One of the guys on my CG2381 training today was from BG. He says he was
working in a house where he had to get a floorboard up for something,
rested one arm on the floor while reaching under it with the other and got
a belt. Turned out someone (else) had put a floor nail through a cable
which was run too close to the surface and he'd leaned on the live nail
head. Being a conscientious chap he reported it to his bosses, who
promptly sacked him for gross misconduct! Apparently for not having
turned off the power to the house at the CU while working - which all gas
fitters always do, of course. Then, mindful of the safety of their
customer, his managers phoned up and were verbally assured that the
problem had been corrected, and closed the book on it.

Only after many weeks at home (unable to get another job with a 'gross
misconduct' dismissal on his records) and with the help of his union and
after the involvement of the HSE (who apparently were less than impressed
with BG's handling of the incident) did he get his job back. They then
decided that he needed training in electrical matters hence his presence
on 2381.

I believe he is considering how - and with whom - his career might progress
once he has this ticket :-)

--
John Stumbles

Things don't like being anthropomorphised.

In article , John Stumbles
writes
One of the guys on my CG2381 training today was from BG. He says he was
working in a house where he had to get a floorboard up for something,
rested one arm on the floor while reaching under it with the other and got
a belt. Turned out someone (else) had put a floor nail through a cable
which was run too close to the surface and he'd leaned on the live nail
head. Being a conscientious chap he reported it to his bosses, who
promptly sacked him for gross misconduct! Apparently for not having
turned off the power to the house at the CU while working - which all gas
fitters always do, of course. Then, mindful of the safety of their
customer, his managers phoned up and were verbally assured that the
problem had been corrected, and closed the book on it.

Only after many weeks at home (unable to get another job with a 'gross
misconduct' dismissal on his records) and with the help of his union and
after the involvement of the HSE (who apparently were less than impressed
with BG's handling of the incident) did he get his job back. They then
decided that he needed training in electrical matters hence his presence
on 2381.

I believe he is considering how - and with whom - his career might progress
once he has this ticket :-)


They sound the like the same shower of ****e that manage EDF energy:-(((
--
Tony Sayer

On 2007-07-17 20:05:23 +0100, John Stumbles said:

One of the guys on my CG2381 training today was from BG. He says he was
working in a house where he had to get a floorboard up for something,
rested one arm on the floor while reaching under it with the other and got
a belt. Turned out someone (else) had put a floor nail through a cable
which was run too close to the surface and he'd leaned on the live nail
head. Being a conscientious chap he reported it to his bosses, who
promptly sacked him for gross misconduct! Apparently for not having
turned off the power to the house at the CU while working - which all gas
fitters always do, of course. Then, mindful of the safety of their
customer, his managers phoned up and were verbally assured that the
problem had been corrected, and closed the book on it.

Only after many weeks at home (unable to get another job with a 'gross
misconduct' dismissal on his records) and with the help of his union and
after the involvement of the HSE (who apparently were less than impressed
with BG's handling of the incident) did he get his job back. They then
decided that he needed training in electrical matters hence his presence
on 2381.

I believe he is considering how - and with whom - his career might progress
once he has this ticket :-)

I'm shocked (as it were). Actually no I'm not. What a bunch of pillocks.

Still..... if it opens his eyes to a new, and I am sure more
profitable career path, they will have done him a favour.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:05:23 GMT, John Stumbles
mused:

One of the guys on my CG2381 training today was from BG. He says he was
working in a house where he had to get a floorboard up for something,
rested one arm on the floor while reaching under it with the other and got
a belt. Turned out someone (else) had put a floor nail through a cable
which was run too close to the surface and he'd leaned on the live nail
head.

Reminds me of a job my dad was doing once. He'd fed some 22mm copper
under a floor from the landing across a bedroom with just a trap at
each end. Further on in the job the floor in the middle had to come up
and underneath there were the 2 copper pipes he'd been waving about
under there, and 3 2.5's twisted together uninsulated in some fashion
or other which he'd somehow managed to avoid.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On 2007-07-18 01:11:19 +0100, Lurch said:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:05:23 GMT, John Stumbles
mused:

One of the guys on my CG2381 training today was from BG. He says he was
working in a house where he had to get a floorboard up for something,
rested one arm on the floor while reaching under it with the other and got
a belt. Turned out someone (else) had put a floor nail through a cable
which was run too close to the surface and he'd leaned on the live nail
head.

