I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

Mike P

Mike P

In message , Mike P
writes

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

There were several lengthy threads in here a few weeks ago. Search on
dejanews aka google.groups

--
Si

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:28:14 +0000, Si $3o&m head
down on the keyboard, banged out this message:

... xxIn message , Mike P
... writes
... xx
... xxI am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
... xxdwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz
... xx
... xxThere were several lengthy threads in here a few weeks ago. Search on
... xxdejanews aka google.groups

Thanks .. will do

Mike P

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:16:50 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:-

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ?

1) You need to decide whether the panel will produce hot water or
electricity.

2) Hot water is the better one to go for first, from all viewpoints
I can think of.

3) There is a lot to be said for a DIY installation.

http://c-zero.co.uk/news.php has a lot of information.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message
...

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

Mike P

Mike P

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's
too cold! In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. For electricity
it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. You would
need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and
inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. The solar panels charge huge
batteries which power the inverters. If you were to plug in a few lights
and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. You
certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or
electric shower.
The space required for batteries is vast - and they are expensive. Then you
get problems of venting off gases.
I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the
80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. 25 years on
and the technology has never advanced. I had hoped they would be selling
kits, but sadly not. Even wind turbines are a waste of time. The best
place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and
generator!

"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message
...

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

Mike P

Mike P

Do you mean for electricity or heat?

In any event there is good info (and products) he
http://c-zero.co.uk/news.php

If heat is your interest then you need to swot up on "heatbanks" with a lot
of additional stuff he http://www.heatweb.com/

David

Pete Smith wrote:
"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message
...
I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

Mike P

Mike P

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's
too cold! In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. For electricity
it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. You would
need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and
inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. The solar panels charge huge
batteries which power the inverters. If you were to plug in a few lights
and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. You
certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or
electric shower.
The space required for batteries is vast - and they are expensive. Then you
get problems of venting off gases.
I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the
80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. 25 years on
and the technology has never advanced. I had hoped they would be selling
kits, but sadly not. Even wind turbines are a waste of time. The best
place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and
generator!


Even that isn't a whole lot of use. What a fuel engine produces compared
with a simple mechanical generator - or indeed a solar cell - off
'natural' energy is several orders of magnitude higher.

Every ton of coal probably represents the energy over a few square
meters for several hundred thousand years.

Which is why 99% of 'alternative energy' is total ********.

On 26 Jan, 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Pete Smith wrote:
"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message
.. .
I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... *plz

Mike P

Mike P

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! *It's
too cold! *In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. *For electricity
it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. *You would
need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and
inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. *The solar panels charge huge
batteries which power the inverters. *If you were to plug in a few lights
and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. *You
certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or
electric shower.
The space required for batteries is vast - and they are expensive. *Then you
get problems of venting off gases.
I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the
80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. *25 years on
and the technology has never advanced. *I had hoped they would be selling
kits, but sadly not. *Even wind turbines are a waste of time. *The best
place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and
generator!

Even that isn't a whole lot of use. What a fuel engine produces compared
with a simple mechanical generator - or indeed a solar cell - off
'natural' energy is several orders of magnitude higher.

Every ton of coal probably represents the energy over a few square
meters for several hundred thousand years.

Which is why 99% of 'alternative energy' is total ********.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I self installed a hot water set up and am still evaluating its
effectiveness. My decision was heavily influenced by the need to
replace my leaking hot water cylinder anyway.
I bought a "kit" from an ebay seller for sub £1000 and disregarded the
cost of installation.
My present thoughts as yet unsubstantiated by figures are that it is
worth having and the fuel bills have been a bit less this year than
last. Considering the rises in fuel costs which have taken place and
are likely to continue to take place with the present bunch of clowns
in charge of our country I believe the move was sensible. Nearly all
my hot water requirements were met by solar last summer with obviouslt
less during the autumn and winter althugh on the rare sunny days this
winter I notice the circulating pump moving heat from the panel to the
cylinder. I remind myself when this happens Gordon and Alastair are
not getting much out of me.

