ethernet interface.

Third, does BT shutdown service for five days while they replace
that £multi-million switching computer? Of course not. Hundreds of
surges during every thunderstorm and no switching computer must be
damaged. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earth
ground provides ethernet protection.

Another industry professional demonstrates this solution in an
application note:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
Routine is to connect communication wires between buildings and have
no damage. Those who would deny this also claim surge damage is
acceptable. Nonsense.

Do we actually speak the same language?

See, I said you'd stir him up again!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"w_tom" wrote in message
...


Third, does BT shutdown service for five days while they replace
that £multi-million switching computer?

I bloody well hope not, I didn't do my job very well if it did.
Even if it did there were some switches built into containers that could be
installed.
They were used following a few disasters like fires.

In article
s.com, w_tom scribeth thus
On May 18, 4:51 pm, pj wrote:
As with the comments above everyone seems to have conflicting views on
whether its a good idea to link buildings. Im not interested in using
fibre as its WAY too expensive for this project. A cheapo £20 switch
will be at either end of the line so im not too bothered if the risk
of it blowing is there, as long as it isnt a common occurance!

Do what BT does. Every building interconnects to theirs - the same
problem repeated 10,000+ times.. BT must never have damage because
every wire (inside every cable) gets connected to earth.

I reckon you ought to come over here and see what plant BT actually have
and how they go about all this earthing;!...

Having no
damage was routine even 100 years ago. Protection is not provided by
surge protectors. Protection is about earthing every wire to the same
earth ground. Either a wire connects directly to earth OR a surge
protector makes that earthing connection.

View these protectors:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse19.htm
http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...?productID=151
Each has what provides protection - a green ground wire. What makes
the protector effective? That ground wire must be as short as
possible to earth. Earth is where surge energy gets dissipated
harmlessly.

When a wire interconnects two buildings, then one building can act
like a lightning rod; second building act as an earth ground. Then
anything connected to that wire gets damage. As Andrew Gabriel noted,
communication ports have significant internal protection rated at 2000
or 15,000 volts. This protection exists in ethernet ports, in
telephone equipment, etc. So why are these devices harmed? That
protection can be overwhelmed by the typically destructive surge. If
every wire entering or leaving a building connects (ie less than 3
meters) to earth ground, then that protection inside electronics will
not be overwhelmed - as BT demonstrates in every town.

Single point earth ground. That ethernet wire is earthed (via a
protector) to the same ground used by AC electric - and that earthing
wire must be short. Then surges out of one building will not destroy
electronics inside the other.

BT has been doing this protection for how long?

I don't think they are that much bothered these days;(..

Effetive protection
from direct lightning strikes has been routine for how long? Why do
so many not know this (the reason for so many confusing answers)?

--
Tony Sayer

In article
s.com, w_tom scribeth thus
On May 20, 3:17*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
Must be something wrong with my telephone - and every other one I've seen.
No local earth. Nor would you expect one with a balanced line.

First, you are in the UK where BT only installs earthing on their
end. In North America, every phone line is earthed at both ends.


Course a lot of comms stuff in the UK is on fibre now, doesn't seem that
bothered by Jove's bolts...

And a lot of BT copper disappears in the night with the Pikey's
spiriting it away;!..

--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
In article
s.com, w_tom scribeth thus
On May 20, 3:17 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
Must be something wrong with my telephone - and every other one I've seen.
No local earth. Nor would you expect one with a balanced line.
First, you are in the UK where BT only installs earthing on their
end. In North America, every phone line is earthed at both ends.


Course a lot of comms stuff in the UK is on fibre now, doesn't seem that
bothered by Jove's bolts...

And a lot of BT copper disappears in the night with the Pikey's
spiriting it away;!..


If any of them read uk.d-i-y, they'll be after HiFi speaker cables...

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On May 20, 2:54 pm, tony sayer wrote:
Course a lot of comms stuff in the UK is on fibre now, doesn't seem that
bothered by Jove's bolts...

Therefore all those switches were damaged when fiber did not exist?
Of course, not. It is routine to interconnect buildings with wires
and not have damage. There is zero reason to solve this problem with
fiber. A solution is so simple as to be standard even long before
the transistor existed.

