Hi,

I'm not understanding what the requirement for fires doors with
loft extensions is? Can someone explain?

My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Do all internal doors need to be replaced with 30 minute fire-check
doors with self-closers or rising butt hinges?

Is it only the door entering / exiting the new loft room that needs
a fire check door?

Anything else I need to know about fire regulations for loft
extension?


Thanks

Clive

AIUI you need a "protected route" from the 2nd floor room(s) all the
way to an exit from the building. Again AIUI, that would typically be
all doors opening on to that route to be fire doors and all walls to
have 30 minute fire resistance.

You would also need a "means of escape" window to your 2nd floor
room(s).

Building inspector may also be interested in the adequacy of the
stairs to evacuate the number of people likely to need them in an
emergency (width, steepness, handrails etc) and the adequacy of floors
to act as a fire barrier (as well as the usual structural stuff)

Chapter and verse he http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...314683674.html

"Clive" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I'm not understanding what the requirement for fires doors with
loft extensions is? Can someone explain?

My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Do all internal doors need to be replaced with 30 minute fire-check
doors with self-closers or rising butt hinges?

All internal doors opening onto the route from the loft to the front door
(or nearest exit door), except for bathroom doors. There is, in some areas,
an anomaly. Any *existing* solid doors may be allowed to remain even if they
are not rated fire doors. Any new doors must be rated and any glazed doors
replaced with rated doors. All with self closing mechanism.


Is it only the door entering / exiting the new loft room that needs
a fire check door?

No

Anything else I need to know about fire regulations for loft
extension?

Yes

Exit window at front of house fully opening (Velux or similar) with lower
edge (AFAICR) within 1300mm of gutter (assuming front of house accessible
from road)

30 minute fire protection between loft and room(s) below. Generally 80mm
rockwool nailed between joists and plasterboard and 18mm flooring
sufficient.

All sides of loft conversion that open onto old loft areas above rest of
house need to bo 30min rated. Fireline plasterboard (bloody heavy) with
100mm rockwool, held with netting behind, covers insulation and this
requirement.

Linked fire alarms, one in loft and one in hallway. Usually mains preferred
but battery powered acceptable.

Ask Building Control for full list and no liability accepted etc.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Thanks

Clive

Exit window at front of house fully opening (Velux or similar) with lower
edge (AFAICR) within 1300mm of gutter (assuming front of house accessible
from road)

Bottom edge of window to be between 900 and 1100mm of interior floor
level (or built in steps to make them so). Not sure about distances to
gutters. Doesn't have to be at the front. Just so the descent isn't
into an enclosed area that might be inaccessible for a rescue.

wrote in message
...

Exit window at front of house fully opening (Velux or similar) with lower
edge (AFAICR) within 1300mm of gutter (assuming front of house accessible
from road)

Bottom edge of window to be between 900 and 1100mm of interior floor
level (or built in steps to make them so). Not sure about distances to
gutters. Doesn't have to be at the front. Just so the descent isn't
into an enclosed area that might be inaccessible for a rescue.

It has to be accessible using a ladder from the road - I believe he said it
was a terraced house.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On 14 Mar, 12:10, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"Clive" wrote in message

...

Hi,

I'm not understanding what the requirement for fires doors with
loft extensions is? Can someone explain?

My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Do all internal doors need to be replaced with 30 minute fire-check
doors with self-closers or rising butt hinges?

All internal doors opening onto the route from the loft to the front door
(or nearest exit door), except for bathroom doors. There is, in some areas,
an anomaly. Any *existing* solid doors may be allowed to remain even if they
are not rated fire doors. Any new doors must be rated and any glazed doors
replaced with rated doors. All with self closing mechanism.

AIUI, the new regs have all habitable room doors (not bathroom) onto
the escape route to be replaced with fire doors, but self-closers are
no longer required (thereby acknowlegding the fact that most self-
closers are propped open which makes them less safe in reality).
Simon.

Clive wrote:
Hi,

I'm not understanding what the requirement for fires doors with
loft extensions is? Can someone explain?

My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Do all internal doors need to be replaced with 30 minute fire-check
doors with self-closers or rising butt hinges?

When we had the loft in our old house converted to make a 3rd floor in 2003.

At that time the building regulations required all NEW doors that
opened on the ground, first floor and second floor landings to be
fires door and all existing doors to be fitted with auto-closers.

Is it only the door entering / exiting the new loft room that needs
a fire check door?

It's not necessarily the only door. As it will be a new door it will
need to be a fire door. Any replacements doors on the other floors
would also need to be fire doors.

NB - this is based on our experiences in 2003.

Anything else I need to know about fire regulations for loft
extension?

We had to have a fire escape loft window fitted. It was on the
sloping side (we had a full width/depth rear dormer) and the
bottom of the window was about 18" above the floor.

NB - this is based on our experiences in 2003.

It's worth chatting to your local BCO as they're usually very
helpful.

Guy

sm_jamieson wrote:

AIUI, the new regs have all habitable room doors (not bathroom) onto
the escape route to be replaced with fire doors, but self-closers are
no longer required (thereby acknowlegding the fact that most self-
closers are propped open which makes them less safe in reality).

