We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

Here's what we'd be looking to secu
2 x doors at front of house (probably will be wood) - either of which
could be final exit door.
2 x patio doors, - will only need to be lockable from the inside
1 x back door, (wood or UPVC) - needs to be lockable from inside or
outside, but will probably not be final exit door
[Finally, possible (if funds permit), conservatory door at rear which
would be in series, (i.e. downstream of), the back door mentioned
above].

Any input from the group gratefully received as usual.
Mike

in article , Mike
Pepper at wrote on 30/10/07 11:28:

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

I have 2 locks on our wooden front door (1 auto-deadlocking mortise
nightlatch, 1 Union BS mortise deadlock, both Euros cylinders), back uPVC
door (Euro), shed (Yale-like rim-lock cylinder) and sidegate (mortise
sashlock, Euro) all keyed alike. Works very well. But was very expensive.
The BS deadbolt that take euro cylinders are generally very pricey. For
wooden doors, they will need security escutcheons. Just search and found
this one that looks good- the euro cyclinder is protected from the outside-
making it fairly immune from 'snapping'.
http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/...3621_Deadlocks.
html
There are lots of key types that can be used in different types of
cylinders- e.g. I have a rim-lock on the shed with a Yale-style round
cylinder that is keyed-alike with all the euros. Some ranges include
padlocks (and some padlocks can take eurocylinders).
And up the total cost of everything when choosing a brand/supplier.

Technically, the BS will only apply if you use the cylinder supplied with
it, but an insurance company would have to be very though to notice (most
would just accept the BS mark on the lock plate).

One thing to remember when having a large suit of lock keyed alike is to
remember to look at the key- for example, mine has a razor-like spike at the
front- I have cut myself on it- I wish I had checked the key. This only
really applies to 'normal' keys- the flat 'dimple' ones, and other
double-sided designs usually can't make such sharp bits.


Ben

"Mike Pepper" wrote in message
oups.com...
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

I've no experience of Euro locks but we've had the same lock on our outside
doors for many years. Getting rid of several keys on the bunch was a great
relief.

A bonus is that all our 'children' only need one key too.

The quality of the lock is more important than the number of keys.

Mary

On 2007-10-30 11:58:14 +0000, Ben Micklem said:


There are lots of key types that can be used in different types of
cylinders- e.g. I have a rim-lock on the shed with a Yale-style round
cylinder that is keyed-alike with all the euros. Some ranges include
padlocks (and some padlocks can take eurocylinders).
And up the total cost of everything when choosing a brand/supplier.



Agreed and three additional points.

- When selecting brand look at availability of the different required
cylinder lengths. I needed cylinders of different lengths and with
the cam at different offset positions. Not all brands have a
comprehensive range. Generally one wants to avoid having the cylinder
projecting from the door to any degree

- It may be worth adding a key theft/loss product to the home insurance
policy or choosing a policy with it included. If one key is lost, all
cylinders have to be replaced. Where keys differ, they may not all be
on the same keyring and may not all be lost at the same time.

- Rather like burglar alarms it probably better not to include the
subject of locks and types in household policies in order to secure a
discount. The discount is usually small and the terms provide a means
for the insurers to weasel out of paying or to reduce compensation.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Mike Pepper" wrote in message
oups.com...
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

I've no experience of Euro locks but we've had the same lock on our
outside doors for many years. Getting rid of several keys on the bunch was
a great relief.

A bonus is that all our 'children' only need one key too.

The quality of the lock is more important than the number of keys.

Mary


We have euro locks on our rear patio doors. Last weekend, we were burgled.
Copper and locksmith said the same thing. "Euro locks are $hite".
I won't divulge how they got in, but it was down to the euro lock. If these
are the ONLY lock source on that door, beware. If you use these, have
additional locks as well.

THESE EURO LOCKS CAN BE BREACHED VERY EASILY - I know, to my cost!!!!!

Mike Pepper wrote:
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

Here's what we'd be looking to secu
2 x doors at front of house (probably will be wood) - either of which
could be final exit door.
2 x patio doors, - will only need to be lockable from the inside
1 x back door, (wood or UPVC) - needs to be lockable from inside or
outside, but will probably not be final exit door
[Finally, possible (if funds permit), conservatory door at rear which
would be in series, (i.e. downstream of), the back door mentioned
above].

Any input from the group gratefully received as usual.
Mike

There are a few issues to consider. Here are some that come to mind...

1. You might have a set of keys to every lock in the house, but your
child may only be issued a front door key. If your child loses his/her
front door key, you have to replace *all* the locks in the house, with
the attendant delay whilst the locksmith re-pins your locks (or makes up
a new set).

2. Burglars look for an easy way out (and like to have escape options)
in case they are disturbed/the cops turn up. The more difficult it is
for a burglar to get *out* of your house, the less time he is likely to
spend *in* your house.

3. BS3621 "insurance approved" locks with Europrofile cylinders are not
so easy to come by and comparatively expensive.

4. Have you heard of "lock bumping"? try wikipedia and youtube. If you
decide to go the Europrofile route, make sure you get a "secure
section", and in particular, make sure that your key section is not the
standard Yale section. This will add significantly to the cost.

5. Cylinder locks are (generally speaking) easier to pick and easier to
drill than "traditional" mortice locks. However, as a commercial
locksmith told me "burglars don't pick or drill locks - they ram-raid or
kick the door in or break windows or crowbar or "loid" the doors or
windows - or simply walk in an unlocked door whilst you are watching the
telly. Having a good fence and security lights round the back of your
property is a better deterrent than a strong back door. Make sure the
neighbour's house looks a better bet".

HTH

In article , Ben Micklem
writes
in article , Mike
Pepper at wrote on 30/10/07 11:28:

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

I have 2 locks on our wooden front door (1 auto-deadlocking mortise
nightlatch,
Ah, the holy grail, where did you find one of them? I've used a union
escape lock to fake one up in the past.

1 Union BS mortise deadlock, both Euros cylinders), back uPVC
door (Euro), shed (Yale-like rim-lock cylinder) and sidegate (mortise
sashlock, Euro) all keyed alike. Works very well. But was very expensive.
The BS deadbolt that take euro cylinders are generally very pricey. For
wooden doors, they will need security escutcheons. Just search and found
this one that looks good- the euro cyclinder is protected from the outside-
making it fairly immune from 'snapping'.
http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/...3621_Deadlocks
.
html
Thanks for the link, better prices than I've seen on other BS approved euro
setups.

There are lots of key types that can be used in different types of
cylinders- e.g. I have a rim-lock on the shed with a Yale-style round
cylinder that is keyed-alike with all the euros. Some ranges include
padlocks (and some padlocks can take eurocylinders).
And up the total cost of everything when choosing a brand/supplier.

Technically, the BS will only apply if you use the cylinder supplied with
it, but an insurance company would have to be very though to notice (most
would just accept the BS mark on the lock plate).

One thing to remember when having a large suit of lock keyed alike is to
remember to look at the key- for example, mine has a razor-like spike at the
front- I have cut myself on it- I wish I had checked the key. This only
really applies to 'normal' keys- the flat 'dimple' ones, and other
double-sided designs usually can't make such sharp bits.

All good stuff, my own opinion is that I wont rely a euro as the sole
security on an exterior door, I'd use a euro lock at shoulder height with a
conventionally keyed deadlock at just above knee height, then you're down
to 2 keys. For non final exit doors you could substitute bolts or additional
patio door locks for the second mortice.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

"diy-newby" wrote in message ...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Mike Pepper" wrote in message
oups.com...
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

I've no experience of Euro locks but we've had the same lock on our
outside doors for many years. Getting rid of several keys on the bunch
was a great relief.

A bonus is that all our 'children' only need one key too.

The quality of the lock is more important than the number of keys.

Mary


We have euro locks on our rear patio doors. Last weekend, we were
burgled. Copper and locksmith said the same thing. "Euro locks are $hite".
I won't divulge how they got in, but it was down to the euro lock. If
these are the ONLY lock source on that door, beware. If you use these,
have additional locks as well.

THESE EURO LOCKS CAN BE BREACHED VERY EASILY - I know, to my cost!!!!!

I did say that the quality of the lock is ... etc ...

We have two locks on each outside door, one at the middle rail and another
at the bottom rail, where we used to have a bolt. They all use the same
keys.

Mary

"Rumble" wrote in message
...
Mike Pepper wrote:
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

Here's what we'd be looking to secu
2 x doors at front of house (probably will be wood) - either of which
could be final exit door.
2 x patio doors, - will only need to be lockable from the inside
1 x back door, (wood or UPVC) - needs to be lockable from inside or
outside, but will probably not be final exit door
[Finally, possible (if funds permit), conservatory door at rear which
would be in series, (i.e. downstream of), the back door mentioned
above].

Any input from the group gratefully received as usual.
Mike

There are a few issues to consider. Here are some that come to mind...

1. You might have a set of keys to every lock in the house, but your child
may only be issued a front door key. If your child loses his/her front
door key, you have to replace *all* the locks in the house, with the
attendant delay whilst the locksmith re-pins your locks (or makes up a new
set).

2. Burglars look for an easy way out (and like to have escape options) in
case they are disturbed/the cops turn up. The more difficult it is for a
burglar to get *out* of your house, the less time he is likely to spend
*in* your house.

3. BS3621 "insurance approved" locks with Europrofile cylinders are not so
easy to come by and comparatively expensive.

4. Have you heard of "lock bumping"? try wikipedia and youtube. If you
decide to go the Europrofile route, make sure you get a "secure section",
and in particular, make sure that your key section is not the standard
Yale section. This will add significantly to the cost.

5. Cylinder locks are (generally speaking) easier to pick and easier to
drill than "traditional" mortice locks. However, as a commercial
locksmith told me "burglars don't pick or drill locks - they ram-raid or
kick the door in or break windows or crowbar or "loid" the doors or
windows - or simply walk in an unlocked door whilst you are watching the
telly. Having a good fence and security lights round the back of your
property is a better deterrent than a strong back door. Make sure the
neighbour's house looks a better bet".

HTH

That last is a very good point. I reckon that all the local lads know what's
in our house and don't want it. We have nothing of value which could be
sold. The valuable things we do have aren't easily recognised - books and
pictures for example. and our neighbours' houses certainly do look more
attractive :-)

They all have burglar alarms too, we don't.

The things we'd miss most are tools, in the garage. That's like Fort Knox,
with several locks, long bolts, alarm - and so much clutter in front of the
doors it's not even easy for Spouse to get in!

Mary

in article , fred at wrote on 30/10/07
13:39:

In article , Ben Micklem
writes
in article , Mike
Pepper at wrote on 30/10/07 11:28:

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

I have 2 locks on our wooden front door (1 auto-deadlocking mortise
nightlatch,
Ah, the holy grail, where did you find one of them? I've used a union
escape lock to fake one up in the past.

I found it new-old-stock eBay for under a tenner- can't remember the make-
it was a discounted line.
http://www.lockshop-warehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Mortice_Nightlatches.html has
a few options. Mine looks identical to the Briton (and is also oval/euro, so
is probably the same thing).

Ben

in article , diy-newby at wrote on
30/10/07 12:42:

We have euro locks on our rear patio doors. Last weekend, we were burgled.
Copper and locksmith said the same thing. "Euro locks are $hite".
I won't divulge how they got in, but it was down to the euro lock. If these
are the ONLY lock source on that door, beware. If you use these, have
additional locks as well.

THESE EURO LOCKS CAN BE BREACHED VERY EASILY - I know, to my cost!!!!!

I think we can be fairly sure that any details of how they got in would not
be news to a burglar that was savvy enough to search usenet for tips.

Was it a 'snapping' of the cylinder? You can get 'safe-snap' cylinders that
are design to break off at a weaker point than the middle, leaving a couple
of pins connected to the cam still. Or just mount the cylinder flush with
the outside of the door, as they should always be.

'Bumping' can get around lots of types of cylinder locks, not just euros,
but the chances of a burglar carrying a bump key of an obscure profile are
slim. Some Euro cylinders are immune due to using dimple keys, some have
magnetic/sprung active/mobile components in the keys, etc.

It is not that there is an insurmountable flaw in the Euro design, you just
have to be aware of how they should be installed, and choose a cylinder
design that has a security/cost balance that you are happy with.

Most cylinders that come with uPVC doors are unbranded, may only be 5 pin,
and may not have any anti-drill prevention, may be installed with the
cylinder protruding, etc. The salesmen can make more sales when their doors
have hook bolts, shoot bolts, etc. which are easy to demonstrate to the
customer. These things cost less than a really good cylinder, which the
customer cannot immediately see is superior- so the money is saved on this
part of the door.

