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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
Hi,
I have some questions regarding solar heating / power / wind power and UK grants. I'm interested in experiences rather than straight facts as many of these are on the internet: (1) We're considering ploughing some money into some a renewable power source for our home. I knew of government grants, but I also recall reading recently that the grants were either being cancelled or cut back substantially. Has anyone taken advantage of such a grant recently? Does the installation company sort it all out or does the consumer have to claim it back themselves? (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? (3) Installation companies are many, I know that BP have a solar business and will more than likely have a list of contractors on their books. I would feel a little safer dealing with a large organisation but I don't expect they will be as cheap as others. Again if anyone has any experience I would appreciate this. Thanks, Mark. --- www.treboona.co.uk |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
wrote:
(2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? You might want to look at things like air or ground source heat pumps. These do have a reasonable chance of giving you a return on your investment. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article ,
John Rumm writes: wrote: (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? You might want to look at things like air or ground source heat pumps. These do have a reasonable chance of giving you a return on your investment. If the retailer can be bothered with the extra paperwork, heat pump technology heating for domestic use should only attract 5% VAT. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:03:18 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
You might want to look at things like air or ground source heat pumps. These do have a reasonable chance of giving you a return on your investment. Maybe depends how much alteration has to be done to the heating system. The heat they produce is "low grade" suitable for underfloor heating but not for, AIUI, heating domestic hot water or conventional, radiator based space heating. The Natural Philosopher is an accountant; the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. Whilst that is a factor it is not the overiding one for many. Grants can help the costs but generally you are then tied to using "approved" installers and systems. You don't get much, if any, flexabilty to design a system to suit your requirements, property or have a combination of energy sources. Personally I don't like being told which contractors I can use, particulary when I'm not in control of the project. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:18:20 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
wrote this:- I have some questions regarding solar heating / power / wind power and UK grants. I'm interested in experiences rather than straight facts as many of these are on the internet: One of the facts that can be found on Internet is that there are no UK grants for such things in the domestic sphere. If you tell us which country/province/principality you live in then we may be able to help you more. (1) We're considering ploughing some money into some a renewable power source for our home. Before doing that make sure you have done as much as reasonable to reduce energy losses. Lagging hot water pipes, loft and wall insulation, energy saving lamps, no fancy lighting schemes designed to make your meter spin round like a catherine wheel and so on. I knew of government grants, but I also recall reading recently that the grants were either being cancelled or cut back substantially. The ones in England were still in a mess the last time I checked, which was some months ago. The approach is generally that the householder applies for the grant, perhaps with the help of a supplier. However, the precise approach depends on the country/province/principality someone lives in and the precise grant. Note that the grants discriminate against DIY. They are only available for "professionally" installed systems. There is also a discriminatory regime on VAT, again discriminating against DIY. If you have the skills and time it is likely to be cheaper to DIY, despite the discrimination. www.navitron.org.uk is a good source of parts for DIY. (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? In terms of energy they are likely to be solar thermal, wind and solar electric in your list. However, it does depend on your site. Do a bit of research and you may find a local organisation which offers help to wade through the options http://www.devondare.org/ is an example. http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/campa...ropower/guide/ is a guide to some of the options. You may be able to rule some of them out quickly, but others may be worth investigating. What installation problems there are depends on your particular house. For example fitting solar thermal to a house which has a combination boiler which cannot accept warm water is rather different to fitting a Solartwin panel http://www.solartwin.com/ to a well insulated existing hot water cylinder. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On 08 Jan 2008 08:57:25 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
If the retailer can be bothered with the extra paperwork, heat pump technology heating for domestic use should only attract 5% VAT. And presumably the power that the heat pump uses as well? -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:18:20 -0800 (PST),
wrote: (1) We're considering ploughing some money into some a renewable power source for our home. I knew of government grants, but I also recall reading recently that the grants were either being cancelled or cut back substantially. Has anyone taken advantage of such a grant recently? Does the installation company sort it all out or does the consumer have to claim it back themselves? Grant availability is inconsistent but some companies are particularly adept at managing the grant process. It is fairly straightforward and they seem to be able to get approval quickly. The only problem is that the companies approved under the grant schemes have almost universally inflated their prices by at least the value of the grant so the end user gets no benefit from them. (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? For most of the UK roof mounted wind turbines are useless other than as a green fashion statement, There is an ongoing project in Warwickshire (The Warwickshire Wind Energy Project) assessing their effectiveness and although little factual information is being released so far the monetary saving has been in the order of a few pence a day. Typically in an urban environment you will generate electricity worth about £4 in one year. The problem is the lack of wind in urban environments coupled with the inescapable cube law on energy produced against wind speed. A figure often bandied about is that the "average" windspeed in the UK is 5.6m/s . Assuming that produced 100W output from a generator if the wind speed dropped to 3m/s (higher than that being measured on houses in the Warwickshire trial) the electricity generated falls to about 12W. Hot water systems are simple but generally have inflated installation prices, they only make economic sense if done as a DIY project. I had one for some years and it was an interesting experiment but not much more. The DTI carried out a 12 month trial of various panels and found that a single solar panel of any type if optimally sited would collect about 1MWh of energy in one year, equivalent to a saving of about £40 if you use gas to heat your water. It would cost between £2,000 and £8,000 to install commercially. Vacuum tube collectors are more efficient than flat panel but tend to be made into smaller panels so generally there isn't much difference between panels. There is very little difference between manufacturers. Navitron are worth looking at for DIY bits as their prices for the vacuum tubes are quite good. Solar PV is useful in remote sites where there is no mains electricity. Its cost is prohibitively high except in these locations or to power individual low consumption devices. The roughly 1sqm BP panel I have as an experimental setup originally cost nearly £1,000 and produces about 60W in bright sunlight but today for example, with a very dull overcast, is producing about 3W. It makes no economic sense if grid electricity is available as the payback period is much longer than the panel life. A problem with solar energy in the UK is that there isn't much sun when its needed and most comes at the time of least energy usage. (3) Installation companies are many, I know that BP have a solar business and will more than likely have a list of contractors on their books. I would feel a little safer dealing with a large organisation but I don't expect they will be as cheap as others. The great majority of "alternative" energy companies are out and out fraudsters. Almost universally they make vastly inflated claims for the capability of their products. The skill levels generally in this sector are poor and although there are some enthusiasts who are also competent it is difficult to find them. In financial terms none of the three common technologies make sense. Air source heat pumps (inverter air conditioners) can. Ground source heat pumps are beginning to make sense especially if you have a lot of land and are planning major works anyway but don't work too well unless you have underfloor heating. They are also no better than a good condensing boiler in terms of heating costs or carbon emissions. There is some data on ground source heat pumps from the Barratt Chorley experiment (which used a 30M borehole rather than a widespread network of pipes so is better suited to urban environments) which indicates a payback period of about 15 years. http://www.barratt-investor-relation...t.aspx?id=1318 What is universal about all the ecotechnologies is that the potential energy generation or saving is invariably grossly overstated and this is becoming clearer now actual measurements are beginning to be made public. There is no doubt that if you spent the money you were contemplating spending on alternative energy on insulation and better and more controlled ventilation and heating you would get better value for money. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:03:18 +0000, John Rumm wrote: You might want to look at things like air or ground source heat pumps. These do have a reasonable chance of giving you a return on your investment. Maybe depends how much alteration has to be done to the heating system. The heat they produce is "low grade" suitable for underfloor heating but not for, AIUI, heating domestic hot water or conventional, radiator based space heating. The Natural Philosopher is an accountant; the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. Whilst that is a factor it is not the overiding one for many. I resent that. I am an engineer,who has learnt the hard way that the recipe for good engineering is to do the difficult sums. The ones with pound signs in them. The fact that these technolofies do NOT pay for themselves, in an era when the cost of fuel tends to dominate the price of anything manufactured, shows that if they are not cost effective, they likley are not fuel efficient either. Grants can help the costs but generally you are then tied to using "approved" installers and systems. You don't get much, if any, flexabilty to design a system to suit your requirements, property or have a combination of energy sources. Personally I don't like being told which contractors I can use, particulary when I'm not in control of the project. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:18:20 -0800 (PST) someone who may be wrote this:- I have some questions regarding solar heating / power / wind power and UK grants. I'm interested in experiences rather than straight facts as many of these are on the internet: One of the facts that can be found on Internet is that there are no UK grants for such things in the domestic sphere. If you tell us which country/province/principality you live in then we may be able to help you more. (1) We're considering ploughing some money into some a renewable power source for our home. Before doing that make sure you have done as much as reasonable to reduce energy losses. Lagging hot water pipes, loft and wall insulation, energy saving lamps, no fancy lighting schemes designed to make your meter spin round like a catherine wheel and so on. I knew of government grants, but I also recall reading recently that the grants were either being cancelled or cut back substantially. The ones in England were still in a mess the last time I checked, which was some months ago. The approach is generally that the householder applies for the grant, perhaps with the help of a supplier. However, the precise approach depends on the country/province/principality someone lives in and the precise grant. Note that the grants discriminate against DIY. They are only available for "professionally" installed systems. There is also a discriminatory regime on VAT, again discriminating against DIY. If you have the skills and time it is likely to be cheaper to DIY, despite the discrimination. www.navitron.org.uk is a good source of parts for DIY. (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? In terms of energy they are likely to be solar thermal, wind and solar electric in your list. However, it does depend on your site. You will do better to make a huge double glazed south facing set of windows, in terms of overall cost benefit, than anything else. Insulation and draughtproofing aside. Do a bit of research and you may find a local organisation which offers help to wade through the options http://www.devondare.org/ is an example. http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/campa...ropower/guide/ is a guide to some of the options. You may be able to rule some of them out quickly, but others may be worth investigating. What installation problems there are depends on your particular house. For example fitting solar thermal to a house which has a combination boiler which cannot accept warm water is rather different to fitting a Solartwin panel http://www.solartwin.com/ to a well insulated existing hot water cylinder. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article , says...
All I can say is that IMHO the consensus among those here that can count beyond ten without taking their socks off, is that none of them will ever realistically pay for themselves in this country. Even WITH a grant. While that's almost certainly true of commecially available systems, if you can make your own solar HW system with scrounged bits you could probably save a bit of money - but it's not going to be a lot. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article , says...
You will do better to make a huge double glazed south facing set of windows, in terms of overall cost benefit, than anything else. Passive solar gain can make quite a difference in the autumn and spring. Since finishing the conservatory we've noticed we can do without the heating until it's quite a bit colder outside (on sunny days) than we could before. Opening the door allows the conservatory to heat the whole house during the day and, with a sunlit concrete floor, for a couple of hours after dark, too. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On 8 Jan, 12:13, Peter Parry wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:18:20 -0800 (PST), wrote: (1) We're considering ploughing some money into some a renewable power source for our home. I knew of government grants, but I also recall reading recently that the grants were either being cancelled or cut back substantially. Has anyone taken advantage of such a grant recently? Does the installation company sort it all out or does the consumer have to claim it back themselves? Grant availability is inconsistent but some companies are particularly adept at managing the grant process. It is fairly straightforward and they seem to be able to get approval quickly. The only problem is that the companies approved under the grant schemes have almost universally inflated their prices by at least the value of the grant so the end user gets no benefit from them. (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? For most of the UK roof mounted wind turbines are useless other than as a green fashion statement, There is an ongoing project in Warwickshire (The Warwickshire Wind Energy Project) assessing their effectiveness and although little factual information is being released so far the monetary saving has been in the order of a few pence a day. Typically in an urban environment you will generate electricity worth about £4 in one year. The problem is the lack of wind in urban environments coupled with the inescapable cube law on energy produced against wind speed. A figure often bandied about is that the "average" windspeed in the UK is 5.6m/s . Assuming that produced 100W output from a generator if the wind speed dropped to 3m/s (higher than that being measured on houses in the Warwickshire trial) the electricity generated falls to about 12W. Hot water systems are simple but generally have inflated installation prices, they only make economic sense if done as a DIY project. I had one for some years and it was an interesting experiment but not much more. The DTI carried out a 12 month trial of various panels and found that a single solar panel of any type if optimally sited would collect about 1MWh of energy in one year, equivalent to a saving of about £40 if you use gas to heat your water. It would cost between £2,000 and £8,000 to install commercially. Vacuum tube collectors are more efficient than flat panel but tend to be made into smaller panels so generally there isn't much difference between panels. There is very little difference between manufacturers. Navitron are worth looking at for DIY bits as their prices for the vacuum tubes are quite good. Solar PV is useful in remote sites where there is no mains electricity. Its cost is prohibitively high except in these locations or to power individual low consumption devices. The roughly 1sqm BP panel I have as an experimental setup originally cost nearly £1,000 and produces about 60W in bright sunlight but today for example, with a very dull overcast, is producing about 3W. It makes no economic sense if grid electricity is available as the payback period is much longer than the panel life. A problem with solar energy in the UK is that there isn't much sun when its needed and most comes at the time of least energy usage. (3) Installation companies are many, I know that BP have a solar business and will more than likely have a list of contractors on their books. I would feel a little safer dealing with a large organisation but I don't expect they will be as cheap as others. The great majority of "alternative" energy companies are out and out fraudsters. Almost universally they make vastly inflated claims for the capability of their products. The skill levels generally in this sector are poor and although there are some enthusiasts who are also competent it is difficult to find them. In financial terms none of the three common technologies make sense. Air source heat pumps (inverter air conditioners) can. Ground source heat pumps are beginning to make sense especially if you have a lot of land and are planning major works anyway but don't work too well unless you have underfloor heating. They are also no better than a good condensing boiler in terms of heating costs or carbon emissions. There is some data on ground source heat pumps from the Barratt Chorley experiment (which used a 30M borehole rather than a widespread network of pipes so is better suited to urban environments) which indicates a payback period of about 15 years.http://www.barratt-investor-relation...ses/Content.as... What is universal about all the ecotechnologies is that the potential energy generation or saving is invariably grossly overstated and this is becoming clearer now actual measurements are beginning to be made public. There is no doubt that if you spent the money you were contemplating spending on alternative energy on insulation and better and more controlled ventilation and heating you would get better value for money. I'm still to be totally convinced by heatpumps. COPs of 4 and even 5 are advertised by manufacturers, yet the only real world figures I've been able to find are 2 or a bit better - and that's ground source with UFH and plenty of insulation. I know that with green technologies in the home it's compulsory to exaggerate about their performance, but I simply couldn't buy a heat pump from someone who I know is lying to me. Also, when it comes to payback, the additional cost of UFH etc. is not factored in. I know some manufacturers say you can use radiators, but they already lied about the COP, so I don't believe them. What sort of COP can air source heat pumps really achieve on average throughout a heating season, with radiators, and supplying hot water? T. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article ,
Skipweasel writes: In article , says... You will do better to make a huge double glazed south facing set of windows, in terms of overall cost benefit, than anything else. Passive solar gain can make quite a difference in the autumn and spring. Since finishing the conservatory we've noticed we can do without the heating until it's quite a bit colder outside (on sunny days) than we could before. Opening the door allows the conservatory to heat the whole house during the day and, with a sunlit concrete floor, for a couple of hours after dark, too. More attention to both desirable and undesirable solar gain in house design would probably bear more fruit than many of the pointless energy saving schemes which currently have the public attention. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On 8 Jan, 09:51, Huge wrote:
On 2008-01-08, John Rumm wrote: wrote: (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? You might want to look at things like air or ground source heat pumps. These do have a reasonable chance of giving you a return on your investment. But before you do *any* of this; insulation, insulation, insulation. Treble glaze. Line the walls. 1000mm (I made this figure up) of insulation in the loft. Heat recovery ventilation. Insulate the hot water pipes. -- * * * * * "Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain * * * * * * * * *and presumptuous desire for a second one." * * * * * * * *[email me at huge {at} huge (dot) org dot uk] i SECOND HUGE on this the best return is on insulation and design I have - as a matter of interest - also installed a heat pump and did most of it myself but got the contractor to fill up with glycol and to switch it on and on that basis can apply via him for a grant Chris |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:51:34 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote: Hi, I have some questions regarding solar heating / power / wind power and UK grants. I'm interested in experiences rather than straight facts as many of these are on the internet: (1) We're considering ploughing some money into some a renewable power source for our home. I knew of government grants, but I also recall reading recently that the grants were either being cancelled or cut back substantially. Has anyone taken advantage of such a grant recently? Does the installation company sort it all out or does the consumer have to claim it back themselves? (2) Of the various options available (I can think of at least three) has anyone any experience across each type? Are some more effective than others in terms of energy return for a UK home? Are some more problematic regards installation? All I can say is that IMHO the consensus among those here that can count beyond ten without taking their socks off, is that none of them will ever realistically pay for themselves in this country. Even WITH a grant. (3) Installation companies are many, I know that BP have a solar business and will more than likely have a list of contractors on their books. I would feel a little safer dealing with a large organisation but I don't expect they will be as cheap as others. Again if anyone has any experience I would appreciate this. Since I can see no significant cost savings in using any technology based on (domestic) wind or solar in this country, I haven't even bothered to see who is painting themselves green by selling it. It really doesn't matter who you buy it from. Or if it works or not. Its money down the drain. Just a sop to your conscience. And a show off to the neighbours. It might /just/ be possible to make a cost effective solar assisted HW system if /all/ the following are true. 1) You need to replace the HW cylinder. 2) You have the time and skills necessary to make and install solar collectors. 3) You have the time and skills needed to make the control system. 4) You have access to the scrap raw materials needed to make system. e.g. discarded CH pump, discarded CH radiators. What is clear is that at current prices there is no way that a system can be built using either manufactured parts or professional installation let alone both. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:16:24 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , Skipweasel writes: In article , says... You will do better to make a huge double glazed south facing set of windows, in terms of overall cost benefit, than anything else. Passive solar gain can make quite a difference in the autumn and spring. Since finishing the conservatory we've noticed we can do without the heating until it's quite a bit colder outside (on sunny days) than we could before. Opening the door allows the conservatory to heat the whole house during the day and, with a sunlit concrete floor, for a couple of hours after dark, too. More attention to both desirable and undesirable solar gain in house design would probably bear more fruit than many of the pointless energy saving schemes which currently have the public attention. So true. Along with appropriate and thoughtfully set heating (and cooling) controls. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:59 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett
wrote this:- It might /just/ be possible to make a cost effective solar assisted HW system if /all/ the following are true. 1) You need to replace the HW cylinder. 2) You have the time and skills necessary to make and install solar collectors. 3) You have the time and skills needed to make the control system. 4) You have access to the scrap raw materials needed to make system. e.g. discarded CH pump, discarded CH radiators. If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a £40 saving in gas per year at face value, assume no fuel price increases and ignore the (low) electricity cost then a simplistic simple payback period calculation for the Navitron Budget Solar Kit http://www.navitron.org.uk/pricelist.htm is about 22 years (£800 plus £100 delivery, if one doesn't collect it). -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:59 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett wrote this:- It might /just/ be possible to make a cost effective solar assisted HW system if /all/ the following are true. 1) You need to replace the HW cylinder. 2) You have the time and skills necessary to make and install solar collectors. 3) You have the time and skills needed to make the control system. 4) You have access to the scrap raw materials needed to make system. e.g. discarded CH pump, discarded CH radiators. If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a �40 saving in gas per year at face value, assume no fuel price increases and ignore the (low) electricity cost then a simplistic simple payback period calculation for the Navitron Budget Solar Kit http://www.navitron.org.uk/pricelist.htm is about 22 years (�800 plus �100 delivery, if one doesn't collect it). And assuming you didn't have to borrow the money, in which case its a net loser forever. Better idea. Put the money on a bank paying 4% and have it earn you 236% return over 22 years. The ROI of your investment is 2.72% p.a.. I think it would be hard to find WORSE payback for cash anywhere in the financial market.. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:50:39 +0000, David Hansen
