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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:28:39 +0000 Peter Parry wrote :
Oh dear, there we go again with the propaganda. The only thing I'm anti is the dishonesty of the greenwashers. A single solar panel collects about 1MWh of energy per year if ideally placed - that's real data collected for the DTI. The gas to produce a similar amount of energy cost somewhat less than £40 at current prices. But the cost of additional panels does not double the installation cost. There probably is an economic rationale for installing solar panels where you have a family house with 4+ occupants and where mains gas is not available. My place (single occupancy, condensing combi) has a roof ideally suited to a solar panel. According to SAP2005 and doubling the notional fuel cost of 1.73p/kWh, a 2m2 panel would save me about £20p.a. Needless to say, it's not on the to-do list. But nearly every week I talk to people who have come up against the 'Merton Rule' which requires new developments of any size to show that 10% of energy comes from renewables - so solar panels are the usual way round, although on flats it makes little sense to do this. This requirement is imposed by planner, not Building Regs. Spending the money on (say) triple glazing would not be acceptable. And this is not NuLab at work: councils of all persuasions have fallen over themselves to copy Merton. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
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On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:37:40 GMT Skipweasel wrote :
Does everyone else have their heating off over night? I used to think this was fairly normal, but looking out over the rooftops on a not particularly cold night recently I noticed that many houses still had plumes from their chimneys. Now, if they were houses with grannies in, I could probably understand it, but several of them I know have families with a couple of fit adults and a few school age kids. I confess to having mine at 17 overnight, which actually means that it only comes on on the coldest nights being a reasonably insulated already-warm room. But I've got split-zone heating so the living room end of the place is unheated. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
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In article , rde42
@spamcop.net says... We have to save there...electricity bill is still horrendous what with all the computers, some 24/7...! I've fitted some switches so I can turn everything off, even those things that would be on standby. I suspect Virgin Media don't like it 'cos they can't run updates at night, but stuff'em, I'm not leaving the set top box and modem on all the time, they draw too much. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:17:20 UTC, Skipweasel wrote:
In article , rde42 @spamcop.net says... We have to save there...electricity bill is still horrendous what with all the computers, some 24/7...! I've fitted some switches so I can turn everything off, even those things that would be on standby. I don't leave anything on standby. But the firewall, mail server, PBX etc. have to stay on. -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On 9 Jan 2008 11:37:56 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
Aye, I'm thinking of replacing the ones here with mini ATX based things. Did you mean mini ITX? Yes, the current machines that are perfectly useable are 1GHz Athlons. It's a a while since I looked at ITX based stuff so I expect I can get something at double the speed and 1/4 the power requirement. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Just think. No more condensing boilers, no more oil tanks, no more flues and fumes and flameouts, no bloody great lump of space taken up with a clanky 18th century device. No more CORGI. No more annual service.. Fine, apart from the point that the air con industry seems to be even more of a closed shop than CORGI... and don't forget the government CFC police. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:52:12 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On 9 Jan 2008 11:37:56 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: Aye, I'm thinking of replacing the ones here with mini ATX based things. Did you mean mini ITX? Yes, the current machines that are perfectly useable are 1GHz Athlons. It's a a while since I looked at ITX based stuff so I expect I can get something at double the speed and 1/4 the power requirement. I have: The 800MHz fanless version of the Eden, for the desktop The 800MHz fanless Luke CoreFusion, for the firewall The 1GHz fanned Luke CoreFusion, for the house server These are all VIA chips on VIA boards, and all work fine. The first is an XP machine, the other two are FreeBSD. -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
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On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:56:03 +0000, Si wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher writes Cost benefit analysis shows its cheaper to be single ;-) Yup, research confirms that men live longer if married so being single will involve less expenditure due to your earlier demise. You sure it doesn't just *seem* longer? |
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On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:32:39 +0000, Skipweasel wrote:
I suspect the only way this will change is if house builders start equipping whole estates at the time of building. The extra cost then would be considerably less than retrofit systems, with the added advantage that several hundred houses with identical systems will mean the local plumbers have some chance to learn what's going on. What's more the developer's contractor is not going to be paying silly "greenwash" prices for the kit. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
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In message , PCPaul
writes On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:56:03 +0000, Si wrote: In message , The Natural Philosopher writes Cost benefit analysis shows its cheaper to be single ;-) Yup, research confirms that men live longer if married so being single will involve less expenditure due to your earlier demise. You sure it doesn't just *seem* longer? Careful!!! - SWMBOoS! (cf. Monday's Panorama) -- Si |