The requirement to replace the existing doors is a new and important
change over what we were able to do in 2003.

Simon.


Guy

Clive wrote:

I'm not understanding what the requirement for fires doors with
loft extensions is? Can someone explain?

This is made a little more complex due to recent changes in the rules.
You used to be able to used firecheck doors only on the new habitable
rooms, and then simply add self closers to the other doors that open
onto the escape routes (as long as there were no glass panels in the
existing doors etc). However this is no longer the case.

You will now need fire doors on all habitable rooms that open onto the
escape route.

My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Which means you cop the full requirements...

Do all internal doors need to be replaced with 30 minute fire-check
doors with self-closers or rising butt hinges?

Doors yes, but not requirement for closers now.

Is it only the door entering / exiting the new loft room that needs
a fire check door?

Not any more.

Anything else I need to know about fire regulations for loft
extension?

Read through the approved document for full details. A shortlist would
include:

The ceiling to the second floor will need to resit fire for at least 30
mins. 12mm plasterboard with skim over would be ok. 9mm PB would
required additional protection such as rockwook infill over chicken wire
fixed to the joists.

You will need mains powered interlinked smoke alarms on all three storeys.

The means of escape window rules have also changed since I did mine. You
will need to refer to the approved document for that.

--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15 Mar, 03:26, John Rumm wrote:

* *My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Which means you cop the full requirements...

The joiner who did the loft conversion in our last house (Edwardian
terrace) was tearing his hair out over the removal of the alternative
escape provisions, and the insistence on fir doors all the way down.
He reckoned it would seriously affect demand once people realised that
fire doors in older houses entail fire door frames, with knock-on
effect on their original architraves and skirting. Not to mention
cost.

When I was looking on eBay for doors for my current project, I found a
few listings for complete sets of lovely old doors, that Building
Control had insisted be ripped out because of loft conversions. I
think there's a bit of leeway in the regs, in theory, to allow for
architectural merit, but I don't know how that's being applied. I
suppose regulations that fail to prevent the replacement of sliding
sashes with uPVC aren't going to provide much protection :-/

Regards
Richard

On 15 Mar, 08:50, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 15 Mar, 03:26, John Rumm wrote:

My intention is to go from 2 floors in a Victorian end-terrace to 3
floors, putting a habitable bedroom in the loft.

Which means you cop the full requirements...

The joiner who did the loft conversion in our last house (Edwardian
terrace) was tearing his hair out over the removal of the alternative
escape provisions, and the insistence on fir doors all the way down.
He reckoned it would seriously affect demand once people realised that
fire doors in older houses entail fire door frames, with knock-on
effect on their original architraves and skirting. Not to mention
cost.

When I was looking on eBay for doors for my current project, I found a
few listings for complete sets of lovely old doors, that Building
Control had insisted be ripped out because of loft conversions. I
think there's a bit of leeway in the regs, in theory, to allow for
architectural merit, but I don't know how that's being applied. I
suppose regulations that fail to prevent the replacement of sliding
sashes with uPVC aren't going to provide much protection :-/

Regards
Richard

But if he makes reproduction fire doors that look like the originals,
he could
make a killing.
Simon.

I think there's a bit of leeway in the regs, in theory, to allow for
architectural merit, but I don't know how that's being applied.

AIUI to the features mentioned in those with listed buildings status.

geraldthehamster wrote:

The joiner who did the loft conversion in our last house (Edwardian
terrace) was tearing his hair out over the removal of the alternative
escape provisions, and the insistence on fir doors all the way down.
He reckoned it would seriously affect demand once people realised that
fire doors in older houses entail fire door frames, with knock-on
effect on their original architraves and skirting. Not to mention
cost.

If my understanding is correct, you ought to be able to keep all the
existing frames and architraves etc, and just replace the door stops
with deeper ones (25mm).

When I was looking on eBay for doors for my current project, I found a
few listings for complete sets of lovely old doors, that Building
Control had insisted be ripped out because of loft conversions. I
think there's a bit of leeway in the regs, in theory, to allow for
architectural merit, but I don't know how that's being applied. I
suppose regulations that fail to prevent the replacement of sliding
sashes with uPVC aren't going to provide much protection :-/

Yup the doors themselves are more of a problem with the new regs.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15 Mar, 18:51, John Rumm wrote:

If my understanding is correct, you ought to be able to keep all the
existing frames and architraves etc, and just replace the door stops
with deeper ones (25mm).

He reckoned there wasn't room to do this with a lot of older door
frames, plus you have the brush strips in the frame.

Regards
Richard

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:51:20 +0000 John Rumm wrote :
If my understanding is correct, you ought to be able to keep all the
existing frames and architraves etc, and just replace the door stops
with deeper ones (25mm).

Do you need to do that if you put intumescent strips in the door?

I am well out of date on this stuff, but in my BCO days you could keep
panelled doors if they were stripped and then painted with Nullifire
intumescent paint. Not cheap in materials or time so it was hardly
ever done. For older houses the favoured approach was standard flush
fire doors with planted mouldings to make dummy panels.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk