In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

On 2007-07-28 06:16:15 +0100, "Keith Dunbar" said:

In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

Do you think that the places where this is could have been fairly wet
at some time in the past, but yet was reasonably well ventilated?

If so, it's possible that the damage is a consequence of some form of
wet rot having taken place. The break down in the wood is partly via
the action of the fungus itself and partly from various weevils and
assorted friends who then come along for dinner. I saw this in a
house where the DPC had been bridged and the ground floor joists were
into pockets in the brickwork just above it; yet the floor void was
well ventilated. There was no real sign of any fungus itself in terms
of visible strands etc. but there doesn't have to be.

You can look for cellar fungus as a reference for pictures. The main
point is that the wood breaks up into flakes. This is very different
to some other fungal timber infestations such as dry rot and similar
where there needs to be the right conditions of temperature, humidity,
lack of ventilation. The result with most of these species of fungus
is more of an angular, cubic breakdown of the wood.

There's nothing that you can really do mechanically about wood where
this has happened. Complete remedial action is normally to eliminate
the source of moisture and then to replace the damaged sections. If
you can't really do this, then it may be best not to actually do
anything provided that the place isn't about to fall down.

If you think that there is a general, slow decay going on, you can
inhibit it with a timber treatment. In effect, this would be similar
to treating exterior softwood, which otherwise does tend to decay with
wet rot (e.g. fence posts).
Solignum colourless preserver (solvent based) would be a good choice
for this. However, if the problem has been happening for several
centuries, it doesn't seem likely that it will reach terminal level in
the next couple of years.

The other thing that you could look at is sources of damp. Are there
any things that can be done to fix that, for example.

On 28 Jul, 06:16, "Keith Dunbar" wrote:
In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

periodproperty forum:
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...wforum.php?f=1


NT

Keith Dunbar wrote:
In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith



How far can you push a bradawl into it? Any sign of moisture when you
take it out?
You can impregnate porous material with various resins but it needs to
be bone dry. Chicken and egg

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-28 06:16:15 +0100, "Keith Dunbar" said:

In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there
is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be
actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time
or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any
wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate
it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just
wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

Do you think that the places where this is could have been fairly wet at
some time in the past, but yet was reasonably well ventilated?

If so, it's possible that the damage is a consequence of some form of wet
rot having taken place. The break down in the wood is partly via the
action of the fungus itself and partly from various weevils and assorted
friends who then come along for dinner. I saw this in a house where
the DPC had been bridged and the ground floor joists were into pockets in
the brickwork just above it; yet the floor void was well ventilated.
There was no real sign of any fungus itself in terms of visible strands
etc. but there doesn't have to be.

You can look for cellar fungus as a reference for pictures. The main
point is that the wood breaks up into flakes. This is very different to
some other fungal timber infestations such as dry rot and similar where
there needs to be the right conditions of temperature, humidity, lack of
ventilation. The result with most of these species of fungus is more
of an angular, cubic breakdown of the wood.

There's nothing that you can really do mechanically about wood where this
has happened. Complete remedial action is normally to eliminate the
source of moisture and then to replace the damaged sections. If you can't
really do this, then it may be best not to actually do anything provided
that the place isn't about to fall down.

If you think that there is a general, slow decay going on, you can inhibit
it with a timber treatment. In effect, this would be similar to treating
exterior softwood, which otherwise does tend to decay with wet rot (e.g.
fence posts).
Solignum colourless preserver (solvent based) would be a good choice for
this. However, if the problem has been happening for several
centuries, it doesn't seem likely that it will reach terminal level in the
next couple of years.

The other thing that you could look at is sources of damp. Are there any
things that can be done to fix that, for example.


Thank you Andy for that very helpful summary. I think you're right that's
it's wet rot, but it's odd in that it's quite some distance off the ground
where the vertical planks rest on a horizontal piece of wood resting on a
raised brick foundation (so not that old then) with, clearly, no damp proof
course. What I have just noticed looking on the other side is that it is
completely covered by a board that is lying against the wall - presumably
this could be preventing the circulation of air on that side - which I
assume with this sort of structure could be essential.

