On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:07:46 +0100, Alasdair wrote:

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

It is both feasable and legal but is a lot of hassle.

Well aside from having to collect it in 20l containers rather than
delivered in bluk I can't see cooking oil being any more hassle. The
ethics of using food for fuel is another matter...

Diesel oil for stationary engines has no duty on it ...

Red diesel does have duty on it but only 9.69p/l(*) compared to the 50p+/l
of road (white) diesel.

(*) 10.07p/l if the rise that was due on 1st April happened. The 2p rise
on road fuel duty was delayed in the Budget, I don't know if this one was.
The HMR&C site hasn't been updated yet...

I don't know whether it has VAT or not. It is called Gas Oil although
it is ordinary diesel but dyed red.

Yes it has VAT at 17.5% applied after the duty.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:51:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Cut one out of a scrapper car, along with mounts, and hook up to a
generator..you will need to run it at 3000 RPM, which is not a bad rev
range for a diesel.

3000 rpm on my diesel car engine is thrashing it a bit it's happier at
around 2250... The 3000rpm also assume direct drive and two(?) pole
alternator. You can get 4 pole which run at 1500rpm. I think the Lister
sets run at 1500rpm. You can also gear it with a box or pullys and belt.

The biggest snag with a scrapper engine will be keeping the rpm constant
(or at least within a few percent) with step changes in load.

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

Almost impossible: you need blown boiler steam type plant.

You could use a conventional steam engine, there is a sequence of
development pictures and text of just that on the web somewhere. Generates
a reasonable amount of power as well. I suspect I may have followed a link
recently posted in uk.rec.engines.stationary. Even relatively low pressure
boilers have some hefty safety regulations to comply with though. Boilers
going bang is not good, bye bye building sort of not good...

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Buy heating oil.

Or Red diesel. Heating oil for domestic heating attract 5% VAT, I suspect
other uses should have VAT applied at 17.5%.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

Dunno about legal, but those sorts of oils do bad things to diesel
injectors.

Legal in a stationary engine and legal up to 2500l/rolling year in a road
vehicle without telling HMR&C. You do need to keep records though. Bear in
mind that even cheapo cooking oil is still about 80p/l. Red diesel is less
than that I think somewhere around 60p/l, might be a bit more.

It's not so much the injectors as the pump seals. Some are OK with VO
others fail in short order.

In any case whatever you use, pump any coolant or exhaust stuff into a
heat exchanger for hot water and CH usage.

I'd agree with that, dump the "waste" heat into a heat bank/store of some
sort. But look at those fuel prices, a litre of 28sec oil burnt in an hour
produces just over 10kW. So even at 100% effciency you are looking at 6 to
8p/unit. If you can get 50% you'd be doing well, 12 to 16p/unit...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 10 Apr, 17:05, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 10 Apr, 15:52, Phil wrote:

If you wanted to go off-grid, what I am saying is that you should
consider designing your house & appliances from the outset to use only
12vdc.

Why only 12V? Go DC by all means, but 48V is easy and even "mains
voltage" DC systems with battery backup are practical, so long as you
know what you're doing ("mains" switches don't like breaking a DC
load). Distributing any sort of useful power at low voltages gets
difficult from the high current, extra losses and extra cabling costs.

If you really are going for Hobbit-technology and building the lot
from recycled car batteries, but a separate battery and automatic
charger into each light fitting and keep the premises wiring at 240V
AC from the genset. *You'd be using a bunch of batteries anyway, the
wiring costs make it sensible to distribute them close to the loads.

12vdc because of the range of items that already use it, with careful
choice. As I said, my idea was to plan the entire house wiring from
scratch to cope, not to retrofit to cope with the OTT loads we all
have now; ie./ it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 functional
replacement.

Phil.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember John Nagelson
saying something like:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

Don't, just don't. Kerosene has nothing like the same lubricity as
diesel, and you run the risk of wrecking your injection pump. Kerosene
can be used if you are utterly sure of what you're doing, by adding
mineral oil to it in the right proportion.

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

Steam raising is fraught with danger, but not impossible. The fact you
are asking the question points that you are not that able to do it
safely.

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Red diesel is the thing for that, but HM Gov have bumped up the price of
it now.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

Of course it is - safe, practicable and legal too. You really need to do
some research on your own, though. As a starting point, do a google
search for this very subject and spend a couple of weeks absorbing
knowledge.
--

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Liquorice"
saying something like:

The biggest snag with a scrapper engine will be keeping the rpm constant
(or at least within a few percent) with step changes in load.

'Hoof' engine governor. You can find one on ebay.com
--

Dave

"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid',

Why?

Phil wrote:
On 10 Apr, 17:05, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 10 Apr, 15:52, Phil wrote:

If you wanted to go off-grid, what I am saying is that you should
consider designing your house & appliances from the outset to use only
12vdc.
Why only 12V? Go DC by all means, but 48V is easy and even "mains
voltage" DC systems with battery backup are practical, so long as you
know what you're doing ("mains" switches don't like breaking a DC
load). Distributing any sort of useful power at low voltages gets
difficult from the high current, extra losses and extra cabling costs.