"Pete Smith" wrote in message
...

"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message
...

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

Mike P

Mike P

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's
too cold!

Even in winter the water in the tank which has gone through the solar panel
is several degrees warmer than what's coming from the mains so your gas,
electricity or other fuels isn't being used as much as it might be.

In the summer you don't want scalding hot water.

?

Don't you bathe, wash clothes, wash up etc in summer? We find that we get
dirtier in summer.

For electricity it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the
moment.

Those who use it disagree - but as we keep saying, there's more to buying
ANYTHING than pay back.

You would need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries
and inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. The solar panels charge huge
batteries which power the inverters. If you were to plug in a few lights
and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most.

Nonsense.

You certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage
heaters or electric shower.

Kettles and showers are no problem. Electric fires? Not economical for
anyone.

The space required for batteries is vast -

No it's not.

and they are expensive.

So is wine.

Then you get problems of venting off gases.
I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the
80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. 25 years on
and the technology has never advanced. I had hoped they would be selling
kits, but sadly not. Even wind turbines are a waste of time. The best
place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and
generator!

You're living in the past ...

Mary

In article ,
David Hansen writes:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:16:50 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:-

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ?

1) You need to decide whether the panel will produce hot water or
electricity.

2) Hot water is the better one to go for first, from all viewpoints
I can think of.

3) There is a lot to be said for a DIY installation.

Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only
thing at the moment which is even remotely viable.

I think the next area where things might become viable
are incorporation of such technologies at build time
when the technology gets to the stage where it can be
installed by the same limited skilled labour which is
already on the building site without any significant
extra effort. At the moment, the cost of specialist
installers render the payback longer than the life of
most systems, even if the parts themselves were free.

Photovoltaics start from the disadvantage of being
horribly inefficient, and there's a bit of a world
shortage of the pure silicon needed (not to mention
that manufacturing it is expensive in energy use).
They also stop working as they heat up, and due to
their poor efficiency, most of the energy they collect
goes into heating them up. Altogether a poor solution
which is crying out for a technological advance which
instantly makes the current technology obsolete, but
has eluded scientists for decades so far.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Mike P mike@askme wrote:

I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz

For domestic use, if you're talking about photovoltaic, it may be worth
holding off for some (undefined, long) time. Since we seem to be on the
edge of the rollout of new technology for solar PV.

At present the cells are made by slicing silicon crystals into wafers,
doing some technical jiggery-pokery then mounting slices of the wafer
into a PV array. It's an expensive process and because the silicon is
fragile subject to a highish failure rate in the factory.

A couple of companies are claiming to have made progress in depositing
silicon onto a glass substrate in a new (cheaper) process. The forecasts
have been made by the companies that they coudl reduce costs to about 1%
of current costs. I suspect that would mean a fall to about 10% of
current costs for consumers.

If it's true and not just vapourware this could be a bad time to be
buying the current hideously expensive cells.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:16:11 -0000, "Vortex3"
head down on the keyboard, banged out
this message:

... xx
... xx"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message
... . ..
... xx
... xx I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic
... xx dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz
... xx
... xx Mike P
... xx
... xx Mike P
... xx
... xxDo you mean for electricity or heat?
... xx
... xxIn any event there is good info (and products) he
... xxhttp://c-zero.co.uk/news.php
... xx
... xxIf heat is your interest then you need to swot up on "heatbanks" with a lot
... xxof additional stuff he http://www.heatweb.com/
... xx
... xxDavid


I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old
and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water.
I am not convinced it is a good idea.
He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to
downsize.



Mike P

On 2008-01-26 21:40:11 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:

I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old
and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water.

Oh no......


I am not convinced it is a good idea.

... and you are absolutely right.


He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to
downsize.