Keith

On 28 Jul, 06:16, "Keith Dunbar" wrote:
In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

Dear Keith
If the wood is soft it will have suffered SOME form of degradation.
The most probable in your described conditions is wet rot eg C puteana
or possibly C cerebella. IF it is not now currently wet it will be
historical and almost certainly dead.
It could also be one of the following:
Softrot stainers (unlikely but possible if it was very wet for some
time)
Chemical defibration (but that would not flake but would look more
like lint)
White rot (but that would not show the sort of syptoms to which you
refer.)
It could most remotely have suffered from some form of bacterial
attack but that normally only affect the pit membranes and after long
immersion in water do that is so improbably as to be worthy of
ignoring
Other categories of degratdation are mechanical damage and UV both of
which are unlikely.
Contrary to a later post the biological mechanism for dry and wet rot
is identical both being a brown rot fugus - attacking cellulose and
leaving the lignin and both leave virturally identical cuboidal
cracking - just look at the two photographs on BRE Digest 299.
Well what to do?
1) determine the moisture content of the timber. Is it wet? (not
likely from description) IF so - how wet? if VERY wet it is worth
applying a chemical treatment and the obvious one if very wet (eg
greater than 50% mc up to say a max of several hundred %) use a boron
based pellet or crushed powder and let the water do the work of
incorporating the active ingredient. DO NOT USE AN ORGANIC SOLVENT-
BASED PRODUCT!
2) IF it is only slightly wet eg 20 to 30% mc it is not worth using
any chemical to control DECAY - Isolate the timbers with a dpc or by
other means and ventilate. If Isolation is not feaible or pracical
then use a mayonnaise paste only as a stop gap and last resort
If you are a domestic user you may not be allowed to buy this as it is
not likely to be classifed as a A group chemical (for amateurs) in the
Pesticides register
If you can classify yourself as a professional and can use a P
chemical then you will need to be competent to do a COSHH assessment
3) if it is dry you need do nothing and to apply any chemical could
lead you (in theory) to be at the wrong end of criminal proceedings
for unnecessary use of a pesticide - and quite right too!
That deal with fungi
If there is insect attack (there was reference to such in other posts)
all you need to do is to put some lining paper over the timber ASAP
(flight season ends in September) and monitor the lining paper for new
holes. Absent any holes in 3 years you can be sure that there is not
Common Furniture Beetle (aka woodworm)
As it is a 1650 house the chances are that it is hardwood so there MAY
be DWB (death watch) which is very difficult to eridicate and may
emerge 7 years on
Are there any such holes?
Chances are what you are seeing is perishable sapwood and the
heartwood is sound as a bell
Do not be tempted to "defrass" it is aesthically unacceptable to any
lover of a good timber frame.
Consider the merits of the literature in the SPAB
Best wishes
Chris
Chris

"Chris George" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 28 Jul, 06:16, "Keith Dunbar" wrote:
In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there
is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be
actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time
or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any
wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate
it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just
wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

Dear Keith
If the wood is soft it will have suffered SOME form of degradation.
The most probable in your described conditions is wet rot eg C puteana
or possibly C cerebella. IF it is not now currently wet it will be
historical and almost certainly dead.
It could also be one of the following:
Softrot stainers (unlikely but possible if it was very wet for some
time)
Chemical defibration (but that would not flake but would look more
like lint)
White rot (but that would not show the sort of syptoms to which you
refer.)
It could most remotely have suffered from some form of bacterial
attack but that normally only affect the pit membranes and after long
immersion in water do that is so improbably as to be worthy of
ignoring
Other categories of degratdation are mechanical damage and UV both of
which are unlikely.
Contrary to a later post the biological mechanism for dry and wet rot
is identical both being a brown rot fugus - attacking cellulose and
leaving the lignin and both leave virturally identical cuboidal
cracking - just look at the two photographs on BRE Digest 299.
Well what to do?
1) determine the moisture content of the timber. Is it wet? (not
likely from description) IF so - how wet? if VERY wet it is worth
applying a chemical treatment and the obvious one if very wet (eg
greater than 50% mc up to say a max of several hundred %) use a boron
based pellet or crushed powder and let the water do the work of
incorporating the active ingredient. DO NOT USE AN ORGANIC SOLVENT-
BASED PRODUCT!
2) IF it is only slightly wet eg 20 to 30% mc it is not worth using
any chemical to control DECAY - Isolate the timbers with a dpc or by
other means and ventilate. If Isolation is not feaible or pracical
then use a mayonnaise paste only as a stop gap and last resort
If you are a domestic user you may not be allowed to buy this as it is
not likely to be classifed as a A group chemical (for amateurs) in the
Pesticides register
If you can classify yourself as a professional and can use a P
chemical then you will need to be competent to do a COSHH assessment
3) if it is dry you need do nothing and to apply any chemical could
lead you (in theory) to be at the wrong end of criminal proceedings
for unnecessary use of a pesticide - and quite right too!
That deal with fungi
If there is insect attack (there was reference to such in other posts)
all you need to do is to put some lining paper over the timber ASAP
(flight season ends in September) and monitor the lining paper for new
holes. Absent any holes in 3 years you can be sure that there is not
Common Furniture Beetle (aka woodworm)
As it is a 1650 house the chances are that it is hardwood so there MAY
be DWB (death watch) which is very difficult to eridicate and may
emerge 7 years on
Are there any such holes?
Chances are what you are seeing is perishable sapwood and the
heartwood is sound as a bell
Do not be tempted to "defrass" it is aesthically unacceptable to any
lover of a good timber frame.
Consider the merits of the literature in the SPAB
Best wishes
Chris

Many thanks for that very comprehensive reply. But ...

