I have been doing all sorts regarding kitchen and other cupboards
recently. Mostly it has gone well.

But one thing that I keep finding awkward is making holes for shelf
supports. I usually use the metal 5mm ones (either the ones that came
with some cupboards or ones I have bought). But getting the holes
precisely lined up (back to front and left to right), particularly with
the cupboard already fitted, is not easy.

I have used various means of marking up, drilling and so on - for the
latest one I actually used a strip of Spur support as a guide for
drilling. (Quite successful.)

Does anyone have any suggestions for better ways of doing this? Are any
templates available?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
I have been doing all sorts regarding kitchen and other cupboards
recently. Mostly it has gone well.

But one thing that I keep finding awkward is making holes for shelf
supports. I usually use the metal 5mm ones (either the ones that came
with some cupboards or ones I have bought). But getting the holes
precisely lined up (back to front and left to right), particularly with
the cupboard already fitted, is not easy.

I have used various means of marking up, drilling and so on - for the
latest one I actually used a strip of Spur support as a guide for
drilling. (Quite successful.)

Can't say it's ever caused me any problems... sorry, not trying to be
smug! Having decided on the shelf height I draw a line on the left side
panel front to back using a spirit level, and mark the position of the
two supports along the line using a bradawl; then drill the bradawl
marks and fit the supports.

Then position the shelf, supported by the supports on the left, and
adjust the height of the right side until it's level. Then draw a line
under the shelf on *both* sides, marking its position. Remove shelf.
On the left side there are now two parallel pencil lines, which denotes
the vertical offset of the support from the bottom of the shelf - draw a
similarly offset parallel line on the right panel, which is the line
upon which the right-hand supports are centred. Bradawl, drill and fit
supports as before.

hth
David

Lobster wrote:
Rod wrote:
I have been doing all sorts regarding kitchen and other cupboards
recently. Mostly it has gone well.

But one thing that I keep finding awkward is making holes for shelf
supports. I usually use the metal 5mm ones (either the ones that came
with some cupboards or ones I have bought). But getting the holes
precisely lined up (back to front and left to right), particularly
with the cupboard already fitted, is not easy.

I have used various means of marking up, drilling and so on - for the
latest one I actually used a strip of Spur support as a guide for
drilling. (Quite successful.)

Can't say it's ever caused me any problems... sorry, not trying to be
smug! Having decided on the shelf height I draw a line on the left side
panel front to back using a spirit level, and mark the position of the
two supports along the line using a bradawl; then drill the bradawl
marks and fit the supports.

Then position the shelf, supported by the supports on the left, and
adjust the height of the right side until it's level. Then draw a line
under the shelf on *both* sides, marking its position. Remove shelf. On
the left side there are now two parallel pencil lines, which denotes the
vertical offset of the support from the bottom of the shelf - draw a
similarly offset parallel line on the right panel, which is the line
upon which the right-hand supports are centred. Bradawl, drill and fit
supports as before.


Thanks - and no problem you being smug! And you technique is similar to
what I have tried for single shelves.

I think I didn't go far enough in explaining. The aim is to have rows of
holes at precise distances so that moving shelves is trivial.

When doing the latest cupboard, I used Spur strip and my pillar drill to
do a dozen or more holes near each corner-to-be. When assembled it
worked fine. But I was hoping to find an easier/better technique.

Another situation today was where I had a cupboard already fitted but
only a few suitable holes. But (of course) we wanted to fit a shelf
exactly between existing holes. So I need to drill extra holes. And
getting them precisely positioned relative to existing holes is
important (otherwise they look a mess). And if I commit to doing one
set of holes, I really have to do new holes all the way between each
existing set of holes. So a really easy, foolproof way of positioning
would be very much appreicated.

Of course, I *could* use bookcase strip...

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
I have been doing all sorts regarding kitchen and other cupboards
recently. Mostly it has gone well.

But one thing that I keep finding awkward is making holes for shelf
supports. I usually use the metal 5mm ones (either the ones that came
with some cupboards or ones I have bought). But getting the holes
precisely lined up (back to front and left to right), particularly
with the cupboard already fitted, is not easy.

I have used various means of marking up, drilling and so on - for the
latest one I actually used a strip of Spur support as a guide for
drilling. (Quite successful.)

Does anyone have any suggestions for better ways of doing this? Are
any templates available?

The standard way of doing this on a side panel is to use an index jig. The
fence on the drill press takes care of the distance from the edge of the
panel.

You have a stop clamped to the fence just above the workpiiece. The first
hole is drilled accurately then a dowel inserted and the workpiece moved
till the dowel touches the stop. Next hole drilled, dowel moved into that,
repeat - all the holes will have exactly the same spacing.

Won't work with a cupboard already fitted of course.