Many have confused the OP with recommendations and futility that did
not exist and was not necessary even 70 years ago. It is routine and
simple to have surges without damage. Defined was effective
protection for ethernet cables. But as the many professionals note,
earthing must exist for all incoming wires. Every incoming utility
must connect to earth ground directly or via a surge protector.

On May 20, 1:37 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
So they don't use balanced lines?
...
Right. So they're not actually earthed, then? You should have made that
clear. What happens in a fault condition is something else.

How earthing is accomplished was plainly stated and easily read in
that first post:
Protection is about earthing every wire to the same earth
ground. Either a wire connects directly to earth OR a
surge protector makes that earthing connection.
How could you not understand that? Amazing how one knows, but never
bothers to learn or read the science.

Also bluntly stated was that telephone lines are balanced lines
while each wire makes a connection to earth ground. Why is that so
difficult? If you still don't know what a protector does - if you are
still listening to popular myths that promote ineffective protectors -
then how earthed phone lines (via protectors) remain balanced would
confuse you. Those myths can only survive if you ignore details –
such as ignoring what was in the first post.

Posted were concepts that have been standard protection without
damage for over 100 years. A superior solution that also costs less
money. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground, so that
(thousands of volts) protection inside routers and NICs is not
overwhelmed. That single point earth ground provides protection.
Provided were examples of effective protectors to make that connection
from each ethernet wire to earth – to do what BT also does in every
telco switching station.

In article
s.com, w_tom scribeth thus
On May 20, 2:54 pm, tony sayer wrote:
Course a lot of comms stuff in the UK is on fibre now, doesn't seem that
bothered by Jove's bolts...

Therefore all those switches were damaged when fiber did not exist?
Of course, not. It is routine to interconnect buildings with wires
and not have damage. There is zero reason to solve this problem with
fiber. A solution is so simple as to be standard even long before
the transistor existed.

Many have confused the OP with recommendations and futility that did
not exist and was not necessary even 70 years ago. It is routine and
simple to have surges without damage. Defined was effective
protection for ethernet cables. But as the many professionals note,
earthing must exist for all incoming wires. Every incoming utility
must connect to earth ground directly or via a surge protector.

So how do you earth a fibre cable then?..
--
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:28:53 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be w_tom
wrote this:-

Many have confused the OP

Mind reading is also one of your "talents"? Fascinating.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

tony sayer wrote:

If you want to user Radio then I'd recommend 5.8 Ghz point to point
equipment's from Solwise.

NOC 8610 over that range .. they'll do very well and I very much doubt
that they'd be interfered with as there is a part of then band for fixed
point to point links..!..

Avoid 2.4 Ghz waay too crowed these days unless your out in the sticks.

Or armoured direct bury can be had from 2 quid a metre, might be cheaper
then cable plus duct..


I've seen it done with 2.4Ghz wi-fi directional antennas at each end of an
empty duct underground. Worked fine and the ground shielded it from interference...

On May 20, 3:29 am, David Hansen
wrote:
Open wires on pole routes suffer rather more damage than conductors
in cables. That is why the Post Office and their predecessors
employed people to fix things.

Squirrels, manufacturing defects, downed wires, customer changes,
rain, vibration, etc mean that people are employed for the rare and
infrequent failures. Near zero failures times how many subscribers
means a busy and tiny repair staff.. No protection is perfect. What
happens when surges do damage? What did Orange County FL finally do
when direct lightning strikes caused damage to the emergency
communication equipment? They employed people to fix things. They
fixed the reason for that surge damage. They - corrected defective
earth ground:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Yes, due to age, earth ground must be repaired to terminate surge
damage. Why? Damage from direct lightning strikes is unacceptable.
When that rare failure occurs, employees eliminate that failure AND
defect that permitted it to occur. Earthing is why hundreds of surges
during every thunderstorm can never cause damage in any telephone
switching station. Earthing is how an ethernet cable is routed
between buildings to eliminate router and NIC damage - a solution that
makes the fiber optic solution rediculous, expensive, wasteful, and
unnecessary. A protector without earthing provides ineffective
ethernet protection.

On May 21, 10:21*am, funkmish wrote:
I've seen it done with 2.4Ghz wi-fi directional antennas at each end of an
empty duct underground. Worked fine and the ground shielded it from
interference...

A most intriguing solution. What were dimensions of that duct -
both width and height, and the length? What material was used?