hi - just about to embark on a loft conversion whihc will include a
new shower unit in the loft (so 2nd floor). I have a bathroom and
shower on the gnd floor. I've been thinking about going with a
megaflow to avoid pumps etc. but i'm not sure what else I need to
consider. Will I need to increase the mains water pressure? by getting
a larger feed (25mm) to my boundary? is it necessary for a megaflow?
can someone tell me the difference between direct and indirect
megaflow? where does the megaflow tank need to be situated in my
setup? and is it a good idea in the first place? !!

thanks

On 2007-09-10 10:05:11 +0100, said:

hi - just about to embark on a loft conversion whihc will include a
new shower unit in the loft (so 2nd floor). I have a bathroom and
shower on the gnd floor. I've been thinking about going with a
megaflow to avoid pumps etc. but i'm not sure what else I need to
consider. Will I need to increase the mains water pressure?

That would be difficult. The only way to increase pressure is with a
pump and accumulating vessel.


by getting
a larger feed (25mm) to my boundary?

That might increase flow rate. It won't increase pressure.

You can measure the flow rate at the kitchen tap by timing filling of a
bucket. Generally at least 20litres/min should be regarded as
required for a pressurised HW system.

is it necessary for a megaflow?




can someone tell me the difference between direct and indirect
megaflow? where does the megaflow tank need to be situated in my
setup? and is it a good idea in the first place? !!



It may be, subject to floor loading restrictions and water flow availability.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:05:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

hi - just about to embark on a loft conversion whihc will include a
new shower unit in the loft (so 2nd floor). I have a bathroom and
shower on the gnd floor.

Do you have a header tank for the heating system? Where is it
located? How is the loft conversion to be heated?

Does the existing hot water cylinder have enough capacity to supply
an additional bathroom? How rapidly does it recover? Are you unhappy
with the existing hot water system?

I've been thinking about going with a
megaflow to avoid pumps etc. but i'm not sure what else I need to
consider.

Do you want high pressure hot (and presumably cold) water
everywhere? If so, why?

Could you perhaps use a thermal store, which provides high pressure
hot water without the expense of annual inspections on the pressure
vessel?

Have you considered a Venturi shower?

Have you considered the life-cycle cost of a pressurised hot water
cylinder (annual inspection and all) with the life-cycle cost of a
pump? Both will provide much the same shower.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:05:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

hi - just about to embark on a loft conversion whihc will include a
new shower unit in the loft (so 2nd floor). I have a bathroom and
shower on the gnd floor.

Do you have a header tank for the heating system? Where is it
located? How is the loft conversion to be heated?

Does the existing hot water cylinder have enough capacity to supply
an additional bathroom? How rapidly does it recover? Are you unhappy
with the existing hot water system?

I've been thinking about going with a
megaflow to avoid pumps etc. but i'm not sure what else I need to
consider.

Do you want high pressure hot (and presumably cold) water
everywhere? If so, why?

Could you perhaps use a thermal store, which provides high pressure
hot water without the expense of annual inspections on the pressure
vessel?

Have you considered a Venturi shower?

Have you considered the life-cycle cost of a pressurised hot water
cylinder (annual inspection and all) with the life-cycle cost of a
pump? Both will provide much the same shower.

Good points.

On 10 Sep, 10:37, David Hansen
wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:05:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

hi - just about to embark on a loft conversion whihc will include a
new shower unit in the loft (so 2nd floor). I have a bathroom and
shower on the gnd floor.

Do you have a header tank for the heating system? Where is it
located? How is the loft conversion to be heated?

Does the existing hot water cylinder have enough capacity to supply
an additional bathroom? How rapidly does it recover? Are you unhappy
with the existing hot water system?

I've been thinking about going with a
megaflow to avoid pumps etc. but i'm not sure what else I need to
consider.

Do you want high pressure hot (and presumably cold) water
everywhere? If so, why?

Could you perhaps use a thermal store, which provides high pressure
hot water without the expense of annual inspections on the pressure
vessel?

Have you considered a Venturi shower?