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The message et
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words: Does everyone else have their heating off over night? Not me. :-) Yes, but principally because of the noise from expanding pipes and rads wakes us up... Even if it was on the programmable stat would set quite low (15C in the living room say) for the night period. But I do have the fall-back temperature set overnight to 13C on both the upstairs and downstairs stats. Despite having a leaky house (heatwise) my gas bills are not too bad. I am currently paying £57 per month which would appear to be around average if the figures quoted in the media from time to time are correct. As for people leaving the heating on, I think you are over estimating the abilty of many to understand how heating systems work. The people who turn the roomstat or TRVs up to maximum to warm the house up quicker are probably in a majority. :-) -- Roger Chapman |
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Skipweasel wrote:
In article , says... More attention to both desirable and undesirable solar gain in house design would probably bear more fruit than many of the pointless energy saving schemes which currently have the public attention. Hard to do when people still want mock-Georgian houses. A nice glass fronted[1] house with a good thick slab of something heavy behind it, equipped with blinds and vents should be able to do both heating and cooling if used properly. And there may be the rub - some occupiers will hate it simply because they don't understand how to use it or have fuddled the design up by building cupboards over the vents. However popular it is, the whiners will generally get the press and what could be a super design with real benefits in reducing energy costs will become unfashionable again (if it ever gets started) because of ignorance and the media's hunger for sensational stories. [1] For front, read "south elevation". You don't even need shutters. Mediterranean houses ate built in a spceific way. First of all, the build is massive. Concrete is the material of choice, or tile brick and terracotta. Rooves are very thick and cemented together. The eaves overhang, and there are usuallay overhung verandahs or ramadas, to provide shade in the high sun, but allow low level winter sun to penetrate. The large thermal mass allows peak summer day temperatures to be moderated by lower night time temperatures, especially in windows ar largely CLOSED by day, and opened by night. Everybody sleeps through the peak heat - 12pm -5pm or 6pm. Work is done in the mornings, and the evenings. Late evenings are playtime, for sitting outside and drinking cool drinks. In winter, as mnuch use of solar gain as possible is made. Sun in te windows raises the temperature, and the house stays warm at night. My sister has a house in greece, and a simple solar water panel on the roof makes it ALMOST unnecessary to have a fire or other heating. Just occasionally its needed on very cold days. In ulktra cold places, wood is preferred for construction, there being no real heat input to preserve, so insulation is far more important than thermal mass. However even here large triple glazed picture windows facing south can provide useful solar input in winter, and will typically have some form of thermal curtains over them after dark. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
Skipweasel wrote:
In article , says... What is clear is that at current prices there is no way that a system can be built using either manufactured parts or professional installation let alone both. DIY is the only way to go at the moment. I had friends in the 60s who had some old radiators in glass boxes on the roof of an extension. Their boiler wasn't on at all from late spring to early autumn, and the system cost very little to run - just the power for a small CH circulator run at its lowest setting, and even that was only on when there was sufficient available heat relative to the tank. That sounds impressive, till I compare with what we do here. No real CH at all in summer. None. In spring and autumn, very occasioanally, but largely only about 1/4 of the house, and the aga. That's a Kw. In winter? well anything from 3-10KW CONTINUOUS depending on the day. So I'd say we average about a Kw, with peaks being up to ten times that, and zero being the case for the hottest three months of the year. So manging to make it all work spring to autumn, is AFAIAC not really a big deal at all. When I last drove by the house it was still there - I guess it's paid for itself in the intervening forty years even if they had to scrounge some more radiators to replace rusted units at some point. I suspect the only way this will change is if house builders start equipping whole estates at the time of building. The extra cost then would be considerably less than retrofit systems, with the added advantage that several hundred houses with identical systems will mean the local plumbers have some chance to learn what's going on. |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:37:40 GMT, Skipweasel wrote: Does everyone else have their heating off over night? Yes, but principally because of the noise from expanding pipes and rads wakes us up... Even if it was on the programmable stat would set quite low (15C in the living room say) for the night period. As for people leaving the heating on, I think you are over estimating the abilty of many to understand how heating systems work. Indeed. We normally have it off, because we sleep almost over the boiler. Its not too loud, but its a quite area. I have slept curled up in front of many a fire in the past in less well insulated houses. I happen to LIKE heat. I was on the edge of hypothermia once, spent my childhood in a house with no insulation and no central heating, and never lost an almost permanent state of asthma till I moved to college..then I started smoking..ah well..I was at that time around 5'11 and weighed just under 8 stone. I am 13 stone and a smidegoon now, and its not as bad as it was..I actually FLOAT in water now. But if someone gave me the choice between death valley for a day, and -15C for a day, Id pick death valley every time. As long as there was water and shade. I dunno why, but when other people are puffing and panting about how hot it is, I am just beginning to feel comfortable (around 23-25C) |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
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Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:20:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: The Natural Philosopher is an accountant; the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. Whilst that is a factor it is not the overiding one for many. I resent that. I am an engineer,who has learnt the hard way that the recipe for good engineering is to do the difficult sums. The ones with pound signs in them. Hmmm. You are correct of course. However the greatest developments in my field (electronics) took place during WW2 Delays in engineering had to be acceoted within the circumstances they had to work in. DG |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
Derek Geldard wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:20:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: The Natural Philosopher is an accountant; the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. Whilst that is a factor it is not the overiding one for many. I resent that. I am an engineer,who has learnt the hard way that the recipe for good engineering is to do the difficult sums. The ones with pound signs in them. Hmmm. You are correct of course. However the greatest developments in my field (electronics) took place during WW2 well it is my field too, or was.. Delays in engineering had to be acceoted within the circumstances they had to work in. "An engineer is someone who can do for sixpence what any damn fool can do for a quid" DG |
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Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:37:40 GMT, Skipweasel wrote: Does everyone else have their heating off over night? Yes, but principally because of the noise from expanding pipes and rads wakes us up... Even if it was on the programmable stat would set quite low (15C in the living room say) for the night period. As for people leaving the heating on, I think you are over estimating the abilty of many to understand how heating systems work. Technically speaking I leave my heating on 24/365, and let the programmable stat deal with it. The result is that it never seems to fire at night when the stat temp drops to 15 from 21, and hardly ever fires for the seven or so warmer months of the year. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:27:29 GMT someone who may be Skipweasel
wrote this:- [1] For front, read "south elevation". It is not just the whiners. The volume house builders want to slap down their standard designs so as to maximise the number of boxes they can get on a bit of land. They are the ones with the means to influence officials and party politicians. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:28:45 +0000, David Hansen
wrote: However, simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something, if it was there are many things we would not do. What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen? As has been pointed out to you on many occasions your comparison is invalid. Something like a kitchen is bought for both functional and aesthetic reasons. The first are quantifiable, the second are not. Energy is entirely quantifiable, there are no aesthetics. You buy on cost whether that cost be financial or some other measure such as CO2 emissions in its generation. Whichever it is is entirely measurable. A Windsave Turbine on an urban roof in probably more than 90% of UK homes is never going to save money. In about half or more of the installations it would actually cost money to run as the controller consumes more energy than the turbine generates. In probably all cases it will never pay back its construction, distribution, fitting, repair and maintenance energy costs in its lifetime. It is more expensive both in financial and energy terms than almost any other generation system. Why would one fit one? |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:24:33 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:- However, simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something, if it was there are many things we would not do. What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen? As has been pointed out to you on many occasions your comparison is invalid. So some claim. However, I have yet to find their claims convincing. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On 10 Jan, 10:24, Peter Parry wrote:
In probably all cases it will never pay back its construction, distribution, fitting, repair and maintenance energy costs in its lifetime. It is more expensive both in financial and energy terms than almost any other generation system. That may not be that case for much longer: http://tinyurl.com/2g6e4p "The company [Windsave] will launch solar energy products this year and is also working on an unusual version of hydropower - using "grey water" from a household to drive a turbine in its drains". A turbine in the drains - more or less efficient than a washing machine motor and some fan blades on the roof? |
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David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:46:00 -0800 (PST) someone who may be wrote this:- Natural Philosopher et al, thanks for the financials - that is disappointing, not your replies that is - just the prospect that (at present) this technology does not pay for the consumer, and we haven't (at present!) got money for just showing off. Such things take along time to repay the investment if one only considers simple payback period. It is getting less, but it is still long. However, simple payback period is not the only reason for doing something, if it was there are many things we would not do. What is the simple payback period on a new kitchen? If it means eating at home rather than eating out, about a year in our case :-) |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
In article , says...
I had friends in the 60s who had some old radiators in glass boxes on the roof of an extension. Their boiler wasn't on at all from late spring to early autumn, and the system cost very little to run - just the power for a small CH circulator run at its lowest setting, and even that was only on when there was sufficient available heat relative to the tank. That sounds impressive, till I compare with what we do here. No real CH at all in summer. None. Sure, but this was in a much extended post-war asbestos prefab. The original house was a small core inside what ended up quite large. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote: On 10 Jan, 10:24, Peter Parry wrote: In probably all cases it will never pay back its construction, distribution, fitting, repair and maintenance energy costs in its lifetime. It is more expensive both in financial and energy terms than almost any other generation system. That may not be that case for much longer: http://tinyurl.com/2g6e4p "The company [Windsave] will launch solar energy products this year and is also working on an unusual version of hydropower - using "grey water" from a household to drive a turbine in its drains". A turbine in the drains - more or less efficient than a washing machine motor and some fan blades on the roof? Almost certainly less so! If you think about it, all the grey water leaving the building will have come in through the mains. How much energy do you think you could extract from the turbine in your water meter? However, if you *cooled* the grey water with a heat pump, you might just be talking - but I doubt it. -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
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Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, wrote: On 10 Jan, 10:24, Peter Parry wrote: In probably all cases it will never pay back its construction, distribution, fitting, repair and maintenance energy costs in its lifetime. It is more expensive both in financial and energy terms than almost any other generation system. That may not be that case for much longer: http://tinyurl.com/2g6e4p "The company [Windsave] will launch solar energy products this year and is also working on an unusual version of hydropower - using "grey water" from a household to drive a turbine in its drains". A turbine in the drains - more or less efficient than a washing machine motor and some fan blades on the roof? Almost certainly less so! If you think about it, all the grey water leaving the building will have come in through the mains. How much energy do you think you could extract from the turbine in your water meter? However, if you *cooled* the grey water with a heat pump, you might just be talking - but I doubt it. Its total ******** really. Far more energy from the **** by letting it make methane, & using a windmill to pump it into calor gaz bottles ;-) |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:17:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
However, if you *cooled* the grey water with a heat pump, you might just be talking - but I doubt it. A passive heat recovery system would be better would stand more of chance of breaking even for the accountants. As for power from a basin full of water or even a bath full falling 10' what a stupid idea, this is worse than the tiddly windmills. The potential energy of a 200l bath 3m above the turbine is only 200 x 9.8 x 3 = 5880 joules or 0.00163 kWhr. Note that is the potential energy, you'd never be able to recover all of it. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:20:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The Natural Philosopher is an accountant; the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. Whilst that is a factor it is not the overiding one for many. I resent that. I am an engineer, ... Correct response. B-) But please pay attention to my second sentence, there is a balance between making a profit in pure cash terms and making a profit with some other benefit that is not cash. If the former was always applied we'd still be living in caves as there would be no "blue sky" research. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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I've had this rather barmy idea floating around in my head for
a while relating to shower heat recovery. Run the drain through something like a plate exchanger, which has the cold feed running across the other side (probably the cold supply to the hot water cylinder, not to the shower directly). OK, you probably can't use a plate exchanger for dirty water -- one thought was a really deep U-trap, e.g. 8' for an upstairs shower. The trap is a double concentric pipe with a copper inner pipe with the cold feed in one and the waste water in the other, so there's a reasonable heat transfer contact time. (I've got some lengths of 22 and 28mm copper left from installing the heating, which I could use.) I would probably never build it, but the idea's been floating around in my head for a number of years now. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
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On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:28:05 +0000 (GMT) Dave Liquorice wrote :
The potential energy of a 200l bath 3m above the turbine is only 200 x 9.8 x 3 = 5880 joules or 0.00163 kWhr. Note that is the potential energy, you'd never be able to recover all of it. Thanks for explaining the arithmetic. I have often thought that it should be possible to have a small US-style hydro station at Teddington Lock near me,, but following your numbers 800m litres/day (avg) x 2.68m drop is just 258kW. It just seems amazing that so much could produce so little, especially since this assumes 100% efficiency. I guess head is everything. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
