The government has announced the phasing out of filament lamps. Looking
around my house, many of the light fittings will have to be changed due
to the larger size and different shape of the new lamps. Spotlights are
a particular problem because the low energy lamps are huge compared with
what they replace and the fittings are compact. Does anyone know if
halogen lamps are going to be approved? They are I think more efficient
than normal filament lamps. Replacement fittings using those should be
about the same size or smaller. Perhaps the great deep-thinking ones
haven't thought about halogens? Is there a discussion document or some
other written statement from the government?

Peter Scott

Peter Scott wrote:
The government has announced the phasing out of filament lamps. Looking
around my house, many of the light fittings will have to be changed due
to the larger size and different shape of the new lamps. Spotlights are
a particular problem because the low energy lamps are huge compared with
what they replace and the fittings are compact. Does anyone know if
halogen lamps are going to be approved? They are I think more efficient
than normal filament lamps. Replacement fittings using those should be
about the same size or smaller. Perhaps the great deep-thinking ones
haven't thought about halogens? Is there a discussion document or some
other written statement from the government?

See other thread "Govt banning lightbulbs.... wot about halogens?" where
this is being discussed!

In article ,
Peter Scott writes:
The government has announced the phasing out of filament lamps. Looking
around my house, many of the light fittings will have to be changed due
to the larger size and different shape of the new lamps. Spotlights are
a particular problem because the low energy lamps are huge compared with
what they replace and the fittings are compact. Does anyone know if
halogen lamps are going to be approved? They are I think more efficient
than normal filament lamps.

They can be slightly more efficient, or be designed for longer life.
Most of the retail halogens are designed for longer life, as that's
a marketable feature. Anyone using halogens by definition isn't
buying on efficiency, so that's not a marketable feature to those
people.

Even the most efficient halogens come nowhere near the definition
of efficient lighting used in Part L of the building regs. That
requires 40 lumens/watt where efficient lighting is required, and
halogens are around half that. Only fluorescent can meet that in
residential lighting at the moment. There are LED's which can do
40 lumens/watt, but they're too expensive and too dim for main-
stream lighting.

Replacement fittings using those should be
about the same size or smaller. Perhaps the great deep-thinking ones
haven't thought about halogens? Is there a discussion document or some
other written statement from the government?

Halogens will be replaced by small high intesity discharge lights.
That transition has already happened in the commercial world.
The initial cost of these lights hasn't dropped enough for them
to enter the residential world yet, where initial cost rather than
total cost of ownership is what counts. I suspect that when the
Chinese start churning them out, they will become rapidly
widespread in residential lighting where halogens are used today.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Peter Scott writes:
The government has announced the phasing out of filament lamps. Looking
around my house, many of the light fittings will have to be changed due
to the larger size and different shape of the new lamps. Spotlights are
a particular problem because the low energy lamps are huge compared with
what they replace and the fittings are compact. Does anyone know if
halogen lamps are going to be approved? They are I think more efficient
than normal filament lamps.

They can be slightly more efficient, or be designed for longer life.
Most of the retail halogens are designed for longer life, as that's
a marketable feature. Anyone using halogens by definition isn't
buying on efficiency, so that's not a marketable feature to those
people.

Even the most efficient halogens come nowhere near the definition
of efficient lighting used in Part L of the building regs. That
requires 40 lumens/watt where efficient lighting is required, and
halogens are around half that. Only fluorescent can meet that in
residential lighting at the moment. There are LED's which can do
40 lumens/watt, but they're too expensive and too dim for main-
stream lighting.

Replacement fittings using those should be
about the same size or smaller. Perhaps the great deep-thinking ones
haven't thought about halogens? Is there a discussion document or some
other written statement from the government?

Halogens will be replaced by small high intesity discharge lights.
That transition has already happened in the commercial world.
The initial cost of these lights hasn't dropped enough for them
to enter the residential world yet, where initial cost rather than
total cost of ownership is what counts. I suspect that when the
Chinese start churning them out, they will become rapidly
widespread in residential lighting where halogens are used today.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I just hope the chavs on the estate nearby can keep their 500watt porch
lights with the movement detectors

On 2007-09-29 20:26:31 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

Halogens will be replaced by small high intesity discharge lights.
That transition has already happened in the commercial world.
The initial cost of these lights hasn't dropped enough for them
to enter the residential world yet, where initial cost rather than
total cost of ownership is what counts. I suspect that when the
Chinese start churning them out, they will become rapidly
widespread in residential lighting where halogens are used today.

Are these plug compatible with the existing halogens? What about
spectrum and brightness?

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-09-29 20:26:31 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

Halogens will be replaced by small high intesity discharge lights.
That transition has already happened in the commercial world.
The initial cost of these lights hasn't dropped enough for them
to enter the residential world yet, where initial cost rather than
total cost of ownership is what counts. I suspect that when the
Chinese start churning them out, they will become rapidly
widespread in residential lighting where halogens are used today.

Are these plug compatible with the existing halogens?

No. They require control gear like (but different from)
fluorescents.

What about spectrum and brightness?

Spectrum is continuous, but slightly spikey. They can be made
almost any colour temperature. 2700K (same as halogens), 3500K,
and 4000K are commonly available values. Ioannis Galidakis
has some spectra here, although they are all more powerful
lamps than you'd use indoors...
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c....html#1halidep
They can be made much higher colour temperature for special
purposes. I have a 10,000K one which was designed for lighting
tropical fish and corals. I used it to light the garden
one Christmas day when it had snowed, and it was an amazing
effect. 15,000K and 20,000K ones exist too.

You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power. A possible problem
for some home use is that there aren't any as dim as many of
the halogens at the moment, but that will be resolved when
the demand appears.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2007-09-29 22:39:16 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-09-29 20:26:31 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

Halogens will be replaced by small high intesity discharge lights.
That transition has already happened in the commercial world.
The initial cost of these lights hasn't dropped enough for them
to enter the residential world yet, where initial cost rather than
total cost of ownership is what counts. I suspect that when the
Chinese start churning them out, they will become rapidly
widespread in residential lighting where halogens are used today.

Are these plug compatible with the existing halogens?

No. They require control gear like (but different from)
fluorescents.



What about spectrum and brightness?

Spectrum is continuous, but slightly spikey. They can be made
almost any colour temperature. 2700K (same as halogens), 3500K,
and 4000K are commonly available values. Ioannis Galidakis
has some spectra here, although they are all more powerful
lamps than you'd use indoors...
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c....html#1halidep
They can be made much higher colour temperature for special
purposes. I have a 10,000K one which was designed for lighting
tropical fish and corals. I used it to light the garden
one Christmas day when it had snowed, and it was an amazing
effect. 15,000K and 20,000K ones exist too.

You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power. A possible problem
for some home use is that there aren't any as dim as many of
the halogens at the moment, but that will be resolved when
the demand appears.

Now I know the things you mean. A heat issue as well if the aquarium
ones are anything to go by, although those are particularly intense in
order to be sufficient for corals.

On 29 Sep 2007 21:39:16 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:



You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power.

You learn something new every day.

Sharp intake of breath

You mean a Tungsten Halogen Lamp is not a "Metal Halide" ?

Dunces cap 8-||

What distinguishes a "Metal Halide" then.

DG

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-09-29 22:39:16 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:
You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power. A possible problem
for some home use is that there aren't any as dim as many of
the halogens at the moment, but that will be resolved when
the demand appears.

Now I know the things you mean. A heat issue as well if the aquarium
ones are anything to go by, although those are particularly intense in
order to be sufficient for corals.

Well yes, but mine's a 250W lamp.

Standard metal halides go down to 35W that I know of,
which will be approximately 100W equiv light output,
but less heat than a 50W halogen. There might be some
lower powered ones now that I haven't come across.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2007-09-29 23:16:45 +0100, andrew@a20 (Andrew Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-09-29 22:39:16 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:
You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power. A possible problem
for some home use is that there aren't any as dim as many of
the halogens at the moment, but that will be resolved when
the demand appears.