wrote: If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a £40 saving in gas per year at face value, Oh dear, there we go again with the propaganda. The only thing I'm anti is the dishonesty of the greenwashers. A single solar panel collects about 1MWh of energy per year if ideally placed - that's real data collected for the DTI. The gas to produce a similar amount of energy cost somewhat less than £40 at current prices. Why do you feel you can't take such an established fact at face value? Do you have more credible data? |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:50:39 +0000, David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:59 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett wrote this:- It might /just/ be possible to make a cost effective solar assisted HW system if /all/ the following are true. 1) You need to replace the HW cylinder. 2) You have the time and skills necessary to make and install solar collectors. 3) You have the time and skills needed to make the control system. 4) You have access to the scrap raw materials needed to make system. e.g. discarded CH pump, discarded CH radiators. If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a £40 saving in gas per year at face value, assume no fuel price increases and ignore the (low) electricity cost then a simplistic simple payback period calculation for the Navitron Budget Solar Kit http://www.navitron.org.uk/pricelist.htm is about 22 years (£800 plus £100 delivery, if one doesn't collect it). That's exactly the case I was making. You've filled in the numbers. 22 years. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes David Hansen wrote: On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:22:59 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett wrote this:- It might /just/ be possible to make a cost effective solar assisted HW system if /all/ the following are true. 1) You need to replace the HW cylinder. 2) You have the time and skills necessary to make and install solar collectors. 3) You have the time and skills needed to make the control system. 4) You have access to the scrap raw materials needed to make system. e.g. discarded CH pump, discarded CH radiators. If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a 0 price increases and ignore the (low) electricity cost then a simplistic simple payback period calculation for the Navitron Budget Solar Kit http://www.navitron.org.uk/pricelist.htm is about 22 years (0 And assuming you didn't have to borrow the money, in which case its a net loser forever. Better idea. Put the money on a bank paying 4% and have it earn you 236% return over 22 years. 4% ? a bit NFN -- geoff |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Jan 8, 10:28*pm, Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:50:39 +0000, David Hansen wrote: If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a £40 saving in gas per year at face value, Oh dear, there we go again with the propaganda. *The only thing I'm anti is the dishonesty of the greenwashers. * A single solar panel collects about 1MWh of energy per year if ideally placed - that's real data collected for the DTI. *The gas to produce a similar amount of energy cost somewhat less than £40 at current prices. Why do you feel you can't take such an established fact at face value? Do you have more credible data? Hello everyone, I'm pulling the plug on any of our ambitions wrt solar/wind schemes. Natural Philosopher et al, thanks for the financials - that is disappointing, not your replies that is - just the prospect that (at present) this technology does not pay for the consumer, and we haven't (at present!) got money for just showing off. BTW I read an article about 'solar paint' on a website. I was half suspecting a wind-up. Perhaps that's the sort of advance (if it's for real) that will one day make it pay. John Rumm et al, I've seen those heat pump arrangements, in every example the garden they are deployed in looks sizeable - which ours is not (maybe 10m square) - so I'm doubtful it is going to work for us. David Hansen / Huge et al, we are in the UK, we are in a modern house and it has all the quick-wins you mention (even the new three pronged light-bulb housings which are a real pain as hardly anyone sells the bulbs!). We are atop a small hill and it can get quite windy, so I half suspected a small wind generator might be semi-viable (until reading Peter Parry's post! - thanks Peter). My only additional worry with this was if the thing goes a wrong, the prop spins off and hits somebody - it's quite a densely populated area where we live. BTW Ed / Peter I'm no DIY buff, I half zapped myself with some mains leads once and it put me off for good. As fossil fuels depleat and the cost of energy increases, perhaps that is the time when these technologies will come into their own. For now we'll continue with the basics. Regards, Mark. --- www.treboona.co.uk |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
wrote:
