All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It
came installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years
before springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger
swaps and various other disturbing problems.

For the last three months, we’ve been without heat and 8 engineer
visits later (6 from BG and 2 from Keston), our home still resembles
Antarctica! The boiler will manage about 2hrs before the run lamp
extinguishes, sometimes not firing at all when the timer kicks in.
We’re probably faring worse than our neighbours, who all have the same
boiler, but everyone has had their nightmares with this awful product.

The Keston 80 model is apparently out of production now and the Keston
engineer told me that it is almost impossible to get repair work done
on any of their products during winter (unless you’re within the 2
year guarantee period). If you live outside the M25, apparently their
support is even worse.

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real reason for my post was to
find out if anyone could recommend a replacement boiler please? The
current boiler is 80000btu and fits in a kitchen cupboard (resting on
a surface) with dimensions 120cm x 55cm x 42cm. Serviceability and a
reliability are what I’d need and of course, similar level of
efficiency. I’m actually a complete newbie, so could anyone tell me if
I have to continue using a condensing boiler, rather than say a combi?
Also, how much should you pay for an installation and which boilers
would British Gas be able to support? (evidently not Keston!)

Many thanks to anyone who responds.

James.

James.Brown wrote:
All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It
came installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years
before springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger
swaps and various other disturbing problems.

For the last three months, we’ve been without heat and 8 engineer
visits later (6 from BG and 2 from Keston), our home still resembles
Antarctica! The boiler will manage about 2hrs before the run lamp
extinguishes, sometimes not firing at all when the timer kicks in.
We’re probably faring worse than our neighbours, who all have the same
boiler, but everyone has had their nightmares with this awful product.

The Keston 80 model is apparently out of production now and the Keston
engineer told me that it is almost impossible to get repair work done
on any of their products during winter (unless you’re within the 2
year guarantee period). If you live outside the M25, apparently their
support is even worse.

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real reason for my post was to
find out if anyone could recommend a replacement boiler please? The
current boiler is 80000btu and fits in a kitchen cupboard (resting on
a surface) with dimensions 120cm x 55cm x 42cm. Serviceability and a
reliability are what I’d need and of course, similar level of
efficiency. I’m actually a complete newbie, so could anyone tell me if
I have to continue using a condensing boiler, rather than say a combi?
Also, how much should you pay for an installation and which boilers
would British Gas be able to support? (evidently not Keston!)

Many thanks to anyone who responds.

I know nothing about Keston boilers I might be pleased to relate from your
experience and that of neighbours. I would be seriously concerned about
using BG to support a replacement! I would be even more concerned to allow
BG to install a new boiler - not the ability to do the job, but the timing
of site visit, etc. and even more significant to me the ££££s for the job.

James.Brown wrote:
All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It
came installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years
before springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger
swaps and various other disturbing problems.

For the last three months, we’ve been without heat and 8 engineer
visits later (6 from BG and 2 from Keston), our home still resembles
Antarctica! The boiler will manage about 2hrs before the run lamp
extinguishes, sometimes not firing at all when the timer kicks in.
We’re probably faring worse than our neighbours, who all have the same
boiler, but everyone has had their nightmares with this awful product.

The Keston 80 model is apparently out of production now and the Keston
engineer told me that it is almost impossible to get repair work done
on any of their products during winter (unless you’re within the 2
year guarantee period). If you live outside the M25, apparently their
support is even worse.

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real reason for my post was to
find out if anyone could recommend a replacement boiler please? The
current boiler is 80000btu and fits in a kitchen cupboard (resting on
a surface) with dimensions 120cm x 55cm x 42cm. Serviceability and a
reliability are what I’d need and of course, similar level of
efficiency. I’m actually a complete newbie, so could anyone tell me if
I have to continue using a condensing boiler, rather than say a combi?
Also, how much should you pay for an installation and which boilers
would British Gas be able to support? (evidently not Keston!)

Many thanks to anyone who responds.

AFAIK all boilers must be of the condensing type these days. A friend's
father has a business installing boilers and he put a Worcestor Bosch in her
house, so I'd expect them to be amongst the best.

On 2008-03-29 20:47:47 +0000, "James.Brown" said:

All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It
came installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years
before springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger
swaps and various other disturbing problems.

For the last three months, weve been without heat and 8 engineer
visits later (6 from BG and 2 from Keston), our home still resembles
Antarctica! The boiler will manage about 2hrs before the run lamp
extinguishes, sometimes not firing at all when the timer kicks in.
Were probably faring worse than our neighbours, who all have the same
boiler, but everyone has had their nightmares with this awful product.

The Keston 80 model is apparently out of production now and the Keston
engineer told me that it is almost impossible to get repair work done
on any of their products during winter (unless youre within the 2
year guarantee period). If you live outside the M25, apparently their
support is even worse.

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real reason for my post was to
find out if anyone could recommend a replacement boiler please? The
current boiler is 80000btu and fits in a kitchen cupboard (resting on
a surface) with dimensions 120cm x 55cm x 42cm. Serviceability and a
reliability are what Id need and of course, similar level of
efficiency. Im actually a complete newbie, so could anyone tell me if
I have to continue using a condensing boiler, rather than say a combi?
Also, how much should you pay for an installation and which boilers
would British Gas be able to support? (evidently not Keston!)

Many thanks to anyone who responds.

James.

So you've learnt that BG is inept at service. Ask them to quote for a
replacement and also ask 3-4 local firms and individual installers and
you will find that BG likes to enjoy a high margin as well. Frankly,
you would be better off by far avoiding having further dealings with
this company.

Combi and condensing are not descriptions on the same axis - i.e. they
are not alternatives.

A condensing boiler has higher energy efficiency than a non condensing
one and for a couple of years now it has been a requirement of the
Bulding Regulations that condensing boiler is fitted unless there are
specific circumstances that actually prevent that. Given that you
have already had one, it is highly unlikely that you would meet the
expemtion criteria even if it were desirable to do so.

A combi boiler attempts to heat the water as it passes through the
boiler on an "instant" basis as opposed to the boiler heating a storage
cylinder. Provided that the existing HW system is performing
properly, there is no reason to change to a combi. It would give
mains pressure hot water and with a large enough boiler and modest
enough HW requirement may be adequate. A 23kW combi boiler is
unlikely to be adequate other than in the smallest of dwellings. You
can get up to 40kW or more models which will simply modulate down to
your CH requirement. However, they may exceed your available space.

As far as manufacturers are concerned, you would not go far wrong with
anything of German manufacture or design, including Vaillant, Viessman,
MAN and Worcester Bosch.

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:47:47 -0700, James.Brown wrote:

All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It came
installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years before
springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger swaps
and various other disturbing problems.

For the last three months, weve been without heat and 8 engineer visits
later (6 from BG and 2 from Keston), our home still resembles
Antarctica! The boiler will manage about 2hrs before the run lamp
extinguishes, sometimes not firing at all when the timer kicks in. Were
probably faring worse than our neighbours, who all have the same boiler,
but everyone has had their nightmares with this awful product.

The Keston 80 model is apparently out of production now and the Keston
engineer told me that it is almost impossible to get repair work done on
any of their products during winter (unless youre within the 2 year
guarantee period). If you live outside the M25, apparently their support
is even worse.

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real reason for my post was to
find out if anyone could recommend a replacement boiler please? The
current boiler is 80000btu and fits in a kitchen cupboard (resting on a
surface) with dimensions 120cm x 55cm x 42cm. Serviceability and a
reliability are what Id need and of course, similar level of
efficiency. Im actually a complete newbie, so could anyone tell me if I
have to continue using a condensing boiler, rather than say a combi?
Also, how much should you pay for an installation and which boilers
would British Gas be able to support? (evidently not Keston!)

Many thanks to anyone who responds.

James.

Please read the Boiler Choice FAQ and the wiki.diyfaq.org.uk pages.

I have installed another Keston this week and have one in my own home.
They are not my first choice for reliability but they are not in the same
league as the low end manufacturers either.

They are the boiler of choice when there is a very difficult route for
the flue. This may have been the case with your house; in fact you may
not have easy access to outside walls from the current location of the
boiler.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"James.Brown" wrote in message
...

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real
reason for my post was to find out if anyone
could recommend a replacement boiler please?