Now I know the things you mean. A heat issue as well if the aquarium
ones are anything to go by, although those are particularly intense in
order to be sufficient for corals.

Well yes, but mine's a 250W lamp.

Standard metal halides go down to 35W that I know of,
which will be approximately 100W equiv light output,
but less heat than a 50W halogen. There might be some
lower powered ones now that I haven't come across.

So it seems like the ideal would be something that can be retrofitted
to existing fittings or perhaps a ballast/controller that replaces the
transformer on low voltage ones. However, I imagine that there could
be an RF emission issue if the two are separated, or not?

Otherwise I suppose fittings that have the same hole size in the
ceiling would be another way and the control system in behind it.

In article ,
Derek Geldard writes:
On 29 Sep 2007 21:39:16 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:



You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power.

You learn something new every day.

Sharp intake of breath

You mean a Tungsten Halogen Lamp is not a "Metal Halide" ?

;-)

No. A metal halide lamp is a high pressure mercury vapour discharge
lamp which has a mixture of other metals and halides added to the
gases to create a fuller visible spectrum, rather than using a
phosphor coating as done by most conventional mercury vapour lamps.

What makes it particularly suitable for replacing halogen reflector
lamps is that the arc tube in which the discharge takes place can
be quite small, making it a tiny source of intense light, not
dissimilar to a filament (better in fact). This sort of light
source is much easier to control with reflectors and/or lenses than
a large source like a fluorescent tube, which is why fluorescent
tubes don't make a good basis for designing small reflector lamps.

Next time you're in a supermarket or furniture store which has
been fitted out in the last 10 years or so, take a look at the
spot lighting. Chances are it will be metal halide lamps.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Owain wrote:
John wrote:

I just hope the chavs on the estate nearby can keep their 500watt porch
lights with the movement detectors

There was a WW2 anti-aircraft searchlight on Ebay a short while ago.
4kW. I was rather tempted.

Owain

Carbon arc? That would blind them, possibly permanently. A 1.6kW
arc with no reflector cause about half an hour of total blindness.


NT

On 29 Sep 2007 22:38:14 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Derek Geldard writes:
On 29 Sep 2007 21:39:16 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:



You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power.

You learn something new every day.

Sharp intake of breath

You mean a Tungsten Halogen Lamp is not a "Metal Halide" ?

;-)

No. A metal halide lamp is a high pressure mercury vapour discharge
lamp which has a mixture of other metals and halides added to the
gases to create a fuller visible spectrum, rather than using a
phosphor coating as done by most conventional mercury vapour lamps.

Oh dear me there's a lot of this about you know.

Presumably they need control gear of some kind. (Not seen any BTW even
in such as www.rswww.com BICBW) .

I'll check amongst my old mates in the industry, not that it will
change the facts, only re-assure me if I've lost my marbles I'm no
worse than they are. Which is something.

:-(

DG

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-09-29 23:16:45 +0100, andrew@a20 (Andrew Gabriel) said:
Standard metal halides go down to 35W that I know of,
which will be approximately 100W equiv light output,
but less heat than a 50W halogen. There might be some
lower powered ones now that I haven't come across.

So it seems like the ideal would be something that can be retrofitted
to existing fittings or perhaps a ballast/controller that replaces the

Well I was going to say I don't think anyone's done that yet,
but a Google search revealed an MR16 Metal Halide lamp from
China, so as predicted earlier, they're already on the ball.
http://fszhaoming.en.alibaba.com/pro...lide_Lamp.html
It uses a car headlamp arc tube, which means it will be operating
as a xenon lamp at switch-on for instant light output, until the
mercury and other compounds take over the discharge as they heat
up.

What I was actually Googling for and didn't find was that I think
I've seen a retrofit for one of the larger PAR lamps in the US
which instead contains electronic control gear driving a metal
halide arc tube.

transformer on low voltage ones. However, I imagine that there could
be an RF emission issue if the two are separated, or not?