"mayonnaise paste"?
"BRE"?
"defrass"?
"SPAB"?

Have now removed the stored wood which was preventing ventilation on one
side of this wall so hopefully it will all dry out and presumably require no
further action. No evidence of woodworm or DWB.

Thanks again,

Keith

On Jul 29, 4:21 pm, "Keith Dunbar" wrote:
"Chris George" wrote in message

ups.com...



On 28 Jul, 06:16, "Keith Dunbar" wrote:
In the cartlodge attached to our new home (1650's Norfolk cottage) there
is
some (presumably very old) wood forming the wall between the different
sections of the cartlodge, which at the bottom where it rests on a wooden
crosspiece has become quite soft and flaky. It doesn't seem to be
actually
rotten as such - but it is definitely softening. I don't have the time
or
money to sort it out at the moment, but I was wondering if there is any
wood
treatment I could apply that might stabilise the situation. I appreciate
it
may well have been like this for a very long time already, but I just
wonder
if there is anything I can do.

TIA

Keith

Dear Keith
If the wood is soft it will have suffered SOME form of degradation.
The most probable in your described conditions is wet rot eg C puteana
or possibly C cerebella. IF it is not now currently wet it will be
historical and almost certainly dead.
It could also be one of the following:
Softrot stainers (unlikely but possible if it was very wet for some
time)
Chemical defibration (but that would not flake but would look more
like lint)
White rot (but that would not show the sort of syptoms to which you
refer.)
It could most remotely have suffered from some form of bacterial
attack but that normally only affect the pit membranes and after long
immersion in water do that is so improbably as to be worthy of
ignoring
Other categories of degratdation are mechanical damage and UV both of
which are unlikely.
Contrary to a later post the biological mechanism for dry and wet rot
is identical both being a brown rot fugus - attacking cellulose and
leaving the lignin and both leave virturally identical cuboidal
cracking - just look at the two photographs on BRE Digest 299.
Well what to do?
1) determine the moisture content of the timber. Is it wet? (not
likely from description) IF so - how wet? if VERY wet it is worth
applying a chemical treatment and the obvious one if very wet (eg
greater than 50% mc up to say a max of several hundred %) use a boron
based pellet or crushed powder and let the water do the work of
incorporating the active ingredient. DO NOT USE AN ORGANIC SOLVENT-
BASED PRODUCT!
2) IF it is only slightly wet eg 20 to 30% mc it is not worth using
any chemical to control DECAY - Isolate the timbers with a dpc or by
other means and ventilate. If Isolation is not feaible or pracical
then use a mayonnaise paste only as a stop gap and last resort
If you are a domestic user you may not be allowed to buy this as it is
not likely to be classifed as a A group chemical (for amateurs) in the
Pesticides register
If you can classify yourself as a professional and can use a P
chemical then you will need to be competent to do a COSHH assessment
3) if it is dry you need do nothing and to apply any chemical could
lead you (in theory) to be at the wrong end of criminal proceedings
for unnecessary use of a pesticide - and quite right too!
That deal with fungi
If there is insect attack (there was reference to such in other posts)
all you need to do is to put some lining paper over the timber ASAP
(flight season ends in September) and monitor the lining paper for new
holes. Absent any holes in 3 years you can be sure that there is not
Common Furniture Beetle (aka woodworm)
As it is a 1650 house the chances are that it is hardwood so there MAY
be DWB (death watch) which is very difficult to eridicate and may
emerge 7 years on
Are there any such holes?
Chances are what you are seeing is perishable sapwood and the
heartwood is sound as a bell
Do not be tempted to "defrass" it is aesthically unacceptable to any
lover of a good timber frame.
Consider the merits of the literature in the SPAB
Best wishes
Chris

Many thanks for that very comprehensive reply. But ...

"mayonnaise paste"?
Haven't a clue. Sounds like it ISN'T an emulsion of olive oil and egg
yolk though!

"BRE"?
Buildings Research Establishment.

"defrass"?
Presumably, "remove the soft timber until you get to the sound
heartwood".

"SPAB"?
Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings - you probably ought
to have a look at some of their info if you have 17th century house.

The other people that might be able to offer some advice is your local
council conservation officer. "I'm not doing /anything/ until you've
had a look" will at least earn you some brownie points.

On the other hand:
Have now removed the stored wood which was preventing ventilation on one
side of this wall so hopefully it will all dry out and presumably require no
further action. No evidence of woodworm or DWB.

Sounds like that's the solution. Check back in a year or so and see
if the problem has got noticably worse.