Reminds me of a job my dad was doing once. He'd fed some 22mm copper
under a floor from the landing across a bedroom with just a trap at
each end. Further on in the job the floor in the middle had to come up
and underneath there were the 2 copper pipes he'd been waving about
under there, and 3 2.5's twisted together uninsulated in some fashion
or other which he'd somehow managed to avoid.

Which does raise an interesting point. Presumably the insurance
policies for trade purposes that can be obtained directly or via
associations cover third party liability. However, do they cover the
tradesperson if he injures himself in some way for reasons as described
here or otherwise such that he can't work?

Otherwise, I suppose that he would be in the invidious position of
pursuing the customer for liability?

wrote in message ...

I then spotted a new shelf in the kitchen, just above the switch for the
bathroom light. It had been fitted that very morning, as I had been
obtaining
the loft insulation. How he had managed to drill through the live cable
without either electrocuting himself, or blowing the fuse is a mystery to
this day.

Insulated drill.. they are plastic these days

or

drilling the neutral core only.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:12:06 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Which does raise an interesting point. Presumably the insurance
policies for trade purposes that can be obtained directly or via
associations cover third party liability. However, do they cover the
tradesperson if he injures himself in some way for reasons as described
here or otherwise such that he can't work?

Mine doesn't: I have separate personal illness/accident insurance for
that.

Otherwise, I suppose that he would be in the invidious position of
pursuing the customer for liability?

From a hospital bed/wheelchair/beyond the grave ;-)


--
John Stumbles

Ohnosecond
Instant in time when you realise that you've just made a BIG mistake.
%

wrote:

I then spotted a new shelf in the kitchen, just above the switch for the
bathroom light. It had been fitted that very morning, as I had been
obtaining the loft insulation. How he had managed to drill through the
live cable without either electrocuting himself, or blowing the fuse is a
mystery to this day.

Standard invocation of Sod's Law.

A while ago I was adding an extra socket in my daughter's living room a few
feet above an existing one. No problem, I thought, just excavate and cut
back the cable above the socket, install the new one and run a new bit of
cable down the groove replacing the old. As I started chipping out the
plaster I was soon cursing because the cable ran diagonally. The previous
owner had put a picture hook in the wall "safely" well away from where the
cable should have run but it was heading ominously in the direction of the
hook. When my excavation reached the hook I found that the pin had been
hammered through the metal capping and the cable. This was a 1960's build
with 7/.029 cable, the pin had gone neatly through the live conductor with
3 strands one side and 4 the other. Fortunately nobody had ever received
even a tingle from the live hook which had been there for some years.

--
Mike Clarke

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
A while ago I was adding an extra socket in my daughter's living room a
few feet above an existing one. No problem, I thought, just excavate and
cut back the cable above the socket, install the new one and run a new
bit of cable down the groove replacing the old. As I started chipping
out the plaster I was soon cursing because the cable ran diagonally. The
previous owner had put a picture hook in the wall "safely" well away
from where the cable should have run but it was heading ominously in the
direction of the hook. When my excavation reached the hook I found that
the pin had been hammered through the metal capping and the cable. This
was a 1960's build with 7/.029 cable, the pin had gone neatly through
the live conductor with 3 strands one side and 4 the other. Fortunately
nobody had ever received even a tingle from the live hook which had been
there for some years.

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.

--
*How can I miss you if you won't go away?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:02:31 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
mused:

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
A while ago I was adding an extra socket in my daughter's living room a
few feet above an existing one. No problem, I thought, just excavate and
cut back the cable above the socket, install the new one and run a new
bit of cable down the groove replacing the old. As I started chipping
out the plaster I was soon cursing because the cable ran diagonally. The
previous owner had put a picture hook in the wall "safely" well away
from where the cable should have run but it was heading ominously in the
direction of the hook. When my excavation reached the hook I found that
the pin had been hammered through the metal capping and the cable. This
was a 1960's build with 7/.029 cable, the pin had gone neatly through
the live conductor with 3 strands one side and 4 the other. Fortunately
nobody had ever received even a tingle from the live hook which had been
there for some years.

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.

But to be fair, it wasn't there to protect the cable from picture hook
nails.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
A while ago I was adding an extra socket in my daughter's living room a
few feet above an existing one. No problem, I thought, just excavate and
cut back the cable above the socket, install the new one and run a new
bit of cable down the groove replacing the old. As I started chipping
out the plaster I was soon cursing because the cable ran diagonally. The
previous owner had put a picture hook in the wall "safely" well away
from where the cable should have run but it was heading ominously in the
direction of the hook. When my excavation reached the hook I found that
the pin had been hammered through the metal capping and the cable. This
was a 1960's build with 7/.029 cable, the pin had gone neatly through
the live conductor with 3 strands one side and 4 the other. Fortunately
nobody had ever received even a tingle from the live hook which had been
there for some years.

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.


And shielded cable would at least blow the fuse/breaker so you know
something was amiss. Wonder why that stuff hasn't caught on for domestic
use...

Tim

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:03:36 +0100 someone who may be Tim
Southerwood wrote this:-

And shielded cable would at least blow the fuse/breaker so you know
something was amiss. Wonder why that stuff hasn't caught on for domestic
use...

In theory.

I have a bitter memory of one of my staff putting a cable spike
through an 11kV cable, many moons ago. Not only was it energised,
but the spike did not operate the protective devices.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article , David Hansen
writes
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:03:36 +0100 someone who may be Tim
Southerwood wrote this:-

And shielded cable would at least blow the fuse/breaker so you know
something was amiss. Wonder why that stuff hasn't caught on for domestic
use...

In theory.

I have a bitter memory of one of my staff putting a cable spike
through an 11kV cable, many moons ago. Not only was it energised,
but the spike did not operate the protective devices.



Not the gun type device they use for making sure its deceased?......


--
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:03:36 +0100, Tim Southerwood
mused:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
A while ago I was adding an extra socket in my daughter's living room a
few feet above an existing one. No problem, I thought, just excavate and
cut back the cable above the socket, install the new one and run a new
bit of cable down the groove replacing the old. As I started chipping
out the plaster I was soon cursing because the cable ran diagonally. The
previous owner had put a picture hook in the wall "safely" well away
from where the cable should have run but it was heading ominously in the
direction of the hook. When my excavation reached the hook I found that
the pin had been hammered through the metal capping and the cable. This
was a 1960's build with 7/.029 cable, the pin had gone neatly through
the live conductor with 3 strands one side and 4 the other. Fortunately
nobody had ever received even a tingle from the live hook which had been
there for some years.

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.


And shielded cable would at least blow the fuse/breaker so you know
something was amiss. Wonder why that stuff hasn't caught on for domestic
use...

Cost.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

David Hansen wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:03:36 +0100 someone who may be Tim
Southerwood wrote this:-

And shielded cable would at least blow the fuse/breaker so you know
something was amiss. Wonder why that stuff hasn't caught on for domestic
use...

In theory.

I have a bitter memory of one of my staff putting a cable spike
through an 11kV cable, many moons ago. Not only was it energised,
but the spike did not operate the protective devices.



Yeah - there are caveats regarding the type of breaker used (type B required
on Lapp XL Shield IIRC). At least the nail would be earthed I suppose,
which is better than nothing.

Tim

wrote:

On 18 Jul, Lurch wrote:
Reminds me of a job my dad was doing once. He'd fed some 22mm copper
under a floor from the landing across a bedroom with just a trap at
each end. Further on in the job the floor in the middle had to come up
and underneath there were the 2 copper pipes he'd been waving about
under there, and 3 2.5's twisted together uninsulated in some fashion
or other which he'd somehow managed to avoid.

I then spotted a new shelf in the kitchen, just above the switch for the
bathroom light. It had been fitted that very morning, as I had been obtaining
the loft insulation. How he had managed to drill through the live cable
without either electrocuting himself, or blowing the fuse is a mystery to
this day.

A couple of years ago, my idiot lad was experimenting with my cordless
drill, and drilling through the floorboards in his bedroom (unbeknown to
me).
The RCD/Breaker for the outside spur tripped that night. Because I didnt
know he was drilling the floor, I never did find why it had tripped,
until I went to use the dryer which was on that spur - it wouldnt work,
and when I touched a metal part on it, I got a belt.
Still not seeing the obvious, i thought the dryer was knackered, but it
was soon clear something was amiss when the washer wouldnt work either.