Look at a Kaba Star cylinder:
http://www.kaba.ch/produkte/schliesssysteme/mechanik/kabastar.html
26 pins, the external part of the cylinder is round and so almost impossible
to snap.
Or the higher end Mul-t-lock cylinders:
http://www.mul-t-lock.com/615.html

When the mounting is secure, and the key system is secure, there is no
reason why a Euro is inferior to another lock system.

Ben

In article , Ben Micklem
writes
in article , fred at wrote on 30/10/07
13:39:

In article , Ben Micklem
writes
in article , Mike
Pepper at wrote on 30/10/07 11:28:

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

I have 2 locks on our wooden front door (1 auto-deadlocking mortise
nightlatch,
Ah, the holy grail, where did you find one of them? I've used a union
escape lock to fake one up in the past.

I found it new-old-stock eBay for under a tenner- can't remember the make-
it was a discounted line.
http://www.lockshop-warehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Mortice_Nightlatches.html has
a few options. Mine looks identical to the Briton (and is also oval/euro, so
is probably the same thing).

The bit I was getting excited about was the auto deadlocking mortice latch
but the nightlatches at lockshop don't really do that, well except for the
Chubb 3R35 but I don't count that as the latch has such a pathetic throw.

I've used a union escape sashlock with euro cylinder to get a similar result.
The escape function links the latch operation to the euro cylinder and the
latch spindle holes are just blanked off. You get extra security by throwing
the sashlock deadbolt.

There's an ASSA escape sashlock that looks good for this job too and it
has DIN Grade 4 security rating.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

in article , fred at wrote on 30/10/07
15:12:

In article , Ben Micklem
writes
in article , fred at wrote on 30/10/07
13:39:

In article , Ben Micklem
writes
in article , Mike
Pepper at wrote on 30/10/07 11:28:

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

I have 2 locks on our wooden front door (1 auto-deadlocking mortise
nightlatch,
Ah, the holy grail, where did you find one of them? I've used a union
escape lock to fake one up in the past.

I found it new-old-stock eBay for under a tenner- can't remember the make-
it was a discounted line.
http://www.lockshop-warehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Mortice_Nightlatches.html has
a few options. Mine looks identical to the Briton (and is also oval/euro, so
is probably the same thing).

The bit I was getting excited about was the auto deadlocking mortice latch
but the nightlatches at lockshop don't really do that, well except for the
Chubb 3R35 but I don't count that as the latch has such a pathetic throw.

Ahh, I think we have a difference in definition of auto-deadlocking. I think
you mean that a deadbolt is automatically thrown, or a latch that extends
more when the door is closed. My less stringent definition is basically an
anti-thrust latch. The latch I have doesn't have a large throw, but it is a
substantial piece of metal (much bigger than the latch on a sashlock), and
cannot be retracted by pushing it when the door is closed.

I've used a union escape sashlock with euro cylinder to get a similar result.
The escape function links the latch operation to the euro cylinder and the
latch spindle holes are just blanked off. You get extra security by throwing
the sashlock deadbolt.

There's an ASSA escape sashlock that looks good for this job too and it
has DIN Grade 4 security rating.

What I wanted in a lock is different from this- I wanted to be able to close
the door, and there be a bolt that couldn't be easily retracted from the
outside in place, but still be able to open from the inside with a normal
door knob. When we are out of the house, we always use the knee-high
deadbolt.

Ben

On Oct 30, 11:28 am, Mike Pepper mike_goo...@peppertree-
broadcast.co.uk wrote:
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key

We have all doors keyed alike with eurocylinders. the front door
locks when closed but the oethrs have to be locked explicitly with a
key. the front door can also be deadlocked using a key on either side.

two thougths:

1) Don't use the same key on the gate: Someone could remove the
cylinder and take it to a locksmith to get a key made. It's the same
reasoning that means that petrol cap locks on cars should not use the
same key as the car doors or ignition.

2) the eurocylinders we have are such that you cannot put a key in on
both sides at the same time. This means that you can lock yourself
out (even if you have a key) if you leave a key in the inside cylinder
and then close the door.


Robert

in article , RobertL at
wrote on 30/10/07 15:40:

On Oct 30, 11:28 am, Mike Pepper mike_goo...@peppertree-
broadcast.co.uk wrote:
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key

We have all doors keyed alike with eurocylinders. the front door
locks when closed but the oethrs have to be locked explicitly with a
key. the front door can also be deadlocked using a key on either side.

two thougths:

1) Don't use the same key on the gate: Someone could remove the
cylinder and take it to a locksmith to get a key made. It's the same
reasoning that means that petrol cap locks on cars should not use the
same key as the car doors or ignition.