Worcester Bosch, Valliant and Glow Worm are good. Atmos are better as are
Viessmann, ACV, Buderus.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-29 20:47:47 +0000, "James.Brown"
said:

SNIP

A 23kW combi boiler is
unlikely to be adequate other than in the smallest of dwellings. You
can get up to 40kW or more models which will simply modulate down to
your CH requirement. However, they may exceed your available space.



I keep reading 23kW is for small houses, but every calculator I try says I
need about 20kW - for a 180sq metre detached house, not very small. Most
reports also say don't over install as it is ineffieicent even with
modulation.

Which is correct?

--
Mark BR

Mark BR wrote:

A 23kW combi boiler is
unlikely to be adequate other than in the smallest of dwellings. You
can get up to 40kW or more models which will simply modulate down to
your CH requirement. However, they may exceed your available space.



I keep reading 23kW is for small houses, but every calculator I try says I
need about 20kW - for a 180sq metre detached house, not very small. Most
reports also say don't over install as it is ineffieicent even with
modulation.

Which is correct?

If you are buying a combi, then you can in effect ignore the space
heating requirement and size it based on your hot water needs. 24kW will
do a decent shower, but will be dismal for bath filling.

Using a boiler with a minimum output that is significantly in excess of
the typical heat loss rate of the house will be less efficient than one
which is better matched, but this is not as big an issue as it used to
be with high water content cast iron heat exchangers etc. If you choose
boiler carefully you can find some that will modulate quite low to just
a few kW... once you subtract the house heatloss of even a well
insulated place from that you should still get reasonably long efficient
burns from it and relatively little cycling.



--
Mark BR




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mark BR wrote:

A 23kW combi boiler is
unlikely to be adequate other than in the smallest of dwellings. You
can get up to 40kW or more models which will simply modulate down to
your CH requirement. However, they may exceed your available space.



I keep reading 23kW is for small houses, but every calculator I try says
I need about 20kW - for a 180sq metre detached house, not very small.
Most reports also say don't over install as it is ineffieicent even with
modulation.

Which is correct?

If you are buying a combi, then you can in effect ignore the space heating
requirement and size it based on your hot water needs. 24kW will do a
decent shower, but will be dismal for bath filling.

Using a boiler with a minimum output that is significantly in excess of
the typical heat loss rate of the house will be less efficient than one
which is better matched, but this is not as big an issue as it used to be
with high water content cast iron heat exchangers etc. If you choose
boiler carefully you can find some that will modulate quite low to just a
few kW...

The lowest is around 3 kW and is not cheap!

once you subtract the house heatloss of even a well insulated place from
that you should still get reasonably long efficient burns from it and
relatively little cycling.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47eeb481@qaanaaq...

A combi boiler attempts to heat the water as it passes through the boiler
on an "instant" basis as opposed to the boiler heating a storage cylinder.

Matt, attempts? Do you mean it doesn't heat the water. Not all combis heat
water instantly, many use stored water using integral unvented cylinders or
thermal stores. Many are two stage in heating DHW using stored water and
reverting to infinitely continuous water after.

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...

I keep reading 23kW is for small houses, but every calculator I try says I
need about 20kW - for a 180sq metre detached house, not very small. Most
reports also say don't over install as it is ineffieicent even with
modulation.

Which is correct?

It depends on the modulating control system. The cheaper boilers tend to
modulate on the flow temp setpoint - maintaining a flow setpoint. The
clever ones sense the flow and return temps. They also use outside weather
compensation trimmed off bu te roomtemperatures.

Best have a boiler with OpenTherm room temp protocols and outside weather
compensation. E.g.'s are Ethos http://www.ethosboilers.co.uk/ and Atmos.
http://www.atmos.uk.com/

On 2008-03-30 15:28:44 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47eeb481@qaanaaq...

A combi boiler attempts to heat the water as it passes through the boiler
on an "instant" basis as opposed to the boiler heating a storage cylinder.

Matt, attempts? Do you mean it doesn't heat the water.

I chose the words carefully. It increases the temperature of the
water. The question is whether it does so by a sufficient amount and
at a sufficient rate for the user requirement.

Not all combis heat water instantly, many use stored water using
integral unvented cylinders or thermal stores.

