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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz Mike P Mike P |
#2
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
In message , Mike P
writes I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz There were several lengthy threads in here a few weeks ago. Search on dejanews aka google.groups -- Si |
#3
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:28:14 +0000, Si $3o&m head
down on the keyboard, banged out this message: ... xxIn message , Mike P ... writes ... xx ... xxI am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic ... xxdwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz ... xx ... xxThere were several lengthy threads in here a few weeks ago. Search on ... xxdejanews aka google.groups Thanks .. will do Mike P |
#4
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:16:50 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:- I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? 1) You need to decide whether the panel will produce hot water or electricity. 2) Hot water is the better one to go for first, from all viewpoints I can think of. 3) There is a lot to be said for a DIY installation. http://c-zero.co.uk/news.php has a lot of information. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#5
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
In article ,
David Hansen writes: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:16:50 +0000 someone who may be Mike P mike@askme wrote this:- I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? 1) You need to decide whether the panel will produce hot water or electricity. 2) Hot water is the better one to go for first, from all viewpoints I can think of. 3) There is a lot to be said for a DIY installation. Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only thing at the moment which is even remotely viable. I think the next area where things might become viable are incorporation of such technologies at build time when the technology gets to the stage where it can be installed by the same limited skilled labour which is already on the building site without any significant extra effort. At the moment, the cost of specialist installers render the payback longer than the life of most systems, even if the parts themselves were free. Photovoltaics start from the disadvantage of being horribly inefficient, and there's a bit of a world shortage of the pure silicon needed (not to mention that manufacturing it is expensive in energy use). They also stop working as they heat up, and due to their poor efficiency, most of the energy they collect goes into heating them up. Altogether a poor solution which is crying out for a technological advance which instantly makes the current technology obsolete, but has eluded scientists for decades so far. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#6
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:- Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only thing at the moment which is even remotely viable. If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period. Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new television or kitchen are examples. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#7
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On 2008-01-27 09:34:20 +0000, David Hansen
said: On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:- Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only thing at the moment which is even remotely viable. If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period. Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new television or kitchen are examples. Televisions and kitchens are not sold on the basis of a payback period. Solar panels, to a great extent are. Therefore to make a comparison is not valid in the way that you have done. Why does somebody buy a television? Generally because they like to watch the programs on it - perhaps it makes them feel good. Why do they buy a kitchen? Partly functionality and partly because the look pleases them and makes them feel good. If you were to say that some people might like to have a solar panel because the appearance pleases them, then fair enough. Perhaps there's a market for dummy ones at a tenth of the price of a real one that would satisfy that market. If you were to say that some people might like to buy a solar panel in order to feel good that they ar "doing their bit for the environment" then also fair enough. They might want to research a bit further and learn that it doesn't actually achieve very much, but if the feel good factor is there then why not? The small number is not going to have any significant impact one way or the other. I'm expecting to see the Chinese introducing little house windmills to the market really soon now. These will be light in weight and cheap to manufacture (and resource friendly) and have a little motor inside to drive the blades round when there is little or no wind; will run from a highly efficient switched mode wall wart. People should feel good about these as well and they'll be every bit as effective as the "real thing". |
#8
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:00:25 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:- Televisions and kitchens are not sold on the basis of a payback period. Solar panels, to a great extent are. Nice try, but incorrect. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#9
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
David Hansen wrote:
On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:- Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only thing at the moment which is even remotely viable. If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period. Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new television or kitchen are examples. Yes, but they have validity outside pure cost benefit. If you want to salve your conscience, a priest is cheaper. |
#10
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
In article ,