Have you considered the life-cycle cost of a pressurised hot water
cylinder (annual inspection and all) with the life-cycle cost of a
pump? Both will provide much the same shower.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I have now been in two properties, one a commercial one (independent
hostel) where there were Megaflows. Neither owner knew that annual
inspections were necessary; is this government mandatory or a
requirement of the house insurers ?

Rob

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:05:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-


Could you perhaps use a thermal store, which provides high pressure
hot water without the expense of annual inspections on the pressure
vessel?

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation. Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of competence.

Jim A

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:05:11 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-


Could you perhaps use a thermal store, which provides high pressure
hot water without the expense of annual inspections on the pressure
vessel?

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation. Perhaps you are alluding to
testing of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of
competence.

All makers say so. Testing of the pressure devices is specialist job and not
one for the average householder.

Have a burst or explosion, and the checks were not done then see if an
insurer will pay out. They will tell you to refer to the makers
instructions. Much the same as a car. If you don't have it serviced and the
wheel drops off they don't want to know.

all - I am a complete novice at this so please excuse any
descriptions:

I have a hot water cylinder on the first floor above which there is a
cold water tank.
The loft is above this as will be the shower room.

I want to avoid the noise of a pump and ensure enough water to both
showers. I guess flow rate is not that important then? We will want
gas central heating in the loft and currently have a potterton gas
boiler on the gnd floor.

All I am looking for is a good supply of hot water with no-one being
scolded when they turn on the cold water somewhere else. I don't need
a fast flow but thought it was necessary for getting water to the
loft.

The hot water cylinder is not really big enough for a bath and a
shower and it does take quite a while - over an hour- to have enough
hot water to do anything with after a bath.

If I was to take everything out and start from scratch what solution
would be recommended? it's an average Victorian semi .
Thx again

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:03:09 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation.

An annual insurance inspection, as would be done on say a high
pressure boiler, is not a requirement.

Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of competence.

It is not permitted for householders to do this inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 03:53:49 -0700 someone who may be robgraham
wrote this:-

I have now been in two properties, one a commercial one (independent
hostel) where there were Megaflows. Neither owner knew that annual
inspections were necessary; is this government mandatory

Yes it is.

or a requirement of the house insurers ?

They will undoubtedly wish not to pay out money if the necessary
inspections have not been done.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 04:27:01 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

I have a hot water cylinder on the first floor above which there is a
cold water tank.

Is this mounted directly on top of the cylinder, or in the loft?

The loft is above this as will be the shower room.

I want to avoid the noise of a pump

Have you considered the noise mains pressure water tends to make?
This noise won't just be when showering.

and ensure enough water to both showers.

Adopting a particular design of hot water cylinder does not affect
how much hot water it holds compared to your current one. An
"unvented" cylinder, such as the Megaflow, is not magic and it will
not hold more hot water then an equivalent volume unvented one.

I guess flow rate is not that important then?

Flow rate is not too important, even for two showers. The question
is whether the system can deal with the kitchen tap, bath and one
shower in operation at the same time.

We will want
gas central heating in the loft and currently have a potterton gas
boiler on the gnd floor.

Is there a header tank for your existing heating system?

All I am looking for is a good supply of hot water

The size of the hot water storage cylinder is the key to achieving
this.

with no-one being
scolded when they turn on the cold water somewhere else.

Thermostatic fittings minimise these risks.

The hot water cylinder is not really big enough for a bath and a
shower and it does take quite a while - over an hour- to have enough
hot water to do anything with after a bath.

Sounds like a rather old cylinder, probably somewhat furred up. Do
you live in a hard water area?

If I was to take everything out and start from scratch what solution
would be recommended? it's an average Victorian semi .

Including taking your existing radiators out?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:03:09 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation.

An annual insurance inspection, as would be done on say a high
pressure boiler, is not a requirement.

Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of competence.

It is not permitted for householders to do this inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper.

Care to quote the statute?

Jim A

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 04:27:01 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

I have a hot water cylinder on the first floor above which there is a
cold water tank.

Is this mounted directly on top of the cylinder, or in the loft?

The loft is above this as will be the shower room.

I want to avoid the noise of a pump

Have you considered the noise mains
pressure water tends to make?
This noise won't just be when showering.