How would they know that the house was keyed-alike with the side gate- it
isn't a very normal thing to do...?

2) the eurocylinders we have are such that you cannot put a key in on
both sides at the same time. This means that you can lock yourself
out (even if you have a key) if you leave a key in the inside cylinder
and then close the door.

Good point- the ones that can take two keys are called 'fire safe' or
such-like.

Ben

On 2007-10-30 16:13:35 +0000, Ben Micklem said:

in article , RobertL at
wrote on 30/10/07 15:40:

On Oct 30, 11:28 am, Mike Pepper mike_goo...@peppertree-
broadcast.co.uk wrote:
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key

We have all doors keyed alike with eurocylinders. the front door
locks when closed but the oethrs have to be locked explicitly with a
key. the front door can also be deadlocked using a key on either side.

two thougths:

1) Don't use the same key on the gate: Someone could remove the
cylinder and take it to a locksmith to get a key made. It's the same
reasoning that means that petrol cap locks on cars should not use the
same key as the car doors or ignition.

How would they know that the house was keyed-alike with the side gate- it
isn't a very normal thing to do...?

Not that common to put a euro lock on a gate in this country.



2) the eurocylinders we have are such that you cannot put a key in on
both sides at the same time. This means that you can lock yourself
out (even if you have a key) if you leave a key in the inside cylinder
and then close the door.

Good point- the ones that can take two keys are called 'fire safe' or
such-like.

But there is a minimum length for these - can't remember what it is off hand.

Ben Micklem wrote:

What I wanted in a lock is different from this- I wanted to be able to close
the door, and there be a bolt that couldn't be easily retracted from the
outside in place, but still be able to open from the inside with a normal
door knob. When we are out of the house, we always use the knee-high
deadbolt.

Ben


If I am understanding you correctly this is the arrangement I have on my
front door. I have two Euro-locks one at the top and the other at the
bottom. They are locked with keyed-alike keys and I lock them both when
the house is left empty. By the handle I have another Euro-lock again
keyed-alike but with a thumb-turn on the inside. I lock this at night
when I am in the house. It means that it is possible to exit in a fire
without having to find the key first. Works for me.

Andrew

"Rumble" wrote in message
...
....
1. You might have a set of keys to every lock in the house, but your
child may only be issued a front door key. If your child loses his/her
front door key, you have to replace *all* the locks in the house, with
the attendant delay whilst the locksmith re-pins your locks (or makes up
a new set)....

Or you choose a master key system and have a sub key for the front door that
you give to the kids. In that case, only the front door lock needs to be
changed if they lose their keys.

Colin Bignell

nightjar cpb@ wrote:
"Rumble" wrote in message
...
...
1. You might have a set of keys to every lock in the house, but your
child may only be issued a front door key. If your child loses his/her
front door key, you have to replace *all* the locks in the house, with
the attendant delay whilst the locksmith re-pins your locks (or makes up
a new set)....

Or you choose a master key system and have a sub key for the front door that
you give to the kids. In that case, only the front door lock needs to be
changed if they lose their keys.

Colin Bignell


Absolutely, except that now it's getting really expensive and master key
systems are inherently less secure than just keyed alike... ;-)

"Mike Pepper" wrote in message
oups.com...
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.
SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential
burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that
it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

Does anyone have any views or experience of this?

I've gone one stage further and use a master / sub-master / slave key system
for all the locks I need to use. They key I carry will open my house, my
factories and my place in France. Sub-master 1 will open my house only.
Slave 1 will open my garden gates and garage only. Sub-master 2 will open my
factoreis and the office. Slave 2 will open the factories only. Sub-master 3
will open my place in France only. Slave 3 will open the garden gates and
garage only. I get a discount on both my house and business insurance for
the level of security attained.


- also are Euro
locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed
deadlocks?
(Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard -
can't remember the number offhand).

The more secure ones - you need at least six pins and preferably seven -
tend to be a bit long for a standard 44mm external door, making them
potentially vulnerable to being broken open with an adjustable wrench. That
means you need to use a security escutcheon, which provides a smooth, round
and conical outer face. That usually needs a couple of bolts through from
the inside, which, in turn, means you need to buy a lock that has holes for
the escutcheon bolts. You really need to talk to a proper locksmith to
explore all the possibilities.