David Hansen writes: On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:- Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only thing at the moment which is even remotely viable. If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period. For most people, that will be the only measure. For a few people, energy payback might be a consideration, but photo- voltaics really struggle to produce more energy during their lifetime than they consume in manufacture, so there's no big win there. For a really few geeks like me, I'll pay extra just for my own opportunity to play with the technology. E.g. I invested in a condensing boiler long before they were mandatory and when they were at a price premium, because the technology interested me and I wanted to try designing a heating system to make good use of one (which I did). If I had a south facing roof, I would be interested in playing with some type of solar energy project on the same basis. However, with my roof ridge running north-south so it's never going to work well, and needing scaffolding in my neighbour's garden, and the outlay (even DIY'ed) with no prospects of any realistic savings, it really is a complete waste of effort even at the geek level. I installed air-con with heat-pump heating a couple of years ago, and that looks to provide viable heat. It claims 3.5kW for 1.2kW power consumption. It's very difficult to measure what it produces; it does output more heat than a 2kW fan heater but I haven't got more than 2kW to compare it with so I don't know if it reaches 3.5kW. It is limited to quite a narrow range of outdoor temperatures -- above about 12C and I don't seem to need it, and below about 5C and you can't use a heat pump air exchanger as it will ice up and waste energy defrosting itself. For quickly heating one room it's very good, but as an energy saving measure, it's probably a non-starter. If prices of such units drop to the level they are in some countries where they are more common, then they would be viable for DIY installs. Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new television or kitchen are examples. Take the cost of a kitchen (I think mine was around £4k, but as I did it piecemeal, I never actually added it up) and divide by, say, 15 years life, and that's around £260/year, i.e. it's costing me less than £1/day for a kitchen. That seems like very good value. Of course, if you pay commercial installation rates, it will be a good deal higher. I didn't replace any of the appliances as they were in good shape, replacement was not cost-justified, and they fit in quite well with the new kitchen. I did however plan the new kitchen such that they can be replaced as I don't expect them to all last 15 years. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#12
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , David Hansen writes: On 26 Jan 2008 17:02:39 GMT someone who may be (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:- Hot water system which is DIY installed is the only thing at the moment which is even remotely viable. If one measures viability only in terms of simple payback period. For most people, that will be the only measure. For a few people, energy payback might be a consideration, but photo- voltaics really struggle to produce more energy during their lifetime than they consume in manufacture, so there's no big win there. For a really few geeks like me, I'll pay extra just for my own opportunity to play with the technology. E.g. I invested in a condensing boiler long before they were mandatory and when they were at a price premium, because the technology interested me and I wanted to try designing a heating system to make good use of one (which I did). If I had a south facing roof, I would be interested in playing with some type of solar energy project on the same basis. However, with my roof ridge running north-south so it's never going to work well, and needing scaffolding in my neighbour's garden, and the outlay (even DIY'ed) with no prospects of any realistic savings, it really is a complete waste of effort even at the geek level. I installed air-con with heat-pump heating a couple of years ago, and that looks to provide viable heat. It claims 3.5kW for 1.2kW power consumption. It's very difficult to measure what it produces; it does output more heat than a 2kW fan heater but I haven't got more than 2kW to compare it with so I don't know if it reaches 3.5kW. It is limited to quite a narrow range of outdoor temperatures -- above about 12C and I don't seem to need it, and below about 5C and you can't use a heat pump air exchanger as it will ice up and waste energy defrosting itself. For quickly heating one room it's very good, but as an energy saving measure, it's probably a non-starter. If prices of such units drop to the level they are in some countries where they are more common, then they would be viable for DIY installs. Of course if one does this then there are many things one shouldn't install as they have infinite simple payback periods. A new television or kitchen are examples. Take the cost of a kitchen (I think mine was around £4k, but as I did it piecemeal, I never actually added it up) and divide by, say, 15 years life, and that's around £260/year, i.e. it's costing me less than £1/day for a kitchen. That seems like very good value. For some values of 'value'. |
#13
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message ... I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz Mike P Mike P I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. For electricity it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. You would need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. If you were to plug in a few lights and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. You certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or electric shower. The space required for batteries is vast - and they are expensive. Then you get problems of venting off gases. I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the 80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. 25 years on and the technology has never advanced. I had hoped they would be selling kits, but sadly not. Even wind turbines are a waste of time. The best place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and generator! |
#14