I'm still to be totally convinced by heatpumps. COPs of 4 and even 5 are advertised by manufacturers, yet the only real world figures I've been able to find are 2 or a bit better - and that's ground source with UFH and plenty of insulation. I know that with green technologies in the home it's compulsory to exaggerate about their performance, but I simply couldn't buy a heat pump from someone who I know is lying to me. Also, when it comes to payback, the additional cost of UFH etc. is not factored in. I know some manufacturers say you can use radiators, but they already lied about the COP, so I don't believe them. A heat pump can be quite a nice simple solution when the only easily installable alternative source of heat is electric only, and you also want air conditioning in the summer. For example, one unit to heat and cool a outbuilding without needing to plumb it into your domestic heating or gas supply. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
wrote:
On Jan 8, 10:28�pm, Peter Parry wrote: On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:50:39 +0000, David Hansen wrote: If, for the sake of argument, one takes the claims of the antis of only a �40 saving in gas per year at face value, Oh dear, there we go again with the propaganda. �The only thing I'm anti is the dishonesty of the greenwashers. � A single solar panel collects about 1MWh of energy per year if ideally placed - that's real data collected for the DTI. �The gas to produce a similar amount of energy cost somewhat less than �40 at current prices. Why do you feel you can't take such an established fact at face value? Do you have more credible data? Hello everyone, I'm pulling the plug on any of our ambitions wrt solar/wind schemes. Natural Philosopher et al, thanks for the financials - that is disappointing, not your replies that is - just the prospect that (at present) this technology does not pay for the consumer, and we haven't (at present!) got money for just showing off. BTW I read an article about 'solar paint' on a website. I was half suspecting a wind-up. Perhaps that's the sort of advance (if it's for real) that will one day make it pay. John Rumm et al, I've seen those heat pump arrangements, in every example the garden they are deployed in looks sizeable - which ours is not (maybe 10m square) - so I'm doubtful it is going to work for us. David Hansen / Huge et al, we are in the UK, we are in a modern house and it has all the quick-wins you mention (even the new three pronged light-bulb housings which are a real pain as hardly anyone sells the bulbs!). We are atop a small hill and it can get quite windy, so I half suspected a small wind generator might be semi-viable (until reading Peter Parry's post! - thanks Peter). My only additional worry with this was if the thing goes a wrong, the prop spins off and hits somebody - it's quite a densely populated area where we live. BTW Ed / Peter I'm no DIY buff, I half zapped myself with some mains leads once and it put me off for good. As fossil fuels depleat and the cost of energy increases, perhaps that is the time when these technologies will come into their own. For now we'll continue with the basics. Spend your money on thermal underwear and turn the stat down two degrees. Its the most cost effective thing to do. And I must be off to divorce my wife, having woken up with a splitting headache to once again find that she has opened the bedroom window and the hot air heaters are flapping full bore.. Cost benefit analysis shows its cheaper to be single ;-) Regards, Mark. --- www.treboona.co.uk |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
John Rumm wrote:
wrote: I'm still to be totally convinced by heatpumps. COPs of 4 and even 5 are advertised by manufacturers, yet the only real world figures I've been able to find are 2 or a bit better - and that's ground source with UFH and plenty of insulation. I know that with green technologies in the home it's compulsory to exaggerate about their performance, but I simply couldn't buy a heat pump from someone who I know is lying to me. Also, when it comes to payback, the additional cost of UFH etc. is not factored in. I know some manufacturers say you can use radiators, but they already lied about the COP, so I don't believe them. A heat pump can be quite a nice simple solution when the only easily installable alternative source of heat is electric only, and you also want air conditioning in the summer. For example, one unit to heat and cool a outbuilding without needing to plumb it into your domestic heating or gas supply. I suspect once there are enough nuclear power stations. it will be the 'modern' way to go.. Just think. No more condensing boilers, no more oil tanks, no more flues and fumes and flameouts, no bloody great lump of space taken up with a clanky 18th century device. No more CORGI. No more annual service.. Just a nice coil under the front or back yard. And an electric motor |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes Spend your money on thermal underwear and turn the stat down two degrees. Its the most cost effective thing to do. And I must be off to divorce my wife, having woken up with a splitting headache to once again find that she has opened the bedroom window and the hot air heaters are flapping full bore.. I find it's when SWMBO *closes* the bedroom window that I wake up with a splitting headache that lasts all day. Fresh air is wonderful!!! Cost benefit analysis shows its cheaper to be single ;-) Yup, research confirms that men live longer if married so being single will involve less expenditure due to your earlier demise. -- Si |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article , says...
