I see that the question of shower flow rates hasn't been raised in, oh,
hours, so to fill this gap....

Help! My shower flow is rubbish!

I'm not after spine tinging power shower performance, just enough flow
to wash the soap out of my hair..

I've measured various flow rates, and my question is whether there is
anything out of the ordinary with these figures given the setup?
And if not can I 'fine tune' the flow up to acceptable in any way, or
should I give up and buy a pump?

The setup is:
Cold supply: 15mm pipe from cold tank to shower; total run of ~5m, with
2 gentle 90 degree bends, 2 90 degree elbows, and a 45 degree elbow.
btw, the take off from the cwt is level with the take off to the hot
tank (tut tut?).
Hot supply: 15mm pipe taken from the 22m hot "down service" supply pipe
taken off just below the up-to-overflow-into-the-cold-tank T (ie. the
22mm has already done a gentle 90 degree bend plus 2 Tees); total run of
15mm pipe is ~3m with 1 gentle 90 degree, 2 90 degree elbows, and a 45
degree elbow.


Flow rate out of shower valve (~2m below bottom of CWT) is 14 l/min.

Adding the shower hose reduces flow to 8.5 l/min (level with the shower
valve). Shower hose internal bore is around 12mm.

Adding the shower head reduces flow to 7.5 l/min (again level with
shower valve). This would be ok, but the final straw is...

Raising the shower head 0.8m so I can stand under it reduces flow to 4.5
l/min. ARGH!





Assuming those figures are par for the course, sniff, then a google of
the archive suggests my options are...

1 - improve flow, ie. fit 22mm pipe, and take the hot supply direct from
the tank (surrey flange).
Can anyone quantify how much difference these are likely to make?
My guess is not very much, but then I'm working on marginal amounts here
anyway...

2 - improve pressure, ie.
2.1 - fit a pump
2.2 raise the height of the CWT.

The maximum the CWT can be raised is ~60cm - lowering the handset by
this suggests a flow of 6 l/min, not enough on its own, and a heap of
effort.

I'm reluctant to go the pump route due to likely noise, and it's
overkill in that it'll deliver more water than is needed. It may require
22mm piping too (and definitely the surrey flange).

In summary, I'd like to avoid a pump, but am I stuffed?

rgds all,
graham.

you need at least a 1 m head from shower head to base of cold watertank,this
gives a very good shower,you will also be best advised to have a seperate
cold supply from tank to shower outlet,the only other route is mains
electric,or power shower

"graham" wrote in message
...
I see that the question of shower flow rates hasn't been raised in, oh,
hours, so to fill this gap....

Help! My shower flow is rubbish!

I'm not after spine tinging power shower performance, just enough flow to
wash the soap out of my hair..

I've measured various flow rates, and my question is whether there is
anything out of the ordinary with these figures given the setup?
And if not can I 'fine tune' the flow up to acceptable in any way, or
should I give up and buy a pump?

The setup is:
Cold supply: 15mm pipe from cold tank to shower; total run of ~5m, with 2
gentle 90 degree bends, 2 90 degree elbows, and a 45 degree elbow.
btw, the take off from the cwt is level with the take off to the hot tank
(tut tut?).
Hot supply: 15mm pipe taken from the 22m hot "down service" supply pipe
taken off just below the up-to-overflow-into-the-cold-tank T (ie. the 22mm
has already done a gentle 90 degree bend plus 2 Tees); total run of 15mm
pipe is ~3m with 1 gentle 90 degree, 2 90 degree elbows, and a 45 degree
elbow.


Flow rate out of shower valve (~2m below bottom of CWT) is 14 l/min.

Adding the shower hose reduces flow to 8.5 l/min (level with the shower
valve). Shower hose internal bore is around 12mm.

Adding the shower head reduces flow to 7.5 l/min (again level with shower
valve). This would be ok, but the final straw is...

Raising the shower head 0.8m so I can stand under it reduces flow to 4.5
l/min. ARGH!





Assuming those figures are par for the course, sniff, then a google of the
archive suggests my options are...

1 - improve flow, ie. fit 22mm pipe, and take the hot supply direct from
the tank (surrey flange).
Can anyone quantify how much difference these are likely to make?
My guess is not very much, but then I'm working on marginal amounts here
anyway...