Here's what we'd be looking to secu
2 x doors at front of house (probably will be wood) - either of which
could be final exit door.
2 x patio doors, - will only need to be lockable from the inside
1 x back door, (wood or UPVC) - needs to be lockable from inside or
outside, but will probably not be final exit door

Before choosing uPVC, check that the oveall length of cylinder required and
the lengths needed on each side of the operating cam are available for the
cylinder system you have chosen.

Colin Bignell

"Mike Pepper" wrote in message
oups.com...
We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all
external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm
considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the
garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key
footprint' in my pocket is smaller.

Go discuss your requirements with a locksmith.
You could have a system where all locks are keyed differently but supplied
with a key/keys that open them all, (common keyed) that way you only have to
carry one key with you.
Re 'bumping', get your locks with a restricted key section, that way it's
highly unlikely someone will have the correct 'bump' key that will open your
locks.
For insurance purposes your cylinders must be 6 pin & fitted with security
escutcheons.
As to whether thumbturns on the inside are acceptable it's a bit of a grey
area, if someone climbs in through a window he/she can open the door from
the inside and let their accomplices in and carry your telly etc out.
In premises such as guest houses the fire officers will insist on thumbturns
internally so there must be some compromise.

In article , Ben Micklem
writes

Ahh, I think we have a difference in definition of auto-deadlocking. I think
you mean that a deadbolt is automatically thrown, or a latch that extends
more when the door is closed. My less stringent definition is basically an
anti-thrust latch. The latch I have doesn't have a large throw, but it is a
substantial piece of metal (much bigger than the latch on a sashlock), and
cannot be retracted by pushing it when the door is closed.

Actually your definition is fine, I missed those details in the descriptions in
my first read.

What I wanted in a lock is different from this- I wanted to be able to close
the door, and there be a bolt that couldn't be easily retracted from the
outside in place, but still be able to open from the inside with a normal
door knob. When we are out of the house, we always use the knee-high
deadbolt.

Gotcha, I don't think our requirements are that different (honest). The
escape sashlocks appear to be a bit tougher than the nightlatches I have
looked having heavyweight boxed strikes and the extra option of throwing a
deadbolt in the top lock too.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

"Rumble" wrote in message
...
nightjar cpb@ wrote:
"Rumble" wrote in message
...
...
1. You might have a set of keys to every lock in the house, but your
child may only be issued a front door key. If your child loses his/her
front door key, you have to replace *all* the locks in the house, with
the attendant delay whilst the locksmith re-pins your locks (or makes up
a new set)....

Or you choose a master key system and have a sub key for the front door
that
you give to the kids. In that case, only the front door lock needs to be
changed if they lose their keys.

Colin Bignell


Absolutely, except that now it's getting really expensive and master key
systems are inherently less secure than just keyed alike... ;-)

Less secure does not, however, equate to insecure, provided you start with a
decent system.

Colin Bignell

Scabbydug wrote:

As to whether thumbturns on the inside are acceptable it's a bit of a grey
area, if someone climbs in through a window he/she can open the door from
the inside and let their accomplices in and carry your telly etc out.
In premises such as guest houses the fire officers will insist on thumbturns
internally so there must be some compromise.


Which is why I have both thumbturn and normal locks on the same door
locked with the same key. As I think I said earlier I lock the normal
lock when I go out so someone breaking in cannot open the door from the
inside but lock with the thumb turn at night when I am in the house so I
can get out in an emergency. So, insecure only in as much as someone
could break in at night when I am asleep upstairs and open the door from
the inside to let their friends in.

Andrew

lots and lots of useful stuff

Thank you everyone for lots of useful points to mull over. I
particularly like the thoughts about keys that could be inserted from
either side, (fire safe?) - that's an angle I'd not looked at which
needs some consideration.
I'd not considered the 'kids loosing keys option', but having a 2 year
old son, that is something that is obviously on the horizon, and so a
welcome addition to the mix pot of ideas- maybe that points towards
the master key system to mitigate against having to re-key the whole
house being a good idea.
I think my summary from the above posts is that Euro locked keyed
alike, (or master keyed) will be OK as long as I go for the BS
standard, (with its security escution), and pick a make with a non too
common profile in order to resist 'bumping' attacks. If I get a snap-
safe make too then all the better.
Thanks everyone.