A plug-in socket checker showed a earth fault, yet the breaker hadnt
tripped again, so after much thought, I decided to trace the cable back
to see where it was damaged.
And so I found the numerous drill holes, right above around 6 ring main
cables, but the only one damaged was the outside spur, which wasnt on a
ring.
The drill had gone through the earth, severing it, and had touched the
live, pushing that into the socket end of the earth, so earth was now
live on that spur. I wasnt very happy.
And he swore he hadnt put the holes there!

How did the RCD not trip again though - I definitely got at least one
shock off the dryer, though both appliances are well insulated from the
floor, so no leakage to ground.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On 2007-07-18 18:56:44 +0100, (A.Lee) said:

A couple of years ago, my idiot lad was experimenting with my cordless
drill, and drilling through the floorboards in his bedroom (unbeknown to
me).
The RCD/Breaker for the outside spur tripped that night. Because I didnt
know he was drilling the floor, I never did find why it had tripped,
until I went to use the dryer which was on that spur - it wouldnt work,
and when I touched a metal part on it, I got a belt.


Did he?

How old was he at the time and was he bigger than you?

Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-07-18 18:56:44 +0100, (A.Lee) said:

A couple of years ago, my idiot lad was experimenting with my cordless
drill, and drilling through the floorboards in his bedroom (unbeknown to
me).
The RCD/Breaker for the outside spur tripped that night. Because I didnt
know he was drilling the floor, I never did find why it had tripped,
until I went to use the dryer which was on that spur - it wouldnt work,
and when I touched a metal part on it, I got a belt.


Did he?
How old was he at the time and was he bigger than you?

15, and he is still smaller than me.
I dont think he is the brightest spark, as it was quite obvious who had
drilled the holes, yet he said it was me when I put the carpet down!
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

"A.Lee" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-07-18 18:56:44 +0100, (A.Lee) said:

A couple of years ago, my idiot lad was experimenting with my
cordless
drill, and drilling through the floorboards in his bedroom
(unbeknown to
me).
The RCD/Breaker for the outside spur tripped that night. Because
I didnt
know he was drilling the floor, I never did find why it had
tripped,
until I went to use the dryer which was on that spur - it wouldnt
work,
and when I touched a metal part on it, I got a belt.


Did he?
How old was he at the time and was he bigger than you?

15, and he is still smaller than me.
I dont think he is the brightest spark,

ROFLO, perhaps he was attempting to become a bright *spark* -
literally?!

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.

Proper conduit isn't going to stop a hardened steel masonry pin.

On 2007-07-18 21:12:26 +0100, (A.Lee) said:

Andy Hall wrote:

On 2007-07-18 18:56:44 +0100, (A.Lee) said:

A couple of years ago, my idiot lad was experimenting with my cordless
drill, and drilling through the floorboards in his bedroom (unbeknown to
me).
The RCD/Breaker for the outside spur tripped that night. Because I didnt
know he was drilling the floor, I never did find why it had tripped,
until I went to use the dryer which was on that spur - it wouldnt work,
and when I touched a metal part on it, I got a belt.


Did he?
How old was he at the time and was he bigger than you?

15, and he is still smaller than me.
I dont think he is the brightest spark, as it was quite obvious who had
drilled the holes, yet he said it was me when I put the carpet down!
Alan.

Oh dear.......

Scholarship for the University of Life needed I think....

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:19:23 +0100, "dennis@home"
mused:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.

Proper conduit isn't going to stop a hardened steel masonry pin.

Assuming proper conduit means heavy gauge galavnised then it might not
stop it but you'd know you were hammering through it.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:19:23 +0100, "dennis@home"
mused:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

What this shows is that many types of 'protection' are simply no proof
against a picture hook nail - and this must be one of the most common
things to hammer into a wall. *Proper* conduit would stop it, though.

Proper conduit isn't going to stop a hardened steel masonry pin.

Assuming proper conduit means heavy gauge galavnised then it might not
stop it but you'd know you were hammering through it.

You might notice it was different assuming you had driven in hardened steel
pins before.

The message
from "dennis@home" contains these words:

Proper conduit isn't going to stop a hardened steel masonry pin.

Assuming proper conduit means heavy gauge galavnised then it might not
stop it but you'd know you were hammering through it.

You might notice it was different assuming you had driven in hardened steel
pins before.

The question is have you ever tried to drive a hardened steel pin into
thick walled galvanised steel conduit (or even the old fashioned plain
steel variety). I don't think you would have a hope in hell of doing
anything other than shattering the pin, which is easy enough to do even
with hard brick.

--
Roger Chapman