That we know. We are also talking about a small installation space so
such options are limited.

Many are two stage in heating DHW using stored water and
reverting to infinitely continuous water after.

At a lower flow rate.

Andy/All,

Thank you very much for the great response, your input is really
appreciated. I've had a read around your suggestions and have a few
more questions...

Does anyone have any experience with a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar
30CDi? These can be had for £800 (inc.VAT) and I've heard they won the
CORGI Boiler of the year award last year.

I also looked at the Viessmann Vitodens 200-W, which is twice the
price for the same 30kW output. The warranty also seems to be the same
(2 years), so I'm unsure what the advantage of spending this extra
money would be?

Ed - What is it about the flue that might make a Keston the most
suitable choice?

We actually already have a hot water tank (but no attic storage), so
that rules out a combi and looking at the Wiki, a System boiler seems
to be the correct type. Is that right?

Many thanks

James.

"James.Brown" wrote in message
...
Andy/All,

Thank you very much for the great response, your input is really
appreciated. I've had a read around your suggestions and have a few
more questions...

Does anyone have any experience with a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar
30CDi? These can be had for £800 (inc.VAT) and I've heard they won the
CORGI Boiler of the year award last year.

I also looked at the Viessmann Vitodens 200-W, which is twice the
price for the same 30kW output. The warranty also seems to be the same
(2 years), so I'm unsure what the advantage of spending this extra
money would be?


Viessmann are better quality and may have integral weather compensators. Go
for a boier with an integral weather compensator. Check specs.


Ed - What is it about the flue that might make a Keston the most
suitable choice?


Using cheap plastic drain pipe you can run the flue 60 foot, so weasy to
locate the boiler on the inside of a building.


We actually already have a hot water tank (but no attic storage), so
that rules out a combi and looking at the Wiki, a System boiler seems
to be the correct type. Is that right?


You have a Megaflow then. A high flow combi will free up the cylinder
cupboard. Unvented cylinders require an annual service (do you have one
each year?). They can also do this:
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mark BR wrote:

A 23kW combi boiler is
unlikely to be adequate other than in the smallest of dwellings. You
can get up to 40kW or more models which will simply modulate down to
your CH requirement. However, they may exceed your available space.



I keep reading 23kW is for small houses, but every calculator I try
says I need about 20kW - for a 180sq metre detached house, not very
small. Most reports also say don't over install as it is ineffieicent
even with modulation.

Which is correct?

If you are buying a combi, then you can in effect ignore the space
heating requirement and size it based on your hot water needs. 24kW
will do a decent shower, but will be dismal for bath filling.

Using a boiler with a minimum output that is significantly in excess
of the typical heat loss rate of the house will be less efficient than
one which is better matched, but this is not as big an issue as it
used to be with high water content cast iron heat exchangers etc. If
you choose boiler carefully you can find some that will modulate quite
low to just a few kW...

The lowest is around 3 kW and is not cheap!


Most houses will leak heat faster than that. So even 8kW is still quite
useful once you knock off the rate of loss from the house.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"James.Brown" wrote in message
...
Andy/All,

Thank you very much for the great response, your input is really
appreciated. I've had a read around your suggestions and have a few
more questions...

Does anyone have any experience with a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar
30CDi? These can be had for £800 (inc.VAT) and I've heard they won the
CORGI Boiler of the year award last year.

I also looked at the Viessmann Vitodens 200-W, which is twice the
price for the same 30kW output. The warranty also seems to be the same
(2 years), so I'm unsure what the advantage of spending this extra
money would be?


Viessmann are better quality and may have integral weather
compensators. Go for a boier with an integral weather compensator.
Check specs.


Ed - What is it about the flue that might make a Keston the most
suitable choice?


Using cheap plastic drain pipe you can run the flue 60 foot, so weasy to
locate the boiler on the inside of a building.


We actually already have a hot water tank (but no attic storage), so
that rules out a combi and looking at the Wiki, a System boiler seems
to be the correct type. Is that right?


