A piece of junk post through the door claims that new building
regulations require fitting of water softeners where water
hardness exceeds 200ppm (which looks to be over half of England
on the map included). That was a new one on me...

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
A piece of junk post through the door claims that new building
regulations require fitting of water softeners where water
hardness exceeds 200ppm (which looks to be over half of England
on the map included). That was a new one on me...


I was deeply suspicious. So I found this:

"The UKWTA has demonstrated how lime-scale build-up has a major impact
on reducing the efficiency of domestic water heating appliances – so
much so that the government changed the UK Building Regulations (the
Domestic Heating Compliance Guide - published May 2006) to require
treatment of the feed water to water heaters in hard water areas to
inhibit lime-scale formation."
http://www.ukwta.org/watersofteners.php

Obviously not a wholly disinterested source. So I sought the mentioned
document.

When you look at the "Domestic Heating Compliance Guide" [1], the *only*
mention of water softening (so far as I could find) was in Table 24 (on
page 52/PDF page 53). This applies specifically community heating and
the need for some means of ensuring the life of the system by avoiding
corrosion. One of the options mentioned is water softening.

[1] Found at
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
A piece of junk post through the door claims that new building
regulations require fitting of water softeners where water
hardness exceeds 200ppm (which looks to be over half of England
on the map included). That was a new one on me...

Bit like this "three portions of fibre a day" thing. Wouldn't be anything
to do with breakfast cereal manufacturers would it?

The ASA is a complete waste of space IMO.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
snip

Bit like this "three portions of fibre a day" thing. Wouldn't be anything
to do with breakfast cereal manufacturers would it?

With no distinction between soluble and insoluble fibre...

But I don't think Kelloggs care about water softeners...

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

I was deeply suspicious. So I found this:


Me too; and as we are still contemplating a new boiler I
also looked. But it looks as if it is (sort of) true.

I found this book (?)
http://www.hipstudent.co.uk/pdf/watertreatment.pdf which
includes a page with a heading "Changes to the Building
Regulations this April now require anyone installing a new
domestic boiler to fit a water treatment device to its feed
water, wherever the water hardness is above 200ppm."

Same statement is repeated in
http://www.aqua-nouveau.co.uk/wp-con...etter_d299.pdf
That also cites the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide’
published May 2006 but gives a bit more detail by quoting
BS7593 (revised 2006) "‘To minimise the likelihood of
corrosion, scale and sludge formation, the system water
should be treated with an inhibitor’ and then back to the
‘Compliance Guide’ to quote ‘In hard water areas where the
total hardness exceeds 200mg.l / ppm*, reasonable provision
would also include water treatment of the feed water to
water heaters and the hot water circuit of combination
boilers to reduce the build-up of limescale."


Obviously not a wholly disinterested source.

ditto.

But isn't there a bit more in the BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf?
Eg Table 1 *does* include (row d para d) that "where the
mains water hardness exceeds 200ppm provision should be made
to treat the feed water to water heaters and the hot water
circuit of combination boilers to reduce the rate of
accumulation of lime scale”. And that's domestic GFCH.

I have no idea whether this is justified. But with sealed
systems needing so little water added I do wonder if it is
another bit of over-regulation which has been slipped
through - possibly as a result self of another of the then
Deputy Prime Minister's lot being captured by a
lobby-group?

In any event, help please - I'm confused.

--
Robin

neverwas wrote:
I was deeply suspicious. So I found this:


Me too; and as we are still contemplating a new boiler I
also looked. But it looks as if it is (sort of) true.

I found this book (?)
http://www.hipstudent.co.uk/pdf/watertreatment.pdf which
includes a page with a heading "Changes to the Building
Regulations this April now require anyone installing a new
domestic boiler to fit a water treatment device to its feed
water, wherever the water hardness is above 200ppm."

Same statement is repeated in
http://www.aqua-nouveau.co.uk/wp-con...etter_d299.pdf
That also cites the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide�
published May 2006 but gives a bit more detail by quoting
BS7593 (revised 2006) "�To minimise the likelihood of
corrosion, scale and sludge formation, the system water
should be treated with an inhibitor� and then back to the
�Compliance Guide� to quote �In hard water areas where the
total hardness exceeds 200mg.l / ppm*, reasonable provision
would also include water treatment of the feed water to
water heaters and the hot water circuit of combination
boilers to reduce the build-up of limescale."


Obviously not a wholly disinterested source.

ditto.

But isn't there a bit more in the BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf?
Eg Table 1 *does* include (row d para d) that "where the
mains water hardness exceeds 200ppm provision should be made
to treat the feed water to water heaters and the hot water
circuit of combination boilers to reduce the rate of
accumulation of lime scale�. And that's domestic GFCH.

I have no idea whether this is justified. But with sealed
systems needing so little water added I do wonder if it is
another bit of over-regulation which has been slipped
through - possibly as a result self of another of the then
Deputy Prime Minister's lot being captured by a
lobby-group?

In any event, help please - I'm confused.

You are right. I had this strange idea that a requirement to fit a
softener would at least contain the word soft~ - which is what I
searched for.