2 - improve pressure, ie.
2.1 - fit a pump
2.2 raise the height of the CWT.

The maximum the CWT can be raised is ~60cm - lowering the handset by this
suggests a flow of 6 l/min, not enough on its own, and a heap of effort.

I'm reluctant to go the pump route due to likely noise, and it's overkill
in that it'll deliver more water than is needed. It may require 22mm
piping too (and definitely the surrey flange).

In summary, I'd like to avoid a pump, but am I stuffed?

rgds all,
graham.

graham wrote:

Flow rate out of shower valve (~2m below bottom of CWT) is 14 l/min.

Its the distance to the top of the water in the tank that counts
(assuming the cold main can refill it fast enough)

Adding the shower hose reduces flow to 8.5 l/min (level with the shower
valve). Shower hose internal bore is around 12mm.

Adding the shower head reduces flow to 7.5 l/min (again level with
shower valve). This would be ok, but the final straw is...

Raising the shower head 0.8m so I can stand under it reduces flow to 4.5
l/min. ARGH!

That is the killer - you are probably only leaving 4' of head.

1 - improve flow, ie. fit 22mm pipe, and take the hot supply direct from
the tank (surrey flange).
Can anyone quantify how much difference these are likely to make?
My guess is not very much, but then I'm working on marginal amounts here
anyway...

With the existing valve - probably not much.

You can get some shower valves that have 22mm inlets and are designed
for low pressure operation (I have fitted a Trevi one like this once -
similar head to your situation, and it was not exciting, but certainly
acceptable)

Just changing the shower head for one with less flow resistance may help.

2 - improve pressure, ie.
2.1 - fit a pump
2.2 raise the height of the CWT.

2.3 if you have cold mains nearby use a venturi shower

The maximum the CWT can be raised is ~60cm - lowering the handset by
this suggests a flow of 6 l/min, not enough on its own, and a heap of
effort.

I'm reluctant to go the pump route due to likely noise, and it's
overkill in that it'll deliver more water than is needed. It may require
22mm piping too (and definitely the surrey flange).

Not necessarily...

I did one for SWMBO's aunt a while back where she had a similar setup,
and wanted an improvement in the shower, but did not seek the being
flayed alive sort of shower experience. I fitted a Stuart Turner 1.4 bar
pump and it perked it up nicely. Not being hugely powerful also meant
that it ran fine from the normal hot water outlet of the tank without
need to fit a Surrey flange (I was anticipating needing to make one up,
but in the end there was no need). It had 15mm connections (although I
piped some of it in 22mm since the same pipes also ran on to the bath).
Sat on a rubber mount with some wooden boxing over in the airing
cupboard you could not really hear it over the shower anyway.

In summary, I'd like to avoid a pump, but am I stuffed?

There are other options, but don't dismiss a pump out of hand.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 13, 4:13 am, John Rumm wrote:
I'm reluctant to go the pump route due to likely noise, and it's
overkill in that it'll deliver more water than is needed. It may require
22mm piping too (and definitely the surrey flange).

Not necessarily...

I did one for SWMBO's aunt a while back where she had a similar setup,
and wanted an improvement in the shower, but did not seek the being
flayed alive sort of shower experience. I fitted a Stuart Turner 1.4 bar
pump and it perked it up nicely. Not being hugely powerful also meant
that it ran fine from the normal hot water outlet of the tank without
need to fit a Surrey flange (I was anticipating needing to make one up,
but in the end there was no need). It had 15mm connections (although I
piped some of it in 22mm since the same pipes also ran on to the bath).
Sat on a rubber mount with some wooden boxing over in the airing
cupboard you could not really hear it over the shower anyway.


That matches my experience. Once I'm in the shower I can't hear the
pump and the noise escaping from the airing cupboard doesn't wake
anyone.

MBQ

wrote:

On Sep 13, 4:13 am, John Rumm wrote:

I did one for SWMBO's aunt a while back where she had a similar setup,
and wanted an improvement in the shower, but did not seek the being
flayed alive sort of shower experience. I fitted a Stuart Turner 1.4 bar
pump and it perked it up nicely. Not being hugely powerful also meant
that it ran fine from the normal hot water outlet of the tank without
need to fit a Surrey flange (I was anticipating needing to make one up,
but in the end there was no need). It had 15mm connections (although I
piped some of it in 22mm since the same pipes also ran on to the bath).
Sat on a rubber mount with some wooden boxing over in the airing
cupboard you could not really hear it over the shower anyway.