If you really are going for Hobbit-technology and building the lot
from recycled car batteries, but a separate battery and automatic
charger into each light fitting and keep the premises wiring at 240V
AC from the genset. You'd be using a bunch of batteries anyway, the
wiring costs make it sensible to distribute them close to the loads.

12vdc because of the range of items that already use it, with careful
choice. As I said, my idea was to plan the entire house wiring from
scratch to cope, not to retrofit to cope with the OTT loads we all
have now; ie./ it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 functional
replacement.

Phil.
A SMPS to generae other voltages from 12 is not more complex,and indeed
often simpler,than an SMPS to generate 12v from the mains..

The main problem with 12v is the massive cabling and connectors needed
for any sort of power.

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:02:31 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

'Hoof' engine governor. You can find one on ebay.com

Welland governors are reasonably accurate.

--
Alasdair.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:



3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
rates.

Disagree!

Kerosene, light oil, lamp oil, jet fuel, heating paraffin, and 28sec
heating oil are sort of the same thing.

Diesel, heavy oil, 35sec heating oil are much the same thing. The stuff
which is untaxed is dyed red. It may not be used to power vehicles on
public roads.

A Diesel engine may well work (and possibly just thrive) with the wrong
fuel an oil fired heating appliance won't.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
: On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
:
:
:
: 3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
: you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
: way to avoid paying the excise?
:
: Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
: rates.
:

Just run it on vegetable oil, it's a whole hell of a lot cheaper and reduces
wear and tear over diesel.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:12:44 +0100, Cork Soaker wrote:

Just run it on vegetable oil, it's a whole hell of a lot cheaper and
reduces wear and tear over diesel.

Red is in the mid 60s p/l(*) veg oil from the likes of CostCo or Makro
nearer 80p/l.

(*) Based on kero being just over 50p/l and adding about 12p for the duty
and VAT. This works with road fuels as well, 60p duty & VAT on a base oil
cost of around 50p. Small ball park...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:34:16 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett wrote:

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
rates.

Disagree!

Kerosene, light oil, lamp oil, jet fuel, heating paraffin, and 28sec
heating oil are sort of the same thing.

Diesel, heavy oil, 35sec heating oil are much the same thing.

Agreed, more or less.

The stuff which is untaxed is dyed red. It may not be used to power
vehicles on public roads.

It is taxed red diesel carries 10p(ish) of duty plus VAT at 17.5%.

28sec oil used for domestic heating has not duty and VAT at 5%. It is dyed
yellow and has hidden markers as well just like red.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:


3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?
Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
rates.

Disagree!

Kerosene, light oil, lamp oil, jet fuel, heating paraffin, and 28sec
heating oil are sort of the same thing.

Diesel, heavy oil, 35sec heating oil are much the same thing. The stuff
which is untaxed is dyed red. It may not be used to power vehicles on
public roads.

A Diesel engine may well work (and possibly just thrive) with the wrong
fuel an oil fired heating appliance won't.


It WILL, for a while, but tends to carbon up the jets.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember John Nagelson
saying something like:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

Don't, just don't. Kerosene has nothing like the same lubricity as
diesel, and you run the risk of wrecking your injection pump. Kerosene
can be used if you are utterly sure of what you're doing, by adding
mineral oil to it in the right proportion.

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

Steam raising is fraught with danger, but not impossible. The fact you
are asking the question points that you are not that able to do it
safely.

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Red diesel is the thing for that, but HM Gov have bumped up the price of
it now.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

Of course it is - safe, practicable and legal too. You really need to do
some research on your own, though. As a starting point, do a google
search for this very subject and spend a couple of weeks absorbing
knowledge.
--

Dave

As has been said many times, taking an on-grid house off grid
pretty much never makes sense.

Just one thing I'd say though: a lot of people are talking about
10kVA plus gensets. If you want as much power as now minus
heating, already, that's what it will take, but the norm is to
dramatically reduce consumption first, such that 1.5kW peak is
enough, and this can come from an invertor. Laptops replace
desktops, 500w microwaves (1kW input) replace 800w, etc

One or 2 not mentioned yet:
Space heating: solar air & solid fuel.
Space cooling: plant shading, whitewash, whole house fan, night
time solar panels
refrigeration: gas
Hot water: concentrating solar, heat scavenging (invertor, genny
etc)
Lighting: fluorescent / CFL, not LED
Washing machine: wind driven agitation if long wash times are
acceptable


NT

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Alasdair
saying something like:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:02:31 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

'Hoof' engine governor. You can find one on ebay.com

Welland governors are reasonably accurate.

Depends on what the surplus situation is. Hoof are easily available
cheaply and are quite good for mounting on VW diesels. I'll have a look
for Welland, ta.
--

Dave