In my area the council usually says there are something like 160,000
souls. Assume four per dwelling (very rough guess) so that would be
40,000 properties which will, in due course, require 40,000 water
treament mechanisms. To be supplied, fitted, fed with salt, maintained
and, eventually, disposed of (then replaced...). So much more sensible
than the water company supplying softer water by, for example, some
central treatment.

Seems that Thames Valley is rated at around 300-350 ppm.

Odd, when we got quotes for a new boiler, no mention of this was made
any of the quoters. (That project is still on hold.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

So much more sensible than the water company supplying
softer water by, for example, some central treatment.


But central treatment not very politic if it means
increasing water charges, and even less if it also increases
the level of sodium in the water. And to be fair I see no
need to soften our drinking water.

And in any event I think we are meant to be in favour of DIY
here

--
Robin

Rod wrote:

In my area the council usually says there are something like 160,000
souls. Assume four per dwelling (very rough guess) so that would be
40,000 properties which will, in due course, require 40,000 water
treament mechanisms. To be supplied, fitted, fed with salt, maintained
and, eventually, disposed of (then replaced...). So much more sensible
than the water company supplying softer water by, for example, some
central treatment.

Note there is *no* requirement for softening - only scale inhibiting.
Any phosphate dosing system will do that at much lower cost. (and no
doubt the various interested groups will wangle their electronic /
magnetic / magic rock placebos in there as well


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Note there is *no* requirement for softening - only scale
inhibiting. Any phosphate dosing system will do that at
much lower cost. (and no doubt the various interested
groups will wangle their electronic / magnetic / magic
rock placebos in there as well



True (as ever). And one or two of the boilers I've looked
at do have an option to fit just such a system.

What surprised me was that the stuff I've looked at for
(among others) Worcester and Vaillant boilers still just say
in both user and technical literature (to take one example):
"The temperature in the domestic hot water heat exchanger is
limited by the boiler control system and it is not necessary
to install a scale reducer on the cold mains to the boiler.
However, in areas that get exceptionally hard water, a scale
reducer may be fitted to prevent scale formation in the hot
water system pipes."

I find that hard to reconcile with the scale of water
supplies at 200+ ppm according to
http://www.dwi.gov.uk/consumer/faq/hardness.htm But perhaps
the manufacturers haven't bothered to change their
literature - after all, it might be a good way for them to
get out of a warranty claim.

--
Robin

In article ,
"neverwas" writes:
What surprised me was that the stuff I've looked at for
(among others) Worcester and Vaillant boilers still just say
in both user and technical literature (to take one example):
"The temperature in the domestic hot water heat exchanger is
limited by the boiler control system and it is not necessary
to install a scale reducer on the cold mains to the boiler.
However, in areas that get exceptionally hard water, a scale
reducer may be fitted to prevent scale formation in the hot
water system pipes."

I had an old Main Medina multi-point water heater when I moved
in to a house many years ago. I had to take the heat exchanger
out of that and clean it about every 2 years. The multi-point
was replaced in 2000 and the new model claims teflon coating
on the inside of the heat exchanger pipework to prevent scale.
It seems to work -- I've never had to descale it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:00:53 GMT, a particular chimpanzee, "neverwas"
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Me too; and as we are still contemplating a new boiler I
also looked. But it looks as if it is (sort of) true.
....
But isn't there a bit more in the BR_PDF_PTL_DOMHEAT.pdf?
Eg Table 1 *does* include (row d para d) that "where the
mains water hardness exceeds 200ppm provision should be made
to treat the feed water to water heaters and the hot water
circuit of combination boilers to reduce the rate of
accumulation of lime scale”. And that's domestic GFCH.

I have no idea whether this is justified. But with sealed
systems needing so little water added I do wonder if it is
another bit of over-regulation which has been slipped
through - possibly as a result self of another of the then
Deputy Prime Minister's lot being captured by a
lobby-group?

I must admit, I wasn't aware of this, but then I work in an area where
all that comes out of our taps is lovely, soft mountain dew.

The legal requirement is, "Reasonable provision shall be made for the
conservation of fuel and power in buildings by...limiting heat gains
and losses...from pipes, ducts and vessels used for space
heating...and hot water services".

Guidance on how to do this is given in Approved Document L1B
(Conservation of Fuel and Power in Existing Dwellings). This
references the Domestic Heating Guide, which as you've pointed out,
does contain that paragraph above. It doesn't say that a water
softener (or other form of treatment) must be provided to the closed
loop part of a boiler but to the 'feed water' to a water heater and
the 'hot water circuit of a combination boiler', in other words, the
stuff that eventually comes out of the taps.

If one does not follow this guidance, one has to demonstrate that any
alternative chosen gives "reasonable provision" to limit the losses
due to furring-up of pipes. If electro-magnets, Teflon pipes or
sacrificing chickens can be shown to work, then they can be used as an
alternative.

Under Schedule 2A of the Regulations, there are a number of 'competent
persons' schemes, which include the installation of hot water service
systems by CORGI, HETAS, NICEIC et al.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"