You have a Megaflow then. A high flow combi will free up the cylinder
cupboard. Unvented cylinders require an annual service (do you have one
each year?). They can also do this:
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

They can do that if yo deliberately defeat all of the safety devices and
then heat them electrically with no thermostatic control. So not
relevant in this case.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:35:45 -0700, James.Brown wrote:

Andy/All,

Thank you very much for the great response, your input is really
appreciated. I've had a read around your suggestions and have a few more
questions...

Does anyone have any experience with a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar 30CDi?
These can be had for £800 (inc.VAT) and I've heard they won the CORGI
Boiler of the year award last year.

I also looked at the Viessmann Vitodens 200-W, which is twice the price
for the same 30kW output. The warranty also seems to be the same (2
years), so I'm unsure what the advantage of spending this extra money
would be?

Ed - What is it about the flue that might make a Keston the most
suitable choice?

We actually already have a hot water tank (but no attic storage), so
that rules out a combi and looking at the Wiki, a System boiler seems to
be the correct type. Is that right?


Firstly, if you are using a stored hot water system then the boiler
should be sized according to the needs of the space heating. Typically
24kW is reasonable for a large terrace house, average large semi, average
detached house +/- for construction methods, materials and size.
This raises the question of whether the original unit was correctly
chosen...

Some manufacturers offer an option to use high quality MUPVC plastic pipe
for the flue (and air intake). This is relatively low cost and even a
long/complex flue won't come to more than £150 of materials.
However Keston boilers only use this type of flue. Other manufacturers
may offer an adaptor but costing an amount comparable to the rest of the
flue materials.

Adding extra extensions, bends and offsets using the proprietary co-ax
flue/duct systems use by nearly all the makes can be prohibitively
expensive. E.g. Even one pair of 45deg bends will set you back most of
£100.

For the above reasons when the flue route is awkward plastic flues need
to be considered. Since you have lost all confidence in Keston you'll
have to use another make and may be sort out the flue route at some
additional expense.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
You have a Megaflow then. A high flow combi will free up the cylinder
cupboard. Unvented cylinders require an annual service (do you have one
each year?). They can also do this:
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

They can do that

They can.

snip the rest

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:35:45 -0700, James.Brown wrote:

Andy/All,

Thank you very much for the great response, your input is really
appreciated. I've had a read around your suggestions and have a few more
questions...

Does anyone have any experience with a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar 30CDi?
These can be had for £800 (inc.VAT) and I've heard they won the CORGI
Boiler of the year award last year.

I also looked at the Viessmann Vitodens 200-W, which is twice the price
for the same 30kW output. The warranty also seems to be the same (2
years), so I'm unsure what the advantage of spending this extra money
would be?

Ed - What is it about the flue that might make a Keston the most
suitable choice?

We actually already have a hot water tank (but no attic storage), so
that rules out a combi and looking at the Wiki, a System boiler seems to
be the correct type. Is that right?


Firstly, if you are using a stored hot water system then the boiler
should be sized according to the needs of the space heating. Typically
24kW is reasonable for a large terrace house, average large semi, average
detached house +/- for construction methods, materials and size.
This raises the question of whether the original unit was correctly
chosen...

Some manufacturers offer an option to use high quality MUPVC plastic pipe
for the flue (and air intake). This is relatively low cost and even a
long/complex flue won't come to more than £150 of materials.
However Keston boilers only use this type of flue. Other manufacturers
may offer an adaptor but costing an amount comparable to the rest of the
flue materials.

Adding extra extensions, bends and offsets using the proprietary co-ax
flue/duct systems use by nearly all the makes can be prohibitively
expensive. E.g. Even one pair of 45deg bends will set you back most of
£100.

For the above reasons when the flue route is awkward plastic flues need
to be considered. Since you have lost all confidence in Keston you'll
have to use another make and may be sort out the flue route at some
additional expense.

Ethos use plastic flues, but no off the shelf drain pipes.

On Mar 29, 9:47 pm, "James.Brown" wrote:
All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It
came installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years
before springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger
swaps and various other disturbing problems.

For the last three months, we've been without heat and 8 engineer
visits later (6 from BG and 2 from Keston), our home still resembles
Antarctica! The boiler will manage about 2hrs before the run lamp
extinguishes, sometimes not firing at all when the timer kicks in.
We're probably faring worse than our neighbours, who all have the same
boiler, but everyone has had their nightmares with this awful product.