Probably the reverse because it's adding some complexity and
maintenance uncertainty that some buyers may be unwilling to take.
I would suggest you arrange an opinion from an estate agent. I
suspect that at best, they will say it's neutral, and are more likely
to say that it's a liability.

Assuming that he does his downsizing in the next 5-10 years, he's not
going to see a saving in energy cost that will go anywhere near to
covering the installation.

Normally I would say 'caveat emptor', but here I have to say that this
is nothing short of exploitation of the elderly, and it disgusts me.
The amount gives the rest of the clue. The salesperson knows full
well that there is no way in hell, even if the gentleman lives to be
the age of a WW1 veteran, that he will ever realise a return on his
"investment".

Can you get your partner to convince him, if he won't listen to you?

On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only
thing at the moment which is even remotely viable.

If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period.

Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't
install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new
television or kitchen are examples.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith"
wrote this:-

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's
too cold!

What is too cold? The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the
sun, not the external temperature.

In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce
all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided
means less other fuels are needed.

On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed
up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a
solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating
system designed for this.

In the summer you don't want scalding hot water.

Any properly designed solar system will have at least one
thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system.

Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a
variety of ways of doing this.

The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters.

That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only
island system. However, such systems generally have other means of
charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency
and so tend to avoid electric fires.

A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a
big battery.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:40:11 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:-

I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old
and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water.
I am not convinced it is a good idea.

I think you are right. Unless there is a particular complexity, such
as east/west orientation, it is a lot. Solartwin are advertising
installation from £1500 less.

He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to
downsize.

I think this is the wrong reason to install such a system.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:45:10 +0000 someone who may be AJH
wrote this:-

I'm convinced he never saw any savings simply because he left
his gas dhw system configured as before.

Changing the settings on other water heating systems is part of the
installation process of anybody who knows what they are doing.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2008-01-27 09:34:20 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only
thing at the moment which is even remotely viable.

If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period.

Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't
install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new
television or kitchen are examples.

Televisions and kitchens are not sold on the basis of a payback period.
Solar panels, to a great extent are.

Therefore to make a comparison is not valid in the way that you have done.

Why does somebody buy a television? Generally because they like to
watch the programs on it - perhaps it makes them feel good.

Why do they buy a kitchen? Partly functionality and partly because the
look pleases them and makes them feel good.

If you were to say that some people might like to have a solar panel
because the appearance pleases them, then fair enough. Perhaps there's
a market for dummy ones at a tenth of the price of a real one that
would satisfy that market.

If you were to say that some people might like to buy a solar panel in
order to feel good that they ar "doing their bit for the environment"
then also fair enough. They might want to research a bit further and
learn that it doesn't actually achieve very much, but if the feel good
factor is there then why not? The small number is not going to have
any significant impact one way or the other.

I'm expecting to see the Chinese introducing little house windmills to
the market really soon now. These will be light in weight and cheap to
manufacture (and resource friendly) and have a little motor inside to
drive the blades round when there is little or no wind; will run from a
highly efficient switched mode wall wart. People should feel good
about these as well and they'll be every bit as effective as the "real
thing".

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:00:25 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Televisions and kitchens are not sold on the basis of a payback period.
Solar panels, to a great extent are.

Nice try, but incorrect.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:56:47 +0000, David Hansen
head down on the keyboard, banged
out this message:

... xxOn Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:40:11 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
... xxmike@askme wrote this:-
... xx
... xxI am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old
... xxand has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water.
... xxI am not convinced it is a good idea.
... xx
... xxI think you are right. Unless there is a particular complexity, such
... xxas east/west orientation, it is a lot. Solartwin are advertising
... xxinstallation from £1500 less.
... xx
... xxHe is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to
... xxdownsize.
... xx
... xxI think this is the wrong reason to install such a system.


It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork
(deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for
the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe.

My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can
make head or tail of it all.
It might be all bonafide, but the no cooling period off is worrying
and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use
antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles!


Mike P

In message , Mike P
writes
he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use
antifreeze, not water.

antifreeze in the water that circulates through the outdoor solar
collectors is sensible.

--
Si

On 2008-01-27 10:33:03 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:00:25 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Televisions and kitchens are not sold on the basis of a payback period.
Solar panels, to a great extent are.

Nice try, but incorrect.

Really?

Do tell.

You mean that they are sold as roof decorations?

If it's not feel good or look good and isn't payback, it doesn't really
leave a lot, does it?

On 2008-01-27 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:

It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork
(deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for
the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe.

He paid by cash or cheque?


My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can
make head or tail of it all.
It might be all bonafide, but the no cooling period off is worrying
and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use
antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles!


That bit's almost right...

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:10:38 +0000, Si $3o&m head
down on the keyboard, banged out this message:

... xxIn message , Mike P
... writes
... xxhe alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use
... xxantifreeze, not water.
... xx
... xxantifreeze in the water that circulates through the outdoor solar
... xxcollectors is sensible.

Obviously .... too me and many others, but maybe not to an 80 year
old.

If that is what he was told, I wonder what other gems he was fed.
The irony is that he can get a grant for all this if he really wants
it.

Mike P

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:17:10 +0000, Andy Hall head
down on the keyboard, banged out this message:

... xxOn 2008-01-27 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:
... xx
... xx It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork
... xx (deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for
... xx the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe.
... xx
... xxHe paid by cash or cheque?
... xx
... xx
... xx My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can
... xx make head or tail of it all.
... xx It might be all bonafide, but the no cooling period off is worrying
... xx and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use
... xx antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles!
... xx
... xx
... xxThat bit's almost right...
... xx

Deposit paid with a M&S Credit card.

Mike P

In message , Mike P
writes
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:17:10 +0000, Andy Hall head
down on the keyboard, banged out this message:

.. xxOn 2008-01-27 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:
.. xx
.. xx It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork
.. xx (deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for
.. xx the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe.
.. xx
.. xxHe paid by cash or cheque?
.. xx
.. xx
.. xx My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can
.. xx make head or tail of it all.
.
.. xx

Deposit paid with a M&S Credit card.

He/She needs to enlist the assistance of M&S (or HSBC which appears to
operate the card on behalf of M&S) asap and explain the situation.

--
Si

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:15:27 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

If it's not feel good or look good and isn't payback, it doesn't really
leave a lot, does it?

Reasons for installing them have been explained before. The fact
that some reject these reasons does not make them invalid, no matter
how much some huff and puff.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:30:59 +0000 someone who may be AJH
wrote this:-

Apart from the price I'm sure it was a reasonable installation if run
properly but most punters just expect to turn a tap or push a button
and get instant results.

It is certainly better to control the boiler from the solar
controller. However, this means even more work and thus pushes the
cost of a non-DIY installation higher.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:48:48 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:-

and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight

Possibly partly correct. Some types of solar collector do not need
direct sunlight to produce usable heat.

and it will use antifreeze, not water.

40% antifreeze and 60% water is more than adequate for the UK.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:21:09 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:-

The irony is that he can get a grant for all this if he really wants
it.

There are a variety of grants, depending on which country he lives
in and whether the council have additional schemes. However, I doubt
if anyone could get a full grant for a solar system.

Particularly in England the grant scheme is a mess and one may
wonder whether this is accidental or deliberate.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P wrote:

but the no cooling period off is worrying and he alledgedly


was told it does not need sunlight and it will use antifreeze, not
water. The mind boggles!

Why? Thermal solar panels don't need direct sunlight to work, you get more
energy collected on bright sunny days but you stiill get some on dull
overcast ones. Any decent system will circulate a antifreeze mixture so
you don't have to drain it down in the winter...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 2008-01-27 11:26:12 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:17:10 +0000, Andy Hall head
down on the keyboard, banged out this message:

.. xxOn 2008-01-27 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:
.. xx
.. xx It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork
.. xx (deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for
.. xx the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe.
.. xx
.. xxHe paid by cash or cheque?
.. xx
.. xx
.. xx My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can
.. xx make head or tail of it all.
.. xx It might be all bonafide, but the no cooling period off is worrying
.. xx and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use
.. xx antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles!
.. xx
.. xx
.. xxThat bit's almost right...
.. xx

Deposit paid with a M&S Credit card.