... On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:28:05 +0000 (GMT) Dave Liquorice wrote : The potential energy of a 200l bath 3m above the turbine is only 200 x 9.8 x 3 = 5880 joules or 0.00163 kWhr. Note that is the potential energy, you'd never be able to recover all of it. Thanks for explaining the arithmetic. I have often thought that it should be possible to have a small US-style hydro station at Teddington Lock near me,, but following your numbers 800m litres/day (avg) x 2.68m drop is just 258kW. It just seems amazing that so much could produce so little, especially since this assumes 100% efficiency. I guess head is everything. 258kw isn't nothing though - there's lots of smaller hydro schemes. Often cheap to build too. cheers, clive |
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On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:52:39 -0000, Clive George wrote:
It just seems amazing that so much could produce so little, especially since this assumes 100% efficiency. I guess head is everything. Erm, yes, head is everything... You can get small low head turbines but you phenomenal amounts of water to get any decent power from them. Water supply is normally the hard bit so the higher the head the more you get per kg of water passing through the turbine. 258kw isn't nothing though - there's lots of smaller hydro schemes. Often cheap to build too. But not with 2.68m heads... -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:48:20 +0000, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:28:05 +0000 (GMT) Dave Liquorice wrote : The potential energy of a 200l bath 3m above the turbine is only 200 x 9.8 x 3 = 5880 joules or 0.00163 kWhr. Note that is the potential energy, you'd never be able to recover all of it. Thanks for explaining the arithmetic. I have often thought that it should be possible to have a small US-style hydro station at Teddington Lock near me,, but following your numbers 800m litres/day (avg) x 2.68m drop is just 258kW. It just seems amazing that so much could produce so little, especially since this assumes 100% efficiency. I guess head is everything. Well it's the product of head and flow. The "Barrage du Rance" (or whetever the frogs call it) across the Rance estuary in northern France produces substantial power form very little head and massive volumes. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:01 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I've had this rather barmy idea floating around in my head for a while relating to shower heat recovery. Run the drain through something like a plate exchanger, which has the cold feed running across the other side (probably the cold supply to the hot water cylinder, not to the shower directly). OK, you probably can't use a plate exchanger for dirty water -- one thought was a really deep U-trap, e.g. 8' for an upstairs shower. The trap is a double concentric pipe with a copper inner pipe with the cold feed in one and the waste water in the other, so there's a reasonable heat transfer contact time. (I've got some lengths of 22 and 28mm copper left from installing the heating, which I could use.) I would probably never build it, but the idea's been floating around in my head for a number of years now. I think you could use a length of 42mm Cu pipe (which is totally compatible with BS 5454 push fit plastic waste). Around the out side of this (say 1m length) spiral four pieces of 8mm microbore and solder them in place, to make good thermal contact. Connect the four ends into a 22 - 4 x 8mm "manifold" fittings at each end of the spiral. then you have a reasonable waste water to pressured water heat exchanger. My guess is that the flow of an electric shower with this arrangement would probably settle out as double the flow rate without, or you could go to half power on the electric even in winter. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:01 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I've had this rather barmy idea floating around in my head for a while relating to shower heat recovery. Run the drain through something like a plate exchanger, We've had this discussion some time back, the american device that is sold for this purpose is a short length of ~2" copper pipe in series with the drain, around this are wrapped 4 adjacent coils of microbore soldered to the drain pipe and joined into the cold water feed to the shower. The drain water forms a skin around the copper pipe and as such is a good heat eaxchange surace without fouling. Last time I mentioned it it was more to boost a shower heat output than to save the planet. AJH |
Solar Heating / Wind Power / Solar Power / UK Grants
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:01:28 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
It just seems amazing that so much could produce so little, especially since this assumes 100% efficiency. I guess head is everything. Erm, yes, head is everything... You can get small low head turbines but you phenomenal amounts of water to get any decent power from them. Water supply is normally the hard bit so the higher the head the more you get per kg of water passing through the turbine. Which is why the local water supply company may be concerned if the house has an unmetered supply ;-) AJH |
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