The Keston 80 model is apparently out of production now and the Keston
engineer told me that it is almost impossible to get repair work done
on any of their products during winter (unless you're within the 2
year guarantee period). If you live outside the M25, apparently their
support is even worse.

Apart from grumbling about Keston, the real reason for my post was to
find out if anyone could recommend a replacement boiler please? The
current boiler is 80000btu and fits in a kitchen cupboard (resting on
a surface) with dimensions 120cm x 55cm x 42cm. Serviceability and a
reliability are what I'd need and of course, similar level of
efficiency. I'm actually a complete newbie, so could anyone tell me if
I have to continue using a condensing boiler, rather than say a combi?
Also, how much should you pay for an installation and which boilers
would British Gas be able to support? (evidently not Keston!)

Many thanks to anyone who responds.

James.

I bought a Vokera (Italian) system boiler that comes with timer built
in.
I'm very pleased with it. Avoid combi boilers. No boiler=no heat or
hot water
At least with a system boiler you have an immersion heater as backup
of hot water.
Paid about £1000 to have it fitted but I was converting to mains
pressure
hot water tank at the time.

wrote in message
...

I bought a Vokera (Italian) system
boiler that comes with timer built
in.

You poor sod.

I'm very pleased with it. Avoid combi
boilers. No boiler=no heat or hot water

If you buy a quality boiler that is not the case - not a Vokera. You can
have an in-line instant electric heater to do a shower if the combi fails.
So not an issue.

at least with a system boiler you have
an immersion heater as backup of hot water.

And a power shower pump, noise and a cylinder taking up masses of space, and
leaks eventually, etc.

Paid about £1000 to have it fitted but
I was converting to mains pressure
hot water tank at the time.

You poor sod. Have you seen what they do?
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

You also have to pay form an annual service too, just to store water.

Best he goes for a high flow quality combi with an inline electric instant
heater for a shower a DHW at one or two taps.

On Mar 31, 3:19*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 29, 9:47 pm, "James.Brown" wrote:

All,

I'm the unfortunate owner of a Keston 80 condensing gas boiler. It
came installed new with our home in 1999 and lasted about 3 years
before springing a leak, needing a new gas switch, plus heat exchanger
swaps and various other disturbing problems.

[...]

Thank you all for your time and useful advice. Keston are visiting
once more tomorrow and I won't get my hopes up too much for a fix.
I'll be asking plenty of questions about the flue in anticipation of
migrating to a Worcester-Bosch. I'll also ask a local installer
(Blackheath Boilers) for a quote and use them in preference to BG.

Regards

James.

wrote:
I bought a Vokera (Italian) system boiler that comes with timer built
in.
I'm very pleased with it. Avoid combi boilers. No boiler=no heat or
hot water
At least with a system boiler you have an immersion heater as backup
of hot water.
Paid about £1000 to have it fitted but I was converting to mains
pressure
hot water tank at the time.

In my experience (which is limited, I'm not a plumber) the usual reason
for losing your heating is that the mains has gone off, so the pump
won't work.

This means that the immersion heater won't go either...

Andy

In article ,
Andy Champ writes:
wrote:
I bought a Vokera (Italian) system boiler that comes with timer built
in.
I'm very pleased with it. Avoid combi boilers. No boiler=no heat or
hot water
At least with a system boiler you have an immersion heater as backup
of hot water.
Paid about £1000 to have it fitted but I was converting to mains
pressure
hot water tank at the time.

In my experience (which is limited, I'm not a plumber) the usual reason
for losing your heating is that the mains has gone off, so the pump
won't work.

This means that the immersion heater won't go either...

but you probably have a day's worth of hot water stored up there
at that point.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I bought a Vokera (Italian) system boiler that comes with timer built
in.
I'm very pleased with it. Avoid combi boilers. No boiler=no heat or
hot water
At least with a system boiler you have an immersion heater as backup
of hot water.
Paid about £1000 to have it fitted but I was converting to mains
pressure
hot water tank at the time.

In my experience (which is limited, I'm not a plumber) the usual reason
for losing your heating is that the mains has gone off, so the pump won't
work.

This means that the immersion heater won't go either...