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
Pete Smith wrote:
"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message ... I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz Mike P Mike P I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. For electricity it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. You would need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. If you were to plug in a few lights and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. You certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or electric shower. The space required for batteries is vast - and they are expensive. Then you get problems of venting off gases. I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the 80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. 25 years on and the technology has never advanced. I had hoped they would be selling kits, but sadly not. Even wind turbines are a waste of time. The best place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and generator! Even that isn't a whole lot of use. What a fuel engine produces compared with a simple mechanical generator - or indeed a solar cell - off 'natural' energy is several orders of magnitude higher. Every ton of coal probably represents the energy over a few square meters for several hundred thousand years. Which is why 99% of 'alternative energy' is total ********. |
#15
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On 26 Jan, 13:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Pete Smith wrote: "Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message .. . I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... *plz Mike P Mike P I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! *It's too cold! *In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. *For electricity it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. *You would need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. *The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. *If you were to plug in a few lights and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. *You certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or electric shower. The space required for batteries is vast - and they are expensive. *Then you get problems of venting off gases. I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the 80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. *25 years on and the technology has never advanced. *I had hoped they would be selling kits, but sadly not. *Even wind turbines are a waste of time. *The best place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and generator! Even that isn't a whole lot of use. What a fuel engine produces compared with a simple mechanical generator - or indeed a solar cell - off 'natural' energy is several orders of magnitude higher. Every ton of coal probably represents the energy over a few square meters for several hundred thousand years. Which is why 99% of 'alternative energy' is total ********.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I self installed a hot water set up and am still evaluating its effectiveness. My decision was heavily influenced by the need to replace my leaking hot water cylinder anyway. I bought a "kit" from an ebay seller for sub £1000 and disregarded the cost of installation. My present thoughts as yet unsubstantiated by figures are that it is worth having and the fuel bills have been a bit less this year than last. Considering the rises in fuel costs which have taken place and are likely to continue to take place with the present bunch of clowns in charge of our country I believe the move was sensible. Nearly all my hot water requirements were met by solar last summer with obviouslt less during the autumn and winter althugh on the rare sunny days this winter I notice the circulating pump moving heat from the panel to the cylinder. I remind myself when this happens Gordon and Alastair are not getting much out of me. |
#16
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
"Pete Smith" wrote in message ... "Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message ... I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz Mike P Mike P I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! Even in winter the water in the tank which has gone through the solar panel is several degrees warmer than what's coming from the mains so your gas, electricity or other fuels isn't being used as much as it might be. In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. ? Don't you bathe, wash clothes, wash up etc in summer? We find that we get dirtier in summer. For electricity it's far too expensive, you wouldn't save anything at the moment. Those who use it disagree - but as we keep saying, there's more to buying ANYTHING than pay back. You would need a lot of solar cells, covering most of the roof, batteries and inverters to raise the voltage to 240v. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. If you were to plug in a few lights and a TV or computer then it might last a few hours at the most. Nonsense. You certainly can't use things like a kettle, electric fire, storage heaters or electric shower. Kettles and showers are no problem. Electric fires? Not economical for anyone. The space required for batteries is vast - No it's not. and they are expensive. So is wine. Then you get problems of venting off gases. I looked at set ups in the Alternative Technology Centre in Wales in the 80's and they predicted everyone would be using solar power. 25 years on and the technology has never advanced. I had hoped they would be selling kits, but sadly not. Even wind turbines are a waste of time. The best place to live is by a stream or river and to construct a waterwheel and generator! You're living in the past ... Mary |
#17
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith"
wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided means less other fuels are needed. On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating system designed for this. In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. Any properly designed solar system will have at least one thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system. Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a variety of ways of doing this. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only island system. However, such systems generally have other means of charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency and so tend to avoid electric fires. A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a big battery. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#18
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
David Hansen wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith" wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? Te sky is too cold. The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Exactly. Something that is in such short supply in winter, that peopl need vitamin supplements.. In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided means less other fuels are needed. On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating system designed for this. On a sunny winters day, my room that has been warmed up by the boiler, simply needs the curtrinsns drawing back to absorb far more sunlight than a stupid panel on the roof. In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. Any properly designed solar system will have at least one thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system. Why not use curtains? Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a variety of ways of doing this. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only island system. However, such systems generally have other means of charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency and so tend to avoid electric fires. A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a big battery. Lord. All this cost an complexity and heavy use of energy to produce less energy than the things took to make. It reminds me of the 'we will never run out of oil' brigade. True, but when it takes more energy to get it out of the ground than is released by burning it, you do end up with some absurd economics. Not something *you* would be bothered by, mind you. |
#19
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:13:49 +0000 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? Te sky is too cold. To cold for what? The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Exactly. Something that is in such short supply in winter, that peopl need vitamin supplements.. Shunshine is in enough supply in winter to provide some hot water. That reduces the consumption of other fuels. On a sunny winters day, my room that has been warmed up by the boiler, simply needs the curtrinsns drawing back to absorb far more sunlight than a stupid panel on the roof. That rather depends on the relative size of the panel and the window and the angle they face the sun. Anyway, heat from a panel can be deposited in the north facing rooms via the radiators. Doing the same thing with heat from south facing rooms via fans is possible, but not practised often in the UK. Making suitable ducts in the typical UK house would involve energy, space and money. Modifying an existing heating system is rather less involved. Lord. All this cost an complexity and heavy use of energy to produce less energy than the things took to make. A common assertion, but still an incorrect one. It may have been correct in the 1970s, but these are not the 1970s. PV panels have moved on a lot since then. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#20
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:13:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
David Hansen wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith" wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? Te sky is too cold. The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Exactly. Something that is in such short supply in winter, that peopl need vitamin supplements.. In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided means less other fuels are needed. On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating system designed for this. On a sunny winters day, my room that has been warmed up by the boiler, simply needs the curtrinsns drawing back to absorb far more sunlight than a stupid panel on the roof. In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. Any properly designed solar system will have at least one thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system. Why not use curtains? Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a variety of ways of doing this. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only island system. However, such systems generally have other means of charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency and so tend to avoid electric fires. A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a big battery. Lord. All this cost an complexity and heavy use of energy to produce less energy than the things took to make. It reminds me of the 'we will never run out of oil' brigade. True, but when it takes more energy to get it out of the ground than is released by burning it, you do end up with some absurd economics. Not something *you* would be bothered by, mind you. True, the oil companies stop pumping long before that point is reached because of all the other overheads. This means there is quite a lot of reserves which are held back until the price of oil is sustainably high enough. Therefore there will a longish transition period from oil to other sources of energy, which currently are not worth the effort. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#21
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
Ed Sirett wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:13:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: David Hansen wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith" wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? Te sky is too cold. The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Exactly. Something that is in such short supply in winter, that peopl need vitamin supplements.. In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided means less other fuels are needed. On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating system designed for this. On a sunny winters day, my room that has been warmed up by the boiler, simply needs the curtrinsns drawing back to absorb far more sunlight than a stupid panel on the roof. In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. Any properly designed solar system will have at least one thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system. Why not use curtains? Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a variety of ways of doing this. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only island system. However, such systems generally have other means of charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency and so tend to avoid electric fires. A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a big battery. Lord. All this cost an complexity and heavy use of energy to produce less energy than the things took to make. It reminds me of the 'we will never run out of oil' brigade. True, but when it takes more energy to get it out of the ground than is released by burning it, you do end up with some absurd economics. Not something *you* would be bothered by, mind you. True, the oil companies stop pumping long before that point is reached because of all the other overheads. This means there is quite a lot of reserves which are held back until the price of oil is sustainably high enough. Therefore there will a longish transition period from oil to other sources of energy, which currently are not worth the effort. Longish in what terms? a decade or two? |
#22
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:50:37 +0000, Dynamo Hansen
wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:48:14 -0000 someone who may be "Pete Smith" wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Hrmmph. "Work on the sun"? Does the sun not heat parts of the earth on a seasonal basis and raise the external temperature ? Is summer not warmer than winter? Is not the warmth-tude not dependant on the received energy flux from the sun? I am surprised I have to assert this, my daughter teaches this in primary school I could arrange for private coaching for you (And Mary "Classicist, and Quantum Physicist" Fisher) if it is really needed. DG In the winter it is highly likely not to be sunny enough to produce all the hot water one needs. However, the heating that is provided means less other fuels are needed. On a bright winter day a well insulated house which has been warmed up by the boiler can be maintained at a reasonable temperature by a solar panel for the daylight hours. This does involve a heating system designed for this. In the summer you don't want scalding hot water. Any properly designed solar system will have at least one thermostatic mixing valve on the hot water system. Should it be necessary to control the store temperature there are a variety of ways of doing this. The solar panels charge huge batteries which power the inverters. That rather depends on the system. You have described a solar only island system. However, such systems generally have other means of charging the battery as well. They also practice energy efficiency and so tend to avoid electric fires. A grid tied system has no battery. In effect it uses the grid as a big battery. |
#23
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:03:08 +0000 someone who may be Derek Geldard
wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Hrmmph. "Work on the sun"? Correct. If you wish to assert that they work differently you might like to explain your theory. Does the sun not heat parts of the earth on a seasonal basis and raise the external temperature ? Is summer not warmer than winter? Is not the warmth-tude not dependant on the received energy flux from the sun? Many words, but they add little to the discussion. The facts are quite simple. Solar panels work by absorbing heat from sunlight. As they have a small mass they warm up more quickly than the surroundings. This heat can then be transferred elsewhere. The external temperature has nothing to do with this process, which is why they can be used in the antarctic. A solar panel will lose heat to the surroundings. However, this is minimised by various forms of insulation. Thus the assertion that it is too cold in winter for solar panels is incorrect. I am surprised I have to assert this, my daughter teaches this in primary school I could arrange for private coaching for you (And Mary "Classicist, and Quantum Physicist" Fisher) if it is really needed. Excellent, more personal abuse. Do keep it up. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:03:08 +0000 someone who may be Derek Geldard wrote this:- I looked in to it for hot water, but it's of no use in the winter ! It's too cold! What is too cold? The exterior temperature? Solar panels work on the sun, not the external temperature. Hrmmph. "Work on the sun"? Correct. If you wish to assert that they work differently you might like to explain your theory. Does the sun not heat parts of the earth on a seasonal basis and raise the external temperature ? Is summer not warmer than winter? Is not the warmth-tude not dependant on the received energy flux from the sun? Many words, but they add little to the discussion. The facts are quite simple. Solar panels work by absorbing heat from sunlight. As they have a small mass they warm up more quickly than the surroundings. This heat can then be transferred elsewhere. The external temperature has nothing to do with this process, which is why they can be used in the antarctic. Completely wrong, but one expects nothing else. Google 'black body radiation' for the facts. A solar panel will lose heat to the surroundings. However, this is minimised by various forms of insulation. Thus the assertion that it is too cold in winter for solar panels is incorrect. Correct, there is too little direct sunlight. Again an understanding of various things like the relationship between energy transfer and the perceived temperature of the source, and what cloud cover intersperse atmosphere does to it, would be somewhat better than blank erronoeus assertions. I am surprised I have to assert this, my daughter teaches this in primary school I could arrange for private coaching for you (And Mary "Classicist, and Quantum Physicist" Fisher) if it is really needed. Excellent, more personal abuse. Do keep it up. At least its based on reason, not pseudo scientific blather. |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message ... I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz Mike P Mike P Do you mean for electricity or heat? In any event there is good info (and products) he http://c-zero.co.uk/news.php If heat is your interest then you need to swot up on "heatbanks" with a lot of additional stuff he http://www.heatweb.com/ David |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:16:11 -0000, "Vortex3"