No more so than for remoted electronic ballasts for fluorescent
lamps. There's usually a max lead length to keep within permitted
emissions limits. There is a high voltage starting pulse, which
also imposes limits on lead length or it gets lost in the lead
capacitance.

Otherwise I suppose fittings that have the same hole size in the
ceiling would be another way and the control system in behind it.

I think that will become common. I suspect the availability of
much higher colour temperatures than are possible with halogens
will be a trigger for adoption, much like it was with HID headlamps.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Owain" wrote in message
...
John wrote:
I just hope the chavs on the estate nearby can keep their 500watt porch
lights with the movement detectors

There was a WW2 anti-aircraft searchlight on Ebay a short while ago. 4kW.
I was rather tempted.

Owain

I don't like to be the first to break it to you Owain but WW2 is over!
You don't need one.


mark

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Spectrum is continuous, but slightly spikey. They can be made
almost any colour temperature. 2700K (same as halogens), 3500K,
and 4000K are commonly available values. Ioannis Galidakis
has some spectra here, although they are all more powerful
lamps than you'd use indoors...
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c....html#1halidep

That is quite an interesting page...

It does possibly explain why (to my eyes) there is such a disparity
between the acceptability of light output from ordinary linear
fluorescent tubes and CFL tubes.

The spectra show:

Tungsten is as you would expect not dissimilar from daylight, but with
attenuation at the blue end:
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c...cadescent2.gif

The regular fluorescent has the occasional non linearity in spectra, but
is not a big step away from daylight or tungsten:
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c...gifs/FL37K.gif

However the CFL is *dramatically* different:
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c...ifs/CFL27K.gif

I guess, depending on where in the spectrum your cones peak in
sensitivity to the three primaries, different observers could end up
seeing very different results. For example you would only need a small
shift in the centre of your blue response to end up "missing" a large
proportion of the bandpass limited blue reflection. No doubt creating
the yellow/green cast that many complain of.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message ,
lid writes
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2007-09-29 22:39:16 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:
You get around 3 times the light output from a metal halide
than you do a halogen for the same power. A possible problem
for some home use is that there aren't any as dim as many of
the halogens at the moment, but that will be resolved when
the demand appears.

Now I know the things you mean. A heat issue as well if the aquarium
ones are anything to go by, although those are particularly intense in
order to be sufficient for corals.

Well yes, but mine's a 250W lamp.

Standard metal halides go down to 35W that I know of,
which will be approximately 100W equiv light output,
but less heat than a 50W halogen. There might be some
lower powered ones now that I haven't come across.

Welch Allyn have been making such lamps for some years, primarily for
the medical market. However, their products are also used in some diving
and bicycle lights. Their 10W Solarc lamps feature integrated reflector
and separate (unregulated) ballast, designed to run from around 12V, and
have found their way into several high-end cycle lights.

http://www.walamp.com/lpd/lamptype/i...12413818101355

http://www.lumicycle.com/pages/default.aspx
http://www.bikelights.com/Products/Arc.htm
http://www.niterider.com/bike.shtml
--
Alex

John Rumm wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Spectrum is continuous, but slightly spikey. They can be made
almost any colour temperature. 2700K (same as halogens), 3500K,
and 4000K are commonly available values. Ioannis Galidakis
has some spectra here, although they are all more powerful
lamps than you'd use indoors...
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c....html#1halidep

That is quite an interesting page...

It does possibly explain why (to my eyes) there is such a disparity
between the acceptability of light output from ordinary linear
fluorescent tubes and CFL tubes.

The spectra show:

Tungsten is as you would expect not dissimilar from daylight, but with
attenuation at the blue end:
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c...cadescent2.gif


The regular fluorescent has the occasional non linearity in spectra, but
is not a big step away from daylight or tungsten:
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c...gifs/FL37K.gif


However the CFL is *dramatically* different:
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.c...ifs/CFL27K.gif


I guess, depending on where in the spectrum your cones peak in
sensitivity to the three primaries, different observers could end up
seeing very different results. For example you would only need a small
shift in the centre of your blue response to end up "missing" a large
proportion of the bandpass limited blue reflection. No doubt creating
the yellow/green cast that many complain of.


So it looks as though there are potential direct replacement lamps that
will meet efficiency criteria and have a suitable colour temperature,
but not yet. Guess I'd better stock up on enough tungsten lamps to see
me through so I don't change my fittings unnecessarily. I am currently
(!) experimenting with fluorescents in half my wall fittings to compare
light outputs and to get an idea of how the light looks. I'm not
impressed. The fluoro light is harsh, even though I use 'warm' ones. And
of course I can't dim them, so I have to have lower light levels and
then buy additional lights to top up when I need more brightness. Like
most people, I'm really keen to cut down on electricity consumption for
lights, for the sake of my pocket as well as the environment, but it
isn't really satisfactory yet.

Does anyone know what happened in Oz when they changed? Were most people
forced to change fittings or did they just put up with glaring lamps
sticking out of the top of wall fittings or hanging under lamp shades?


Peter Scott

This letter was in my local paper today. Says it all really.
_______________________________________________
Saving will be wiped out

PETER RIDING, Saffron Walden, Essex.
The environment secretary, Hilary Benn, has announced that the
government plans to phase out all traditional high energy light bulbs by
2011. He estimates that the move will save five million tonnes of CO2 a
year and so take Britain closer to its target of reducing greenhouse gas
emissions by 60pc by 2050. Unfortunately, his cabinet colleagues in the
Department for Transport want to expand aviation and thus increase
greenhouse gas emissions. For example, building another runway at
Stansted would add more than five million tonnes of CO2 a year. So Mr
Benn's light bulb efforts will be blown out of the water by just one
extra runway at Stansted. So much for joined up thinking.
__________________________________________________ _

Peter Scott

"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...
This letter was in my local paper today. Says it all really.
_______________________________________________
Saving will be wiped out

PETER RIDING, Saffron Walden, Essex.
The environment secretary, Hilary Benn, has announced that the government
plans to phase out all traditional high energy light bulbs by 2011. He
estimates that the move will save five million tonnes of CO2 a year and so
take Britain closer to its target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions by
60pc by 2050. Unfortunately, his cabinet colleagues in the Department for
Transport want to expand aviation and thus increase greenhouse gas
emissions. For example, building another runway at Stansted would add more
than five million tonnes of CO2 a year. So Mr Benn's light bulb efforts
will be blown out of the water by just one extra runway at Stansted. So
much for joined up thinking.
__________________________________________________ _

Peter Scott

\BTW: Have you every counted how many incandescent bulbs are fitted to an
average British Runway?
Centre-Line lights, Edge lights; REILS (Runway End Indicator Lights);
Threshold bars; 5CL Approach lights; 'Running Rabbit' Lead-in Lights; PAPI
(OK that's only four)' High Speed Turn-off Marker Lights; Taxiway Lights;
Stop Lights; plus all those lights illuminating the traffic boards ...... .
There's probably more lamps fitted to a runway and in continuous use than in
an average town. 'Joined-up?

--

Brian

Brian Sharrock wrote:
\BTW: Have you every counted how many incandescent bulbs are fitted to an
average British Runway?
Centre-Line lights, Edge lights; REILS (Runway End Indicator Lights);
Threshold bars; 5CL Approach lights; 'Running Rabbit' Lead-in Lights; PAPI
(OK that's only four)' High Speed Turn-off Marker Lights; Taxiway Lights;
Stop Lights; plus all those lights illuminating the traffic boards ...... .
There's probably more lamps fitted to a runway and in continuous use than in
an average town. 'Joined-up?


Incandescents? ISTR that was where I first came across Cold Cathode
lights. Anyway, imagine how much CO2 would come out of a burning 747...
they try to avoid that!

Andy