And I must be off to divorce my wife, having woken up with a splitting headache to once again find that she has opened the bedroom window and the hot air heaters are flapping full bore.. Luckily mine doesn't object to having the bedroom radiators off and the window open except on /very/ windy nights. She just has a thicker duvet than me. Does everyone else have their heating off over night? I used to think this was fairly normal, but looking out over the rooftops on a not particularly cold night recently I noticed that many houses still had plumes from their chimneys. Now, if they were houses with grannies in, I could probably understand it, but several of them I know have families with a couple of fit adults and a few school age kids. I wouldn't like their gas bills. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article , says...
Just a nice coil under the front or back yard. And an electric motor And leaks. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:37:40 UTC, Skipweasel wrote:
Does everyone else have their heating off over night? I used to think this was fairly normal, but looking out over the rooftops on a not particularly cold night recently I noticed that many houses still had plumes from their chimneys. Now, if they were houses with grannies in, I could probably understand it, but several of them I know have families with a couple of fit adults and a few school age kids. Ours goes off every night about an hour before we go to bed. Comes on half an hour before we get up, then off again once the edge has been taken off the cold and we are off to work a bit later. I wouldn't like their gas bills. Gas bills are OK, especially since the new condensing boiler, all the sludge cleared out, the pump-over finally fixed, and TRVs on some radiators. We have to save there...electricity bill is still horrendous what with all the computers, some 24/7...! -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:37:40 GMT, Skipweasel wrote:
Does everyone else have their heating off over night? Yes, but principally because of the noise from expanding pipes and rads wakes us up... Even if it was on the programmable stat would set quite low (15C in the living room say) for the night period. As for people leaving the heating on, I think you are over estimating the abilty of many to understand how heating systems work. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On 9 Jan 2008 09:55:32 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
We have to save there...electricity bill is still horrendous what with all the computers, some 24/7...! Aye, I'm thinking of replacing the ones here with mini ATX based things. The 750VA UPS is normally running at a good 80% capacity for 18hrs/day. Call that 600W * 18 = 10.8 units FECK ME! Naw that can't be right, can it? Where did I put my plug in power meter... -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:54:21 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On 9 Jan 2008 09:55:32 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: We have to save there...electricity bill is still horrendous what with all the computers, some 24/7...! Aye, I'm thinking of replacing the ones here with mini ATX based things. Did you mean mini ITX? I'm using two of those in always-on servers, and one in the small communal PC in the living room. I'll be converting the Asterisk box (to-be) to one soon; currently it's running voicemail for the dedicated PBX. The 750VA UPS is normally running at a good 80% capacity for 18hrs/day. Call that 600W * 18 = 10.8 units FECK ME! Naw that can't be right, can it? Haven't added it up on all the UPSes, but the other always-on machines are mostly 300MHz PIIs (the most economical PII CPU). One of the mini-ITX machines runs off a CF card and has no hard disk. Another, at 30 watts, replaced a 150 watt machine on 24/7. Where did I put my plug in power meter... Never without mine right now... -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:12:13 +0000 The Natural Philosopher wrote :
I suspect once there are enough nuclear power stations. it will be the 'modern' way to go.. Just think. No more condensing boilers, no more oil tanks, no more flues and fumes and flameouts, no bloody great lump of space taken up with a clanky 18th century device. No more CORGI. No more annual service.. Just a nice coil under the front or back yard. And an electric motor On our website we quote Kensa Heat Pumps: "Heat pumps produce some noise - similar to that of an oil fired boiler. Unlike a boiler, they also produce vibration. For this reason, heat pumps should always be installed away from occupied spaces. The best place is in a utility room, or at the back of a garage. Be aware that noise travels upwards, so noise from a heat pump in a utility room can travel upwards to a bedroom. Bear in mind that heat pumps usually run at night, on off-peak electricity". http://www.kensaengineering.com/html/faq.php So not quite as invisible as you suggest. Otherwise the hopeful reliability and freedom from servicing does look attractive, especially on homes built to current standards where servicing of a gas or oil system will cost a significant amount as compared to the fuel bills. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
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