With a fitted cupboard, cut a strip of scrap timber to suitable width & use
this to mark lines vertically from the front & back edges.

Use a level to establish a horizontal line for the top two holes, then a
pair of pointed dividers to mark the spaces between the holes. Drill with a
brad point bit.

Single shelf. Timber strip to mark vertical lines as above, timber
block/square to mark horizontal lines. Or two equal block/squares to rest
shelf on & fix with joint blocks.


HTH


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
news


Rod wrote:
I have been doing all sorts regarding kitchen and other cupboards
recently. Mostly it has gone well.

But one thing that I keep finding awkward is making holes for shelf
supports. I usually use the metal 5mm ones (either the ones that came
with some cupboards or ones I have bought). But getting the holes
precisely lined up (back to front and left to right), particularly
with the cupboard already fitted, is not easy.
Does anyone have any suggestions for better ways of doing this? Are
any templates available?

I've now done several cupboards using the same techqiue - fairly simple and
works for me.

Cut a strip of waste 12mm MDF 50 to 75mm wide, and 600 to 1000mm long -
depends on cupboard size. Draw a line down the centre, and cross mark at
intervals suitable for your shelf studs - say 50mm, but to your taste. Drill
holes to suit your shelf stud diameters across cross marks as accurately as
your gear will allow - a pillar drill will obviously be preferred if you
have one. Mark one end of the strip as reference. This is the boring part of
the job.

Now clamp your new template onto the edge of the cupboard side, setting it
in from the edge to suit, and lining up the strip reference end to the top
of the cupboard side. Drill though the template using preferably a dedicated
wood bit such as
http://www.screwfix.co.uk/prods/6424...s/Wood-Sets/De
Walt-Brad-Point-Drill-Bit-Set-5-Pc rather than twist drills, for cleaner
holes. Wrap tape around the drill bit as a depth gauge.

Repeat for the other edge of the cupboard side. Make as many cupboard sides
as you need the same way.

This technique means that any minor errors in your template are repeated for
each set of four shelf holes, so although the shelf spacing might be
marginally wrong, each shelf is level and non-wobbly. The MDF template would
not last for a long production run, but I've now used mine for half a dozen
cupboards, and it has not yet worn to the point that the holes are too
sloppy to be satisfactory.

Best of luck,

Charles F

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:43:49 +0100, "CJF"
wrote:

This technique means that any minor errors in your template are repeated for
each set of four shelf holes, so although the shelf spacing might be
marginally wrong, each shelf is level and non-wobbly. The MDF template would
not last for a long production run, but I've now used mine for half a dozen
cupboards, and it has not yet worn to the point that the holes are too
sloppy to be satisfactory.

I've seen this method used by pros, with variations, for odd spacings. They use
a strip of MDF made, marked and clamped as you describe, but don't drill through
it. Rather they use a round awl to mark the drill points, because it wears out
the jig much less. There are also awls with square points but these wear out the
strip faster than drilling.

An offcut clamped to the table of the pillar drill keeps the distance between
edge and hole constant, so it's just a question of lining up the drill point in
one dimension.

For standard rows of holes, the use a Festo router with a special guide that
fixes the router every bit, every 32 mm, I think.

One reference he
http://www.festoolusa.com/whats_new_details.aspx?docid=637

As ever, Festo is very nice, but expensive.,..


Thomas Prufer

Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:43:49 +0100, "CJF"
wrote:

This technique means that any minor errors in your template are repeated for
each set of four shelf holes, so although the shelf spacing might be
marginally wrong, each shelf is level and non-wobbly. The MDF template would
not last for a long production run, but I've now used mine for half a dozen
cupboards, and it has not yet worn to the point that the holes are too
sloppy to be satisfactory.

I've seen this method used by pros, with variations, for odd spacings. They use
a strip of MDF made, marked and clamped as you describe, but don't drill through
it. Rather they use a round awl to mark the drill points, because it wears out
the jig much less. There are also awls with square points but these wear out the
strip faster than drilling.

An offcut clamped to the table of the pillar drill keeps the distance between
edge and hole constant, so it's just a question of lining up the drill point in
one dimension.



Yes, it's known as a jig, and they often take longer to make than the
job they're designed for. Sod's law states that, if you make a jig,
you'll never have to do that job again.

Stuart Noble wrote:
Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:43:49 +0100, "CJF"
wrote:

This technique means that any minor errors in your template are
repeated for
each set of four shelf holes, so although the shelf spacing might be
marginally wrong, each shelf is level and non-wobbly. The MDF
template would
not last for a long production run, but I've now used mine for half a
dozen
cupboards, and it has not yet worn to the point that the holes are too
sloppy to be satisfactory.