The noise is far, far less than a power shower pump. Pipework properly
installed with eliminate/reduce mains water noises.

If I was to take everything out
and start from scratch what solution
would be recommended? it's an
average Victorian semi .

Including taking your existing radiators out?

I would get the main upratwed if need be and install:

1. A heat bank with a simple boiler. Smart CH pump and TRVs on all rads.
2. An complete one-box package of say: ACV HeatMaster, Atmos Multi, Gledhill
Gulfstream - these can have smart pumps installed for CH. Or a Viesssmann
333, which heats the CH directly, so slightly different than the prior
boilers.
3. Two Atmos Intercombis (the most simple and reliable boilers on the
market). One doing upstairs CH one down. One dowing one bathroom, one the
lother, combine the outlets for baths to give a flowrate of 24 litres/min.

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:03:09 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation.

An annual insurance inspection, as would be done on say a high
pressure boiler, is not a requirement.

Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of
competence.

It is not permitted for householders to do this inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper.

Care to quote the statute?

G3.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:03:09 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation.

An annual insurance inspection, as would be done on say a high
pressure boiler, is not a requirement.

Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of
competence.

It is not permitted for householders to do this inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper.

Care to quote the statute?

G3.
sorry that's not a statute

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:03:09 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation.

An annual insurance inspection, as would be done on say a high
pressure boiler, is not a requirement.

Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of
competence.

It is not permitted for householders to do this inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper.

Care to quote the statute?

G3.

sorry that's not a statute

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
. uk...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:03:09 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

An "annual inspection of the pressure vessel" is not (read my words) a
requirement in a domestic installation.

An annual insurance inspection, as would be done on say a high
pressure boiler, is not a requirement.

Perhaps you are alluding to testing
of the safety devices which can be undertaken with a degree of
competence.

It is not permitted for householders to do this inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper.

Care to quote the statute?

G3.

sorry that's not a statute

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

Good link but only relevant to the installation work. My point was about
maintenance. Not been answered yet.

Jim A

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:28:02 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

Care to quote the statute?

If you think I have the time to grind through the pile of crap that
is the Scottish Building Standards Agency web site you are mistaken.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:37:29 +0100 someone who may be "Doctor
Drivel" wrote this:-

Have you considered the noise mains
pressure water tends to make?
This noise won't just be when showering.

The noise is far, far less than a power shower pump. Pipework properly
installed with eliminate/reduce mains water noises.

That depends on the particular circumstances.

The noise from pumps can be eliminated/reduced with careful design
too.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:28:02 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

Care to quote the statute?

If you think I have the time to grind through the pile of crap that
is the Scottish Building Standards Agency web site you are mistaken.

But there is no need to do *that*. These are relevent to installation work,
not maintenance work.

Your point was that "It is not permitted for householders to do this
inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper". I suggested otherwise and my point
has not yet been countered, though at this time your compatriate DD is
beavering away at least trying to defend what was *your* point.

Jim A

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:28:02 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

Care to quote the statute?

If you think I have the time to grind through the pile of crap that
is the Scottish Building Standards Agency web site you are mistaken.

But there is no need to do *that*. These are relevent to installation
work,
not maintenance work.

Your point was that "It is not permitted for householders to do this
inspection, unless
they hold the relevant bits of paper". I suggested otherwise and my
point has not yet been countered, though at this time your compatriate DD
is beavering away at least trying to defend what was *your* point.

You will find that installation and "maintenance of unvented cylinders and
associated controls is only by G3 certified people.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:16:42 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

If you think I have the time to grind through the pile of crap that
is the Scottish Building Standards Agency web site you are mistaken.

But there is no need to do *that*. These are relevent to installation work,
not maintenance work.

Incorrect. There is much in them which is to do with maintaining
services.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:16:42 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

If you think I have the time to grind through the pile of crap that
is the Scottish Building Standards Agency web site you are mistaken.

But there is no need to do *that*. These are relevent to installation
work,
not maintenance work.

Incorrect. There is much in them which is to do with maintaining
services.

and in relation to routine maintenance of installed domestic unvented
cylinders which chapter?

Jim A