A bit of a pointless comparison as, in the event of a mains failure, no
systems work, so all are equal and mains failure outages can be completely
ignored (except that, as AG says, you may have a tank of hot water). When
people talk about "losing your heating" in a worried way, they are referring
to serious, and possibly expensive failures of major system components (such
as the boiler PCB). With a conventional vented system you have two sources
of hot water. This is a significant advantage over a combi. Combi's are very
good at some things - they allow you to use all the loft space and remove
the tanks and remove the airing cupboard - this may suit families who are
growing and can't afford to move, for example (last house I lived in). They
provide unlimited hot water - this may be very, very good in a house with
teenagers who spend forever in the shower! With a big house and plenty of
space (or one that's big enough - present house), I would never get rid of a
conventional system in favour of a combi for the back up reasons, and I like
having an airing cupboard.

Combi's are not the spawn of Satan, as some of the anti-dribblers would have
(we'll perhaps allow Saniflo's that accolade), nor are they the answer to
all problems (as dribble would have) - horses for courses.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

In my experience (which is limited, I'm not a plumber) the usual reason
for losing your heating is that the mains has gone off, so the pump won't
work.

This means that the immersion heater won't go either...

When people talk about "losing your heating" in a worried way, they are
referring to serious, and possibly expensive failures of major system
components (such as the boiler PCB). With a conventional vented system you
have two sources of hot water. This is a significant advantage over a
combi.

It is not a significant advantage at all. Most people do not have
boierfailures often enough to worth worrying about.

Combi's are very good at some things - they allow you to use all the loft
space and remove the tanks and remove the airing cupboard - this may suit
families who are growing and can't afford to move, for example (last house
I lived in). They provide unlimited hot water - this may be very, very
good in a house with teenagers who spend forever in the shower! With a big
house and plenty of space (or one that's big enough - present house), I
would never get rid of a conventional system in favour of a combi for the
back up reasons,

Sounds like paranoia.

and I like having an airing cupboard.

A small radiator can be fitted in the cupboard, or pipe run around the
bottom. Not an issue. With modern highly insulated cylinders and lagged
pipes they emit little heat worth talking about. So little people start
taking the lagging off the pipes to heat the cupboard.

Combi's are not the spawn of Satan,

Much botty talk spaketh. Combis are a panacea. They solve many, many
problems. If you are paranoid of just a DHW outage then fit an inline
electric instant heater for a shower or two taps. The DHW outlet of the
combi runs through it. Or you can fit a cheap combi (they don't take up
much space) and do a complete CH & DHW backup.

If you are really paranoid about backup, have a portable generator in the
garage that runs the lights and boiler and just plugs in and have a second
LPG combi. If the gas fails you have backup. If a power outage you have
backup. It depends how far you want to go.

For most people an in-line electric instant heater will give a shower that
gets you wet and will provide two taps and all from a little box under the
sink, until the boiler is up and running again.

Easy.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mark BR wrote:

A 23kW combi boiler is
unlikely to be adequate other than in the smallest of dwellings. You
can get up to 40kW or more models which will simply modulate down to
your CH requirement. However, they may exceed your available space.



I keep reading 23kW is for small houses, but every calculator I try
says I need about 20kW - for a 180sq metre detached house, not very
small. Most reports also say don't over install as it is ineffieicent
even with modulation.

Which is correct?

If you are buying a combi, then you can in effect ignore the space
heating requirement and size it based on your hot water needs. 24kW will
do a decent shower, but will be dismal for bath filling.

Using a boiler with a minimum output that is significantly in excess of
the typical heat loss rate of the house will be less efficient than one
which is better matched, but this is not as big an issue as it used to
be with high water content cast iron heat exchangers etc. If you choose
boiler carefully you can find some that will modulate quite low to just
a few kW...

The lowest is around 3 kW and is not cheap!

Most houses will leak heat faster than that. So even 8kW is still quite
useful once you knock off the rate of loss from the house.

Once up to temperature most houses do not leak heat at that rate. Only
when -3C outside they will. During most of the heating season they do not.
That is where thermal storage (buffer) shines. Store heat and drip feed it
into the house. Then the boiler operates at optimum hydraulic conditions
when re-heating the buffer.