Mike P

OK.

If after discussion, it's decided to try to cancel the idea, then it
could be worth making contact with them as well. There is the various
consumer credit legislation that may be helpful, and there may also be
avenues related to Distance Selling Regulations, although I believe
there are rules there based around who contacted who and where the
selling was done. In all of these, time is probably of the essence.
The Citizens Advice Bureau are worth contacting, as is the Consumer
Direct helpline. This kind of stuff is standard fare for them.

On 2008-01-27 12:36:20 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:15:27 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

If it's not feel good or look good and isn't payback, it doesn't really
leave a lot, does it?

Reasons for installing them have been explained before. The fact
that some reject these reasons does not make them invalid, no matter
how much some huff and puff.

There's no huff and puff.

Please answer the question.

If it's not feel good or look good and isn't payback, what is it?

David Hansen wrote:
On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only
thing at the moment which is even remotely viable.

If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period.

Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't
install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new
television or kitchen are examples.


Yes, but they have validity outside pure cost benefit.

If you want to salve your conscience, a priest is cheaper.

David Hansen wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith"
wrote this:-

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's
too cold!

What is too cold?

Te sky is too cold.

The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the
sun, not the external temperature.


Exactly. Something that is in such short supply in winter, that peopl
need vitamin supplements..


In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce
all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided
means less other fuels are needed.

On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed
up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a
solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating
system designed for this.


On a sunny winters day, my room that has been warmed up by the boiler,
simply needs the curtrinsns drawing back to absorb far more sunlight
than a stupid panel on the roof.

In the summer you don't want scalding hot water.

Any properly designed solar system will have at least one
thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system.

Why not use curtains?

Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a
variety of ways of doing this.

The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters.

That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only
island system. However, such systems generally have other means of
charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency
and so tend to avoid electric fires.

A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a
big battery.

Lord. All this cost an complexity and heavy use of energy to produce
less energy than the things took to make.

It reminds me of the 'we will never run out of oil' brigade. True, but
when it takes more energy to get it out of the ground than is released
by burning it, you do end up with some absurd economics.

Not something *you* would be bothered by, mind you.

David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:48:48 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:-

and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight

Possibly partly correct. Some types of solar collector do not need
direct sunlight to produce usable heat.


No solar collector needs direct sunlight to proiduce useable heat. In
pathetically small quantities.


As opposed to merely *rather* pathetically small quantities.

The most efficient way to collect it is a black carpet in a triple
glazed room.



and it will use antifreeze, not water.

40% antifreeze and 60% water is more than adequate for the UK.

David Hansen wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:15:27 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

If it's not feel good or look good and isn't payback, it doesn't really
leave a lot, does it?

Reasons for installing them have been explained before. The fact
that some reject these reasons does not make them invalid, no matter
how much some huff and puff.

Personal abuse, excellent.

In article ,
David Hansen writes:
On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only
thing at the moment which is even remotely viable.

If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period.

For most people, that will be the only measure. For a few
people, energy payback might be a consideration, but photo-
voltaics really struggle to produce more energy during their
lifetime than they consume in manufacture, so there's no big
win there.

For a really few geeks like me, I'll pay extra just for my
own opportunity to play with the technology. E.g. I invested
in a condensing boiler long before they were mandatory and
when they were at a price premium, because the technology
interested me and I wanted to try designing a heating system
to make good use of one (which I did).

