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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Flat Pack Assembly
Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not
difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Decided to check out what they charge the customer. One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#2
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Flat Pack Assembly
I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering
me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Including travelling time? |
#3
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Flat Pack Assembly
Hi Dave
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman" wrote: Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Decided to check out what they charge the customer. One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? You'd be surprised.... There's a great 'distance' between those that diy - and those who don't have a clue. When I started on the local craft markets earlier this year, there were a number of other sellers who enquired 'Where did you buy your stand' - and whose eyes widened in amazement when I said 'I made it - from wood !' (It's nothing fancy - a couple of trestles, folding table-top from ply, wingnuts & rising butt hinges to hold a couple of frames up at side & rear.....) I suppose it depends on what sort of 'life experiences' you've had - one of my earliest memories is of 'helping' my late Dad to build a garage & 3-bed b&b extension to out house in Cornwall - I must have been all of 4 years old. Never had enough money to 'get a man in' - so done most of my home improvements myself.... However - there seem to be quite a few people for whom screwing a few bits of wood together is simply something that they don't do..... and I guess that's where the market for a 'flat-pack assembly technician' comes in. Surely there comes a point where it would have been cheaper to buy whatever it was ready-assembled ?? Funny old world g Adrian |
#4
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Flat Pack Assembly
Surely there comes a point where it would have been cheaper to buy whatever it was ready-assembled ?? It would greatly increase transportation costs - and the furniture might then fail to fall apart in a timely fashion. |
#5
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Flat Pack Assembly
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
mused: Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Decided to check out what they charge the customer. One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! And you're allowing for the travel etc... on that as well are you? Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? I think most people would pay you to build something and expect you to be there for an hour or 2, which added to the price of the furniture in the first place would probably still be less than the alternative which would be commissioning someone to build something built in. -- Regards, Stuart. |
#6
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Flat Pack Assembly
On 2007-07-25 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said: Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Decided to check out what they charge the customer. One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! They may be *charging* that, but are they actually getting it? In other words, are they then offering deals or being open to negotiation (not that most people would think to do that).? That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! Is that across a mix of jobs for you though? I would expect that assembling flat pack jobs are generally quite short (1-2 hrs max) and then travel to next job so the pricing is to account for that. Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? No it's not, which is why it isn't the reason. Think of the range of jobs that you do. Apart from the projects like decks which can really be separated into a different category, I suspect that the reasons people come to you fall into three main buckets: - Customer is time poor - Customer thinks that job is beyond them - Customer can't get a single-trade person to look at the job Now think about assembling flat pack and ask your typical customers whether they would tackle it. I suspect that a fair proportion would. A single-trade person probably wouldn't be interested unless he were desperate. So this leaves........ Mr and Mrs Time Poor. I suspect that they are less price sensitive than the others. All of which takes us back to a thread from a couple of weeks back where the question of does one charge what the customer will stand? For different reasons, IIRC, most people said yes to that. Perhaps your flat pack asssembly prices could tolerate a little elevation...... |
#7
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Flat Pack Assembly
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. If they operate in Leicester, then you can pass my details on - any inside work would be a bonus for the winter. Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
#8
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Flat Pack Assembly
In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Why does anyone pay to have something done? o Can't do it themselves (at all, or well enough). o Don't have time to do it themselves. o Cheaper not to (earn more per hour doing something else than it costs per hour to have someone else do it). -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#9
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Flat Pack Assembly
A.Lee wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote: Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. If they operate in Leicester, then you can pass my details on - any inside work would be a bonus for the winter. Sent it direct, can you let me know that it arrived? -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#10
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Flat Pack Assembly
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-25 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman" said: That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! Is that across a mix of jobs for you though? I would expect that assembling flat pack jobs are generally quite short (1-2 hrs max) and then travel to next job so the pricing is to account for that. Thats my full day rate, shorter jobs are at a higher rate http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/charges.htm So 1 hour would be £45, 2 hours £75 etc Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? No it's not, which is why it isn't the reason. Think of the range of jobs that you do. Apart from the projects like decks which can really be separated into a different category, I suspect that the reasons people come to you fall into three main buckets: - Customer is time poor Certainly true, the Medway Towns are commuter land for London. - Customer thinks that job is beyond them It surprises me that people regard flat pack as difficult. One customer said he would rather have a tooth extracted without anasthetic than assemble it. Another said his idea of hell was assembling flatpack for eternity. - Customer can't get a single-trade person to look at the job They cant get most of them to return a call :-) Now think about assembling flat pack and ask your typical customers whether they would tackle it. I suspect that a fair proportion would. A single-trade person probably wouldn't be interested unless he were desperate. So this leaves........ Mr and Mrs Time Poor. I suspect that they are less price sensitive than the others. All of which takes us back to a thread from a couple of weeks back where the question of does one charge what the customer will stand? For different reasons, IIRC, most people said yes to that. Perhaps your flat pack asssembly prices could tolerate a little elevation...... I'm thinking my prices in general could tolerate that. -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#11
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Flat Pack Assembly
The Medway Handyman wrote:
A.Lee wrote: The Medway Handyman wrote: Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. If they operate in Leicester, then you can pass my details on - any inside work would be a bonus for the winter. Sent it direct, can you let me know that it arrived? Cheers. Got it. I've just got a deal with a local property management company - I'd dropped a leaflet in to them a couple of weeks ago, and got a call last Wednesday.They needed quotes for fitting a new toilet pan in one of their rented properties, and a new sink in their office. They were amazed that I had arrived the same day to get the details, then even more amazed when I said I'd go straight away to see what the toilet job needed. They were telling me that they had rung up a number of plumbers, many of whom had asked for cash upfront to give a quote, another had agreed to do the job, but had never turned up. I did the quotes that night, dropped them in Thursday morning, got a call at 9:15am Thrusday, "yes, do them", so out on Saturday to do the toilet - 2 hours from leaving to getting back home, including a trip to screwfix to get a new seat, and then at their office at 9am Monday to do the sink. They were well pleased. Now, apparently, they will be ringing me first to price up any jobs. And for once, I was making decent money - though I have given them 12mths warranty, but I must have still been a lot cheaper than any other quote. Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
#12
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Flat Pack Assembly
In message , Lurch
writes One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! And you're allowing for the travel etc... on that as well are you? Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? I think most people would pay you to build something and expect you to be there for an hour or 2, which added to the price of the furniture in the first place would probably still be less than the alternative which would be commissioning someone to build something built in. One problem which is bound to occur, is ... Who pays for your time lost because you can't assemble something because bits are missing or damaged ? -- geoff |
#13
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Flat Pack Assembly
A.Lee wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote: A.Lee wrote: The Medway Handyman wrote: Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. If they operate in Leicester, then you can pass my details on - any inside work would be a bonus for the winter. Sent it direct, can you let me know that it arrived? Cheers. Got it. I've just got a deal with a local property management company - I'd dropped a leaflet in to them a couple of weeks ago, and got a call last Wednesday.They needed quotes for fitting a new toilet pan in one of their rented properties, and a new sink in their office. They were amazed that I had arrived the same day to get the details, then even more amazed when I said I'd go straight away to see what the toilet job needed. They were telling me that they had rung up a number of plumbers, many of whom had asked for cash upfront to give a quote, another had agreed to do the job, but had never turned up. I did the quotes that night, dropped them in Thursday morning, got a call at 9:15am Thrusday, "yes, do them", so out on Saturday to do the toilet - 2 hours from leaving to getting back home, including a trip to screwfix to get a new seat, and then at their office at 9am Monday to do the sink. They were well pleased. Now, apparently, they will be ringing me first to price up any jobs. And for once, I was making decent money - though I have given them 12mths warranty, but I must have still been a lot cheaper than any other quote. Alan. Letting agents can be a good source of work, but of the original 6 I've worked for I've kicked 4 into touch. Typical problems; they want everything done yesterday, they keep you waiting for your money, they expect too much - typical example, luxury flat with a leaking shower tray. Stripped out silicone, re siliconed. Small area of plaster damaged by leak, still wet. Noted on invoice that I couldn't fill it till it dried. Only charged for time on site. Returned 2 weeks later to fill plaster, charged for half an hour. Invoice queried "shouldn't that have been included in the original price"? Can be a good source of work though, just be aware. -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#14
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Flat Pack Assembly
On 2007-07-25 21:17:58 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said: Andy Hall wrote: Perhaps your flat pack asssembly prices could tolerate a little elevation...... I'm thinking my prices in general could tolerate that. I think so. Remember that you can always come down on price. Going up is much harder because then you have to justify it in some way. |
#15
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Flat Pack Assembly
raden wrote:
One problem which is bound to occur, is ... Who pays for your time lost because you can't assemble something because bits are missing or damaged ? Only happened once to me actually. Chest of 8 drawers with one drawer front badly damaged. IKEA replaced the entire unit. I went back & changed the front & customer was happy to pay. Very rare IME to find bits missing, they seem to have got very good at that. I've attracted a fair amount of surplus fittings due to over supply. For example, in a unit that is available with either hinged or sliding doors they include the hinges with the sliding option - therefor I gain 16 hinges which can be used for all sorts of things. -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#16
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Flat Pack Assembly
In message , The Medway Handyman
writes raden wrote: One problem which is bound to occur, is ... Who pays for your time lost because you can't assemble something because bits are missing or damaged ? Only happened once to me actually. Chest of 8 drawers with one drawer front badly damaged. IKEA replaced the entire unit. I went back & changed the front & customer was happy to pay. Very rare IME to find bits missing, they seem to have got very good at that. I've attracted a fair amount of surplus fittings due to over supply. For example, in a unit that is available with either hinged or sliding doors they include the hinges with the sliding option - therefor I gain 16 hinges which can be used for all sorts of things. Well, if that's your experience, OK I just pointed it out as some (e.g. me) would beg to differ -- geoff |
#17
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Flat Pack Assembly
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Only if you know you have to read the destructions in the page order 1, 3, 14, 7, 2, 9, 21 etc. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#18
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Flat Pack Assembly
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Radio 2 was talking about girl guides yesterday afternoon. I only caught about 1 word in 2 because I was welding up a kitchen range grate, but seemingly flat pack assembly is now a subject taught to them. Presumably fire lighting is off the agenda due to the safety Nazis and fear of parents suing. Julian. |
#19
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Flat Pack Assembly
On 2007-07-26 08:00:12 +0100, "Julian" said:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Radio 2 was talking about girl guides yesterday afternoon. I only caught about 1 word in 2 because I was welding up a kitchen range grate, but seemingly flat pack assembly is now a subject taught to them. Presumably fire lighting is off the agenda due to the safety Nazis and fear of parents suing. Julian. I think it was Radio 4, unless both channels were carrying it. At any rate, yes you're right, that was the item. I wasn't clear whether they were actually teaching flat pack assembly or just raised that as an example of what 21st century Girl Guides are looking to learn to equip them for life. Practising safe sex was another example. They didn't get into whether or not there was going to be a badge for this..... |
#20
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Flat Pack Assembly
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Decided to check out what they charge the customer. One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? You cost £20 an hour. My time costs £50 an hour, before overheads. I happen to quite like assembling flat pack furniture, but I don't like gardening, so guess what I pay to have done. Colin Bignell |
#21
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Flat Pack Assembly
wrote in message ups.com... Surely there comes a point where it would have been cheaper to buy whatever it was ready-assembled ?? It would greatly increase transportation costs - and the furniture might then fail to fall apart in a timely fashion. Flat pack doesn't fall apart if you put glue in the correct places. Having said that I bought ready assembled when I did my kitchen as it was no more expensive than flat pack. |
#22
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Flat Pack Assembly
"Peter Parry" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman" wrote: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Only if you know you have to read the destructions in the page order 1, 3, 14, 7, 2, 9, 21 etc. Instructions? What are they for? |
#23
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Flat Pack Assembly
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , "The Medway Handyman" writes: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Why does anyone pay to have something done? o Can't do it themselves (at all, or well enough). o Don't have time to do it themselves. Or a bit of both, because the job gets faster with experience. My wife has now decided to *get* the experience with basic hand tools that she'd missed earlier on in life, so flat-pack assembly has been taken entirely out of my hands. All I'm allowed to do is provide consultancy, and then I'm sent away... oh dear, isn't that awful... She is slow but meticulous, but sure enough she's getting better and faster, and has now moved on to fitting loo seats as well. (Don't worry, Dave, we're 400 miles away :-) -- Ian White |
#24
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Flat Pack Assembly
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:05:48 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote: Instructions? What are they for? As the saying goes - "if all else fails - read the instructions, if that also fails - follow them." Usually they are necessary if only to discover why you have three brackets of an odd shape, 26 screws and a piece of wood with "front" written on it in your pile of leftovers after is finished. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#25
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Flat Pack Assembly
In article , Ian White
writes Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , "The Medway Handyman" writes: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Why does anyone pay to have something done? o Can't do it themselves (at all, or well enough). o Don't have time to do it themselves. Or a bit of both, because the job gets faster with experience. My wife has now decided to *get* the experience with basic hand tools that she'd missed earlier on in life, so flat-pack assembly has been taken entirely out of my hands. All I'm allowed to do is provide consultancy, and then I'm sent away... oh dear, isn't that awful... Umm... shouldn't she go and join the girl guides, they seem to have a new angle on flat pack furniture.... She is slow but meticulous, but sure enough she's getting better and faster, and has now moved on to fitting loo seats as well. (Don't worry, Dave, we're 400 miles away :-) -- Tony Sayer |
#26
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Flat Pack Assembly
On 2007-07-26 11:32:22 +0100, Owain said:
Andy Hall wrote: I think it was Radio 4, unless both channels were carrying it. At any rate, yes you're right, that was the item. I wasn't clear whether they were actually teaching flat pack assembly or just raised that as an example of what 21st century Girl Guides are looking to learn to equip them for life. The National Union of Amalgamated Flat-Pack Assemblers would be turning in their grave... National Association of Flat-Pack Fixers or NAFF for short...... Practising safe sex was another example. They didn't get into whether or not there was going to be a badge for this..... Hopefully not one with a pin. Owain |
#27
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Flat Pack Assembly
On 26 Jul, 08:30, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname
here.uk.com wrote: I happen to quite like assembling flat pack furniture, but I don't like gardening, so guess what I pay to have done. Colin Bignell I'm glad I'm not the only one. Our house is fully Ikea'd, and I love putting together their stuff - its like Lego for Dads. I know its not hard, but it certainly beats any of the other household chores that SWMBO might pass my way. Matt |
#28
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Flat Pack Assembly
tony sayer wrote:
My wife has now decided to *get* the experience with basic hand tools that she'd missed earlier on in life, so flat-pack assembly has been taken entirely out of my hands. All I'm allowed to do is provide consultancy, and then I'm sent away... oh dear, isn't that awful... Umm... shouldn't she go and join the girl guides, they seem to have a new angle on flat pack furniture.... Well, it makes a lot of sense. Let them spit curses at B&Q, IKEA and all their creations, for a change, while us blokes are pressing dried flowers. -- Ian White |
#29
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#30
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , "The Medway Handyman" writes: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Why does anyone pay to have something done? o Can't do it themselves (at all, or well enough). o Don't have time to do it themselves. o Cheaper not to (earn more per hour doing something else than it costs per hour to have someone else do it). You missed out my usual option, though I do a lot of DIY in the house. I can't be arsed to get my tools out :-) The new central heating boiler was one and the second was the new 1 1/2 bathroom improvement. I just sloping shouldered it and left others to do it. I did my own kitchen about 10 years ago and I remember spending about half a day working out the waste pipe work under the double sink and the dishwasher out flow. The installation of lots of extra sockets, moving the gas hob location all went to plan and were very easy. As was the rest of the job. Over the years, I have realized that some jobs do not prove a problem, but the odd one or two can have some very nasty surprises. Or am I getting too old for this sort of work? Probably :-( Dave |
#31
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Flat Pack Assembly
Peter Parry wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:31:18 +0100, "The Medway Handyman" wrote: Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? Only if you know you have to read the destructions in the page order 1, 3, 14, 7, 2, 9, 21 etc. That sounds like a video recorder I bought quite a few years ago. It was two weeks after I bought it, that I could write instructions down for my wife to program it to record something. I am a licensed radio amateur and of my two main radios, one is menu driven and the other has either a switch, button or control knob to alter the settings. Guess which is the easier to drive? Dave |
#32
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Flat Pack Assembly
On 2007-07-26 14:57:02 +0100, Stuart Noble
said: wrote: On 26 Jul, 08:30, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com wrote: I happen to quite like assembling flat pack furniture, but I don't like gardening, so guess what I pay to have done. Colin Bignell I'm glad I'm not the only one. Our house is fully Ikea'd, and I love putting together their stuff - its like Lego for Dads. I know its not hard, but it certainly beats any of the other household chores that SWMBO might pass my way. Matt Wardrobes often need two pairs of hands to assemble, so a pair of girl guides would have the edge over a bloke on his own. More detail please. |
#33
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Flat Pack Assembly
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-26 14:57:02 +0100, Stuart Noble said: wrote: On 26 Jul, 08:30, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com wrote: I happen to quite like assembling flat pack furniture, but I don't like gardening, so guess what I pay to have done. Colin Bignell I'm glad I'm not the only one. Our house is fully Ikea'd, and I love putting together their stuff - its like Lego for Dads. I know its not hard, but it certainly beats any of the other household chores that SWMBO might pass my way. Matt Wardrobes often need two pairs of hands to assemble, so a pair of girl guides would have the edge over a bloke on his own. More detail please. You want to get me locked up? |
#34
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Flat Pack Assembly
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... Flat pack assembly is a fairly common job for me. Easy money really, not difficult at all. I've been approached by a few national flat pack assembly companies offering me work - at around £22 an hour - and not really local, which I have declined. Decided to check out what they charge the customer. One company charges £45 for the first hour & £30 an hour afterwards, two others charges £30 for the first hour, then £45 an hour afterwards +VAT! That works out at between £250 & £400 for an eight hour day compared to my £160! Why would anyone pay that sort of money to have flat pack assembled? Hardly rocket science is it? If they work in the Leeds area you could pass them on to me john(at)ledgerj(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk Cheers John |
#35
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Flat Pack Assembly
John wrote:
If they work in the Leeds area you could pass them on to me john(at)ledgerj(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk http://www.flatpackamigos.co.uk/ http://www.flatpackconstruction.co.uk/ http://www.screwdriver-flatpack.co.uk/ Google for flatpack assembly & you will find loads. -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
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