That matches my experience. Once I'm in the shower I can't hear the
pump and the noise escaping from the airing cupboard doesn't wake
anyone.

MBQ



Thanks for the comments guys.
I'll probably go the pump route, so a couple of follow-up questions:

noise - John, you mention "some wooden boxing over" - is there not an
issue with the pump getting too hot?

plumbing - plastic pipe might be quicker to plumb though they probably
entail pipe inserts which could impede flow. Any comments?

wiring - is a spur off the RCD protected mains ring acceptable (along
with fused isolating switch), or does it need its own feed from the
consumer unit?

makes - stuart turner & watermill seem to do similarly spec'd products -
are these both reasonable (I'm thinking the "cheap" end of the ranges
(eg. http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/default.aspx?page=350 or
http://www.watermillshowers.co.uk/redirect.htm).

thanks again
g.

On 2007-09-13 21:41:51 +0100, graham said:

wrote:

On Sep 13, 4:13 am, John Rumm wrote:

I did one for SWMBO's aunt a while back where she had a similar setup,
and wanted an improvement in the shower, but did not seek the being
flayed alive sort of shower experience. I fitted a Stuart Turner 1.4 bar
pump and it perked it up nicely. Not being hugely powerful also meant
that it ran fine from the normal hot water outlet of the tank without
need to fit a Surrey flange (I was anticipating needing to make one up,
but in the end there was no need). It had 15mm connections (although I
piped some of it in 22mm since the same pipes also ran on to the bath).
Sat on a rubber mount with some wooden boxing over in the airing
cupboard you could not really hear it over the shower anyway.


That matches my experience. Once I'm in the shower I can't hear the
pump and the noise escaping from the airing cupboard doesn't wake
anyone.

MBQ



Thanks for the comments guys.
I'll probably go the pump route, so a couple of follow-up questions:

noise - John, you mention "some wooden boxing over" - is there not an
issue with the pump getting too hot?

Have a look at the Stuart Turner Monsoon 1.8bar product. There is a
version of this in a padded package which reduces noise a great deal


plumbing - plastic pipe might be quicker to plumb though they probably
entail pipe inserts which could impede flow. Any comments?

Try using 22mm if the runs are long.


wiring - is a spur off the RCD protected mains ring acceptable (along
with fused isolating switch), or does it need its own feed from the
consumer unit?

Yes that's fine subject to the switch not being in an unacceptable zone
of a bathroom.



makes - stuart turner & watermill seem to do similarly spec'd products
- are these both reasonable (I'm thinking the "cheap" end of the ranges
(eg. http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/default.aspx?page=350 or
http://www.watermillshowers.co.uk/redirect.htm).

I would choose Stuart Turner without question. The products are solid
and reliable and they have excellent spares and service backups.
Components like seals etc. which tend to be required eventually can be
obtained as part of a service kit for about £10.

Watermill is less well known in this market space but are now owned by
Grundfos who have a good reputation.

I'd still choose Stuart Turner.

graham wrote:

noise - John, you mention "some wooden boxing over" - is there not an
issue with the pump getting too hot?

This was mainly for aesthetics, and to stop the pump getting smothered
in clothes in the airing cupboard. So the box had a top, left and front.
The right being the wall beside, and the back was open. It was also
generously sized to accommodate the loop over of the pipes above the
pump and its flexy tails. So no danger of it getting too hot. (they are
also water cooled!)

plumbing - plastic pipe might be quicker to plumb though they probably
entail pipe inserts which could impede flow. Any comments?

The size of the restriction is only a part of the equation, the length
of it counts as well. So a couple of inserts will make very little
difference. The pump also has push fit fittings, so can take plastic
pipe directly.

wiring - is a spur off the RCD protected mains ring acceptable (along
with fused isolating switch), or does it need its own feed from the
consumer unit?

No, a fused spur is fine (total load is only a few hundred watt).

makes - stuart turner & watermill seem to do similarly spec'd products -
are these both reasonable (I'm thinking the "cheap" end of the ranges

Stuart turner would get my vote.

(eg. http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/default.aspx?page=350 or

Yup, that was what I used.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/