If I had a south facing roof, I would be interested in
playing with some type of solar energy project on the same
basis. However, with my roof ridge running north-south so
it's never going to work well, and needing scaffolding in my
neighbour's garden, and the outlay (even DIY'ed) with no
prospects of any realistic savings, it really is a complete
waste of effort even at the geek level.

I installed air-con with heat-pump heating a couple of years
ago, and that looks to provide viable heat. It claims 3.5kW
for 1.2kW power consumption. It's very difficult to measure
what it produces; it does output more heat than a 2kW fan
heater but I haven't got more than 2kW to compare it with
so I don't know if it reaches 3.5kW. It is limited to quite
a narrow range of outdoor temperatures -- above about 12C
and I don't seem to need it, and below about 5C and you
can't use a heat pump air exchanger as it will ice up and
waste energy defrosting itself. For quickly heating one room
it's very good, but as an energy saving measure, it's probably
a non-starter. If prices of such units drop to the level they
are in some countries where they are more common, then they
would be viable for DIY installs.

Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't
install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new
television or kitchen are examples.

Take the cost of a kitchen (I think mine was around £4k, but
as I did it piecemeal, I never actually added it up) and
divide by, say, 15 years life, and that's around £260/year,
i.e. it's costing me less than £1/day for a kitchen. That
seems like very good value. Of course, if you pay commercial
installation rates, it will be a good deal higher. I didn't
replace any of the appliances as they were in good shape,
replacement was not cost-justified, and they fit in quite
well with the new kitchen. I did however plan the new kitchen
such that they can be replaced as I don't expect them to all
last 15 years.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 27 Jan 2008 13:29:58 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

For a few
people, energy payback might be a consideration, but photo-
voltaics really struggle to produce more energy during their
lifetime than they consume in manufacture,

It is a common claim, but still an incorrect one. It may have been
true in the 1970s, but that was a long time ago and engineering has
moved on since then.

However, unlike a hot water installation, such an installation on a
house is unlikely to pay for itself in any financial terms. If
someone installs one they should do it for other reasons. In
financial terms such installations only make sense if an external
supply is not available and they are combined with other sources.

If I had a south facing roof, I would be interested in
playing with some type of solar energy project on the same
basis. However, with my roof ridge running north-south so
it's never going to work well, and needing scaffolding in my
neighbour's garden,

Solar water systems with east and west facing panels work well. Not
ideal and more expensive than a single panel (as well as two panels
a more expensive controller and perhaps two pumps are necessary),
but they still work well.

and the outlay (even DIY'ed) with no
prospects of any realistic savings,

If one believes the assertions of the antis.

Take the cost of a kitchen (I think mine was around £4k, but
as I did it piecemeal, I never actually added it up) and
divide by, say, 15 years life, and that's around £260/year,
i.e. it's costing me less than £1/day for a kitchen.

An east/west solar thermal installation which cost say £2000 to
install would cost half that, even if it produced no saving of fuel.
In reality it would produce a saving in fuel.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:13:49 +0000 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:-

I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's
too cold!

What is too cold?

Te sky is too cold.

To cold for what?

The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the
sun, not the external temperature.

Exactly. Something that is in such short supply in winter, that peopl
need vitamin supplements..

Shunshine is in enough supply in winter to provide some hot water.
That reduces the consumption of other fuels.

On a sunny winters day, my room that has been warmed up by the boiler,
simply needs the curtrinsns drawing back to absorb far more sunlight
than a stupid panel on the roof.

That rather depends on the relative size of the panel and the window
and the angle they face the sun.

Anyway, heat from a panel can be deposited in the north facing rooms
via the radiators. Doing the same thing with heat from south facing
rooms via fans is possible, but not practised often in the UK.
Making suitable ducts in the typical UK house would involve energy,
space and money. Modifying an existing heating system is rather less
involved.

Lord. All this cost an complexity and heavy use of energy to produce
less energy than the things took to make.

A common assertion, but still an incorrect one. It may have been
correct in the 1970s, but these are not the 1970s. PV panels have
moved on a lot since then.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54