head down on the keyboard, banged out this message: ... xx ... xx"Mike P" mike@askme wrote in message ... . .. ... xx ... xx I am trying to amass some information re solar panals for a domestic ... xx dwelling .. pros and cons etc ... any web sites ? .... plz ... xx ... xx Mike P ... xx ... xx Mike P ... xx ... xxDo you mean for electricity or heat? ... xx ... xxIn any event there is good info (and products) he ... xxhttp://c-zero.co.uk/news.php ... xx ... xxIf heat is your interest then you need to swot up on "heatbanks" with a lot ... xxof additional stuff he http://www.heatweb.com/ ... xx ... xxDavid I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water. I am not convinced it is a good idea. He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to downsize. Mike P |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On 2008-01-26 21:40:11 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:
I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water. Oh no...... I am not convinced it is a good idea. ... and you are absolutely right. He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to downsize. Probably the reverse because it's adding some complexity and maintenance uncertainty that some buyers may be unwilling to take. I would suggest you arrange an opinion from an estate agent. I suspect that at best, they will say it's neutral, and are more likely to say that it's a liability. Assuming that he does his downsizing in the next 5-10 years, he's not going to see a saving in energy cost that will go anywhere near to covering the installation. Normally I would say 'caveat emptor', but here I have to say that this is nothing short of exploitation of the elderly, and it disgusts me. The amount gives the rest of the clue. The salesperson knows full well that there is no way in hell, even if the gentleman lives to be the age of a WW1 veteran, that he will ever realise a return on his "investment". Can you get your partner to convince him, if he won't listen to you? |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:40:11 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:- I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water. I am not convinced it is a good idea. I think you are right. Unless there is a particular complexity, such as east/west orientation, it is a lot. Solartwin are advertising installation from £1500 less. He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to downsize. I think this is the wrong reason to install such a system. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:56:47 +0000, David Hansen
head down on the keyboard, banged out this message: ... xxOn Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:40:11 +0000 someone who may be Mike P ... xxmike@askme wrote this:- ... xx ... xxI am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old ... xxand has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water. ... xxI am not convinced it is a good idea. ... xx ... xxI think you are right. Unless there is a particular complexity, such ... xxas east/west orientation, it is a lot. Solartwin are advertising ... xxinstallation from £1500 less. ... xx ... xxHe is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to ... xxdownsize. ... xx ... xxI think this is the wrong reason to install such a system. It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork (deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe. My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can make head or tail of it all. It might be all bonafide, but the no cooling period off is worrying and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles! Mike P |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
In message , Mike P
writes he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use antifreeze, not water. antifreeze in the water that circulates through the outdoor solar collectors is sensible. -- Si |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On 2008-01-27 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P mike@askme said:
It now appears that there was no "cooling off" period on his paperwork (deposit he gave was £1000) and there appears to be no web site for the company ... Solar Image based in Berverley I believe. He paid by cash or cheque? My partner is going on Monday to see the paperwork and see if we can make head or tail of it all. It might be all bonafide, but the no cooling period off is worrying and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles! That bit's almost right... |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:48:48 +0000 someone who may be Mike P
mike@askme wrote this:- and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight Possibly partly correct. Some types of solar collector do not need direct sunlight to produce usable heat. and it will use antifreeze, not water. 40% antifreeze and 60% water is more than adequate for the UK. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:48:48 +0000, Mike P wrote:
but the no cooling period off is worrying and he alledgedly was told it does not need sunlight and it will use antifreeze, not water. The mind boggles! Why? Thermal solar panels don't need direct sunlight to work, you get more energy collected on bright sunny days but you stiill get some on dull overcast ones. Any decent system will circulate a antifreeze mixture so you don't have to drain it down in the winter... -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
In message , Mike P
writes I am asking on behalf of my partners father ..... who is 80 years old and has just put a down payment on a £5000 system for hot water. I am not convinced it is a good idea. He is convinced it will put value on his house when he sells up to downsize. My father was of the same opinion and it took some robust words from me following a thread I started about a year ago here -- geoff |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:45:10 +0000 someone who may be AJH
wrote this:- I'm convinced he never saw any savings simply because he left his gas dhw system configured as before. Changing the settings on other water heating systems is part of the installation process of anybody who knows what they are doing. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:30:59 +0000 someone who may be AJH
wrote this:- Apart from the price I'm sure it was a reasonable installation if run properly but most punters just expect to turn a tap or push a button and get instant results. It is certainly better to control the boiler from the solar controller. However, this means even more work and thus pushes the cost of a non-DIY installation higher. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
"AJH" wrote in message ... On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:57:52 +0000, David Hansen wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:45:10 +0000 someone who may be AJH wrote this:- I'm convinced he never saw any savings simply because he left his gas dhw system configured as before. Changing the settings on other water heating systems is part of the installation process of anybody who knows what they are doing. I know but the installers didn't do it because the basic operation was a hard sell with a grant kickback for the installers. The net effect was it was only while we had the opportunity to talk in hospital in the weeks prior to his death ( whilst we socialised in his later life he distanced himself from his kids and didn't confide in us) that he said he had monitored his gas use and couldn't see the solar contribution. A visit back to the house, which still had two lodgers, so showed the reason was simply that the dhw timer was still topping the tank up at 23:00 after most washing activity was finished, and then in the morning the gas came on at 6:00 at about the time the lodgers were getting ready for work and stayed on till 10:00. Hence by the time the panel was able to provide heat from its non optimal SSE orientation the tank was still full of hot water. By late afternoon the panel was shaded when the evening wash period started. That sounds like a serious lack of insulation. Apart from the price I'm sure it was a reasonable installation if run properly but most punters just expect to turn a tap or push a button and get instant results. Yes. But what DOES give instant (economic) results? |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
Mary Fisher wrote:
"AJH" wrote in message ... On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:57:52 +0000, David Hansen wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:45:10 +0000 someone who may be AJH wrote this:- I'm convinced he never saw any savings simply because he left his gas dhw system configured as before. Changing the settings on other water heating systems is part of the installation process of anybody who knows what they are doing. I know but the installers didn't do it because the basic operation was a hard sell with a grant kickback for the installers. The net effect was it was only while we had the opportunity to talk in hospital in the weeks prior to his death ( whilst we socialised in his later life he distanced himself from his kids and didn't confide in us) that he said he had monitored his gas use and couldn't see the solar contribution. A visit back to the house, which still had two lodgers, so showed the reason was simply that the dhw timer was still topping the tank up at 23:00 after most washing activity was finished, and then in the morning the gas came on at 6:00 at about the time the lodgers were getting ready for work and stayed on till 10:00. Hence by the time the panel was able to provide heat from its non optimal SSE orientation the tank was still full of hot water. By late afternoon the panel was shaded when the evening wash period started. That sounds like a serious lack of insulation. Apart from the price I'm sure it was a reasonable installation if run properly but most punters just expect to turn a tap or push a button and get instant results. Yes. But what DOES give instant (economic) results? Knitting a jumper. Payback time probably under a winter. |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:30:58 +0000 someone who may be AJH
wrote this:- Insulation doesn't feature in the discussion about how the gas and solar inputs clash. In fact it was a modern insulated tank and I doubt it lost more than 1kWhr of heat in the 24 hour period. Did it feel at all warm to the touch? If it did then it didn't have enough insulation. The point was the system stayed permanently satisfied by the gas system because of the heating periods, so the panel was never able to contribute. An installation problem. What I forgot to mention was that whilst the solar coil was at the bottom of the tank the gas heated coil was almost directly above it. The problem would have been mitigated had the gas coil been nearer the top of the tank. A design problem. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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Solar Panal info req for domestic use
"AJH" wrote in message ... On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:09:44 -0000, "Mary Fisher" wrote: That sounds like a serious lack of insulation. Insulation doesn't feature in the discussion about how the gas and solar inputs clash. In fact it was a modern insulated tank and I doubt it lost more than 1kWhr of heat in the 24 hour period. The point was the system stayed permanently satisfied by the gas system because of the heating periods, so the panel was never able to contribute. I suspect that most people who get a solar dhw system change the rest of their lifestyle to suit. That would include adjusting 'heating periods', surely. |
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