I've seen this method used by pros, with variations, for odd spacings.
They use
a strip of MDF made, marked and clamped as you describe, but don't
drill through
it. Rather they use a round awl to mark the drill points, because it
wears out
the jig much less. There are also awls with square points but these
wear out the
strip faster than drilling.
An offcut clamped to the table of the pillar drill keeps the distance
between
edge and hole constant, so it's just a question of lining up the drill
point in
one dimension.


Yes, it's known as a jig, and they often take longer to make than the
job they're designed for. Sod's law states that, if you make a jig,
you'll never have to do that job again.

What an excellent bit of kit that Festool guide thing is! Just need to
find the bank willing to give a mortgage...

One of the things that set me off on this was that we fitted some new
kitchen wall cupboards. And they only had 3 or 4 holes at 64mm spacing.
Clearly silly as the height of the cupboards could easily take 2, 3 or
even 4 shelves and a finer gradation would also be appreciated. So I
made a small "jig" (don't want to over-dignify my lash up) - angle
aluminium, a few holes (based on existing holes). Then by pushing the
shelf supports through the jig, into the existing holes, I could drill
another hole. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat......

(I think that "jig wears to the point of unusability just before getting
some more holes to drill" is another law of jigs/sod.)

This worked but a) aluminium wears quickly; b) any error gets added to
previous errors at each new position; c) very tedious if you want a lot
of holes. It is b) that concerns me about indexing (thanks TMH).

Thanks for your ideas. Seems about time there was a simple but effective
commercial template. While waiting for that I shall try some of these ideas.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Hi,

As mentioned, just make a jig out of a thin ply offcut or similar (you
reading MWH?), using lip/spur wood bits for accuracy.

When using the jig, a drill bit or two can act as dowels to keep the
jig in place while drilling the remaining holes.

On Apr 17, 9:12*am, Rod wrote:
(I think that "jig wears to the point of unusability just before getting
some more holes to drill" is another law of jigs/sod.)

For drilling lots of holes, a jig can be easily be used as a 'master'
to make 'pattern' jigs as needed.

cheers,
Pete.

What an excellent bit of kit that Festool guide thing is! Just need to
find the bank willing to give a mortgage...

Andy has loads of bank accounts. I'm sure he'll be able to recommend one
if it involves a Festool :-)

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:12:30 +0100, Rod wrote:

This worked but a) aluminium wears quickly; b) any error gets added to
previous errors at each new position; c) very tedious if you want a lot
of holes. It is b) that concerns me about indexing (thanks TMH).

Just remembered how that's solved: a large hole in the aluminum, and sleeve of
hardened metal with a hole corresponding to the drill diameter is slipped in and
guides the drill.

The sleeves are standard parts:

http://www.norelem.de/cms/wm?catId=1696&CmiProdId=fc0bd3a5f54cb47f0f039c2403 17baa0&showTables=true&nextFamily=false

and pictures and tables in

http://www.ni-niederberger.de/downloads/Pr%C3%A4zisionsbb.pdf


I'm also pretty sure they'll make the Festo kit look cheap by comparison.


Thomas Prufer

Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:12:30 +0100, Rod wrote:

This worked but a) aluminium wears quickly; b) any error gets added to
previous errors at each new position; c) very tedious if you want a lot
of holes. It is b) that concerns me about indexing (thanks TMH).

Just remembered how that's solved: a large hole in the aluminum, and sleeve of
hardened metal with a hole corresponding to the drill diameter is slipped in and
guides the drill.

The sleeves are standard parts:

http://www.norelem.de/cms/wm?catId=1696&CmiProdId=fc0bd3a5f54cb47f0f039c2403 17baa0&showTables=true&nextFamily=false

and pictures and tables in

http://www.ni-niederberger.de/downloads/Pr%C3%A4zisionsbb.pdf


I'm also pretty sure they'll make the Festo kit look cheap by comparison.


Thanks - they look pretty good - I'll just see if they've got any at the
pound shop.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:12:30 +0100, Rod
wrote:
This worked but a) aluminium wears quickly; b) any error gets added
to previous errors at each new position; c) very tedious if you
want a lot of holes. It is b) that concerns me about indexing
(thanks TMH).

Just remembered how that's solved: a large hole in the aluminum, and
sleeve of hardened metal with a hole corresponding to the drill
diameter is slipped in and guides the drill.

The sleeves are standard parts:

http://www.norelem.de/cms/wm?catId=1696&CmiProdId=fc0bd3a5f54cb47f0f039c2403 17baa0&showTables=true&nextFamily=false

and pictures and tables in

http://www.ni-niederberger.de/downloads/Pr%C3%A4zisionsbb.pdf


I'm also pretty sure they'll make the Festo kit look cheap by
comparison.

Thanks - they look pretty good - I'll just see if they've got any at
the pound shop.

ISTR that Axminster sell something like that - bushes I think they are
called.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk