Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
Hi all.
Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Thoughts: If I put a zone in to supply heat for these rooms its a lot more pipework and electrics to try and hide. If I'm doing these two rooms why not all of them. If I do all of them am I going to lose heat when the upstairs is off and downstairs is leaching up? What else? Layout is... Front is facing south, rear north. 1 mile from the sea. Front door opens directly to the living room. Ground floor split into just two rooms: - a living room to the front - a dining room / kitchen to the rear Open staircase from the living room to a landing. Off the landing at the back is the bathroom and bedroom 2, (my 5yo sons.) Off the landing to the front is bedroom 1 (ours) and bedroom 3 (used as a study.) Radiator with no TRV in the lounge as the controls are here by the stairs. Radiators with TRV's in all other rooms. Heated towel rail in bathroom. Thanks for any eyeopeners. Mike. [1] Worcester Bosch Greenstar R35HE Plus. What a mouthful. As a part of putting in a new kitchen, losing an airing cupboard and a wall and associated HW tank and plumbing. |
#2
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:14:24 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote: Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Thoughts: Well I didn't "zone" and bitterly regret it, so go figure from that. Do any work you think will improve the system. You will think of plenty when it's too late. |
#3
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
"EricP" wrote in message ... On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:14:24 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote: Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Thoughts: Well I didn't "zone" and bitterly regret it, so go figure from that. Same here. Feeling rather silly heating the whole house when upstairs is empty. Also, we find it quite difficult to avoid overheating the kids bedrooms in the evening when they are already in bed and we are still downstairs (bedrooms were added much later and are much better insulated). Do any work you think will improve the system. You will think of plenty when it's too late. |
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike Barnard wrote: Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. With a properly designed and balanced system (with radiators of an appropriate size in each room/space to balance the heat loss - and with the lockshields adjusted to give the same temperature differential across each radiator) there's no reason why one room should be significantly hotter or colder than any other. Zoning comes into its own if you want to heat different parts of the house at different times. Otherwise there's not all that much point. If it's easy to do, do it anyway - because it gives slightly better control over different areas (with a room stat for each area) - but if it's a pain, plumbing-wise, don't bother. -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
#5
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Mike Barnard wrote: Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. With a properly designed and balanced system (with radiators of an appropriate size in each room/space to balance the heat loss - and with the lockshields adjusted to give the same temperature differential across each radiator) there's no reason why one room should be significantly hotter or colder than any other. There speaks a man of theory..with respect Roger, in the real world, in my north rooms when the north wind blows, so does your theory. MUCH more heatloss from them then... Zoning comes into its own if you want to heat different parts of the house at different times. Otherwise there's not all that much point. If it's easy to do, do it anyway - because it gives slightly better control over different areas (with a room stat for each area) - but if it's a pain, plumbing-wise, don't bother. If I had my time again I'd zone every single room. With a motorised valve, and run a ****load of cables back to the timer and pumps etc. We have a lot of rooms we don't use all the time, and it would be far more economical to simply flick a switch and have them go to 'frost stat' settings when not in use. |
#6
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: If I had my time again I'd zone every single room. With a motorised valve, and run a ****load of cables back to the timer and pumps etc. We have a lot of rooms we don't use all the time, and it would be far more economical to simply flick a switch and have them go to 'frost stat' settings when not in use. It would certainly be nice to have an S++++ system, with a programmable stat in every room - so as to be able to heat each room only when needed. You could probably do it without too much plumbing by using (don't know the correct description) things like TRVs with little heaters in them to turn individual rads on and off by remote control. Would need a lot of wiring though, and I don't know whether these things have secondary contacts which close when the valve is open - like a proper 2-port zone valve. Such a system would be a nightmare to programme though unless your room usage followed a very regular pattern. Even then, you'd have to tell each individual stat about things like going on holiday for X days. Really needs to be programmable from a single point - with the ability to apply global settings to all stats in one go - but I'm not sure how to go about that. I don't really want to run a dedicated PC *just* the operate the heating! -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
#7
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:46:29 +0100, "Roger Mills"
mused: In an earlier contribution to this discussion, The Natural Philosopher wrote: If I had my time again I'd zone every single room. With a motorised valve, and run a ****load of cables back to the timer and pumps etc. We have a lot of rooms we don't use all the time, and it would be far more economical to simply flick a switch and have them go to 'frost stat' settings when not in use. It would certainly be nice to have an S++++ system, with a programmable stat in every room - so as to be able to heat each room only when needed. You could probably do it without too much plumbing by using (don't know the correct description) things like TRVs with little heaters in them to turn individual rads on and off by remote control. Would need a lot of wiring though, and I don't know whether these things have secondary contacts which close when the valve is open - like a proper 2-port zone valve. You can get mini valves that can be fitted to each rad. Not exactly sure where you would source the as I've never looked tbh. Such a system would be a nightmare to programme though unless your room usage followed a very regular pattern. Even then, you'd have to tell each individual stat about things like going on holiday for X days. Really needs to be programmable from a single point - with the ability to apply global settings to all stats in one go - but I'm not sure how to go about that. I don't really want to run a dedicated PC *just* the operate the heating! You can get commercial heating controls that could do all that with relative ease, and mostly low voltage for sensors in the rooms rather than programers. -- Regards, Stuart. |
#8
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:49:10 +0100, Lurch wrote:
You can get mini valves that can be fitted to each rad. Not exactly sure where you would source the as I've never looked tbh. Honeywell does a system with some sort of motorised rad valves (bulky and look sh1t IMNSHO). I don't know how they control it all. Some moons ago I adapted TRVs by glueing PCB-mounting resistors onto the sensing elements so that by applying 12V to the resistor the valve would turn off. I planned to control it all by some custom controller, but never got the Tuits to make it happen :-( -- John Stumbles Fundamentalist agnostic |
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On 2007-06-27 19:49:10 +0100, Lurch said:
You can get mini valves that can be fitted to each rad. Not exactly sure where you would source the as I've never looked tbh. Sauter make them. There are two basic types, both intended to sit on a TRV valve base in place of the normal manual head. - Thermal drive e.g. AXT 111. This is basically a commercial version of John Stumbles' idea. They work reasonably well if one is happy with on and off control - fully open or fully closed. I tried to make one do proportional control and partly open the valve, but it wasn't all that successful - very non linear and variation between two units, so would have to be individually calibrated. However, they are about the same size as a TRV head - Motor drive e.g. AXM 117S. These have a positioner and can be controlled by a DC voltage of 0-10v. They seem to be consistent as well. The motor body isw a bit larger but not obtrusive if the overhanging piece is pointed back towards the wall. |
#10
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Jun 27, 7:46 pm, "Roger Mills" wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, The Natural Philosopher wrote: If I had my time again I'd zone every single room. With a motorised valve, and run a ****load of cables back to the timer and pumps etc. We have a lot of rooms we don't use all the time, and it would be far more economical to simply flick a switch and have them go to 'frost stat' settings when not in use. It would certainly be nice to have an S++++ system, with a programmable stat in every room - so as to be able to heat each room only when needed. You could probably do it without too much plumbing by using (don't know the correct description) things like TRVs with little heaters in them to turn individual rads on and off by remote control. Would need a lot of wiring though, and I don't know whether these things have secondary contacts which close when the valve is open - like a proper 2-port zone valve. Such a system would be a nightmare to programme though unless your room usage followed a very regular pattern. Even then, you'd have to tell each individual stat about things like going on holiday for X days. Really needs to be programmable from a single point - with the ability to apply global settings to all stats in one go - but I'm not sure how to go about that. I don't really want to run a dedicated PC *just* the operate the heating! -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! I'm looking at doing exactly that in a project - using actuator valves and individual room stats. It's not that hard - an actuator on every radiator instead of a TRV. Each one links to a thermostat in the room and all the stats link down to a wiring box. I'll then use a central controller from http://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/ Heatmiser_MC__Colour_TouchPad-p-16143.html (their stats look good too, but I'll use different actuators. The ones for under floor heating work - they fit onto a TRV body) Looks like an ideal system. It's not that cheap, but the plumbing is done as a single zone, so there is a saving there, and the wiring is simple enough. Can be done wirelessly, but that puts the price up. A |
#11
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:46:29 +0100 someone who may be "Roger Mills"
wrote this:- It would certainly be nice to have an S++++ system, with a programmable stat in every room - so as to be able to heat each room only when needed. You could probably do it without too much plumbing by using (don't know the correct description) things like TRVs with little heaters in them to turn individual rads on and off by remote control. Would need a lot of wiring though, and I don't know whether these things have secondary contacts which close when the valve is open - like a proper 2-port zone valve. Depending on the arrangement of the house and occupancy one might be able to do almost the same with three zones. Public rooms, bedrooms and rooms which are on whenever either or both of the first two is on. For each of the first two there is a programmer and valve. Other rooms have thermostatic valves. The on and off times for each zone would involve the bedrooms being on first and last thing. The public rooms would be on in the evening, but go off before the bedrooms. Precise details would depend on occupancy. Rooms which were not in use, some bedrooms and a dining room for example, would be set back via the thermostatic valve. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#12
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, The Natural Philosopher wrote: If I had my time again I'd zone every single room. With a motorised valve, and run a ****load of cables back to the timer and pumps etc. We have a lot of rooms we don't use all the time, and it would be far more economical to simply flick a switch and have them go to 'frost stat' settings when not in use. It would certainly be nice to have an S++++ system, with a programmable stat in every room - so as to be able to heat each room only when needed. You could probably do it without too much plumbing by using (don't know the correct description) things like TRVs with little heaters in them to turn individual rads on and off by remote control. Would need a lot of wiring though, and I don't know whether these things have secondary contacts which close when the valve is open - like a proper 2-port zone valve. Such a system would be a nightmare to programme though unless your room usage followed a very regular pattern. Even then, you'd have to tell each individual stat about things like going on holiday for X days. Really needs to be programmable from a single point - with the ability to apply global settings to all stats in one go - but I'm not sure how to go about that. I don't really want to run a dedicated PC *just* the operate the heating! No need to program anything. Just go into a room, switch it ON, forget timers by and large, and if its too cold on comes the heating. You just 'wire OR' the motorised valves..(connect em in parallel) |
#13
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Roger Mills wrote: Such a system would be a nightmare to programme though unless your room usage followed a very regular pattern. Even then, you'd have to tell each individual stat about things like going on holiday for X days. Really needs to be programmable from a single point - with the ability to apply global settings to all stats in one go - but I'm not sure how to go about that. I don't really want to run a dedicated PC *just* the operate the heating! No need to program anything. Just go into a room, switch it ON, forget timers by and large, and if its too cold on comes the heating. You just 'wire OR' the motorised valves..(connect em in parallel) OK - so when you go on holiday for a fortnight in winter, how do you tell it just to provide frost protection until the day *before* your return, and *then* revert to the normal cycle in order to ensure that you return to a warm house? I can easily do that with my (single heating zone) system, controlled by a CM67 programmable thermostat. -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
#14
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
Mike Barnard wrote:
Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. .... snipped I re-did our heating a while ago and split it into 3 zones: downstairs, upstairs (less bathrooms), bathrooms+airing_cupboard+workshop. There were a number of people saying it was a waste of effort because of the open staircase. In practise it's been great. If I'm working at home during the day I have the downstairs heating on and the upstairs stays cold. The only regret is that I didn't add a fourth zone for just the office. Dave |
#15
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
NoSpam wrote:
I re-did our heating a while ago and split it into 3 zones: downstairs, upstairs (less bathrooms), bathrooms+airing_cupboard+workshop. There were a number of people saying it was a waste of effort because of the open staircase. In practise it's been great. If I'm working at home during the day I have the downstairs heating on and the upstairs stays cold. The only regret is that I didn't add a fourth zone for just the office. My office has so many computers in it, plus a PABX and a dist amp for TV, and canners/printers/hubs and routers..that it stays toasty warm whatever the weather. I agree that the more zones the better, frankly. Energy costs are rising and it is starting to be a lot easier to justify the initial outlay. Dave |
#16
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
Mike Barnard wrote:
Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Thoughts: If I put a zone in to supply heat for these rooms its a lot more pipework and electrics to try and hide. If I'm doing these two rooms why not all of them. If I do all of them am I going to lose heat when the upstairs is off and downstairs is leaching up? What else? Layout is... Front is facing south, rear north. 1 mile from the sea. Front door opens directly to the living room. Ground floor split into just two rooms: - a living room to the front - a dining room / kitchen to the rear Open staircase from the living room to a landing. Off the landing at the back is the bathroom and bedroom 2, (my 5yo sons.) Off the landing to the front is bedroom 1 (ours) and bedroom 3 (used as a study.) Radiator with no TRV in the lounge as the controls are here by the stairs. Radiators with TRV's in all other rooms. Heated towel rail in bathroom. Thanks for any eyeopeners. Mike. Mike. Its a contstant dilemma.. Ny feelings are as follows. First of all Radio stats are not THAT expensive and save a lot of wiring, and TRV's are even cheaper. What might be worth doing is adding - say - trv's to everything, and plumb in a bypass loop, and then put a radio stat in the coldest room so that at the least, the heating would stay on till that one was warm..you could simply parallel the output of the existing stat and the radio stat. That is the minimum of plumbing/wiring work: Ideally stats everywhere feeding zone valves all wired back to the boiler is what you want, but in practice its a hard way to retrofit stuff The problem with the system I have described is when e.g. the radio stat is set to a higher temp than the TRVs in that room..perhaps the answer is to not have TRV's in that room at all..but then how to turn that room down? I don;t think there is a perfect answer..you will have to juggle the complexities yourself [1] Worcester Bosch Greenstar R35HE Plus. What a mouthful. As a part of putting in a new kitchen, losing an airing cupboard and a wall and associated HW tank and plumbing. |
#17
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
Mike Barnard wrote:
The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. One simple solution would be to change the stat for a programmable wireless one and situate it in the cold bedroom. Balance the system so that all is well when there are no external influences such as cold north winds etc. Fit TRVs everwhere else. That way the stat will call for heat until the coldest rooms are heated, and the TRVs will prevent the warmer rooms overheating. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#18
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:14:24 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:
Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Thoughts: If I put a zone in to supply heat for these rooms its a lot more pipework and electrics to try and hide. If I'm doing these two rooms why not all of them. If I do all of them am I going to lose heat when the upstairs is off and downstairs is leaching up? What else? Layout is... Front is facing south, rear north. 1 mile from the sea. Front door opens directly to the living room. Ground floor split into just two rooms: - a living room to the front - a dining room / kitchen to the rear Open staircase from the living room to a landing. Off the landing at the back is the bathroom and bedroom 2, (my 5yo sons.) Off the landing to the front is bedroom 1 (ours) and bedroom 3 (used as a study.) Radiator with no TRV in the lounge as the controls are here by the stairs. Radiators with TRV's in all other rooms. Heated towel rail in bathroom. [1] Worcester Bosch Greenstar R35HE Plus. What a mouthful. As a part of putting in a new kitchen, losing an airing cupboard and a wall and associated HW tank and plumbing. It's probably not worth zoning. What you need is to make sure that the hot area have TRV's and the coldest area doesn't. If you can make sure the hall way is the coolest area then you can have the thermostat there where it is convenient to put on/off when you come in/go out. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards |
#19
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In article , Mike
Barnard writes Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone... Highly recommended :-D http://i7.tinypic.com/4yam5x4.jpg -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#20
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In message , Mike Barnard
writes The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. I cannot answer this from a DIY perspective, because I didn't do ours, but, having had it done, I think it is wonderful. We have four entirely independent timers, controlling the heating for three areas, plus hot water, all powered by a conventional oil fired boiler. Different parts of the house are heated at different times, to suit our needs. The times can be overridden, of course. Different times for each day of the week, if required. Yes, there are TRVs on the rads, which help, and in theory we could run around adjusting them, but who does? The only downside is reminding the family that hot air rises - it is fairly pointless having just the downstairs heating on, with all the bedroom doors wide open :-) -- Graeme |
#21
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
"Graeme" wrote in message ... In message , Mike Barnard writes The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. I cannot answer this from a DIY perspective, because I didn't do ours, but, having had it done, I think it is wonderful. We have four entirely independent timers, controlling the heating for three areas, plus hot water, all powered by a conventional oil fired boiler. Different parts of the house are heated at different times, to suit our needs. The times can be overridden, of course. Different times for each day of the week, if required. Yes, there are TRVs on the rads, which help, and in theory we could run around adjusting them, but who does? The only downside is reminding the family that hot air rises - it is fairly pointless having just the downstairs heating on, with all the bedroom doors wide open :-) The you have teenagers or cats. One leaves the door open, the other expects the door to be left open. Adam |
#22
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In message , ARWadsworth
writes "Graeme" wrote in message ... The only downside is reminding the family that hot air rises - it is fairly pointless having just the downstairs heating on, with all the bedroom doors wide open :-) The you have teenagers or cats. One leaves the door open, the other expects the door to be left open. Grin Almost - a wife, a six year old who knows everything, and two cats :-) -- Graeme |
#23
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On 2007-06-28 20:57:52 +0100, Graeme said:
In message , ARWadsworth writes "Graeme" wrote in message ... The only downside is reminding the family that hot air rises - it is fairly pointless having just the downstairs heating on, with all the bedroom doors wide open :-) The you have teenagers or cats. One leaves the door open, the other expects the door to be left open. Grin Almost - a wife, a six year old who knows everything, and two cats :-) Wait until the six year old becomes a teenager. They will never know as much again. |
#24
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On 2007-06-28 20:57:52 +0100, Graeme said: In message , ARWadsworth writes "Graeme" wrote in message ... The only downside is reminding the family that hot air rises - it is fairly pointless having just the downstairs heating on, with all the bedroom doors wide open :-) The you have teenagers or cats. One leaves the door open, the other expects the door to be left open. Grin Almost - a wife, a six year old who knows everything, and two cats :-) Wait until the six year old becomes a teenager. They will never know as much again. And I bet this bugger only came home as the credit card in the top photo had expired http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/6253634.stm Adam |
#25
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:14:24 +0100, Mike Barnard
wrote: Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no Thanks for all the inputs. Excuse me if I don't reply to each post individually. I certaintly agree in the idea of zoning in larger houses, but this is a small 3 bed terrace house. No room at all to supply pipework to each rad! And I'll have to cross many floor joists so I don't want to cut too many pipe holes in either. So, a couple more questions if I may. 1. Can I have a common return to the boiler or will that cause problems? 2. Are there any websites that show the theories behind zoning? Yes, I have googled and found many sites seling valves, but no tech guides. Nothing in the FAQ either. 3. Should I just do the two north facing rooms? 4. Or three zones... North facing up, south facing up and downstairs? 5. Or one zone up, one down... 6. What size pipes can I get away with if I'm only doing a couple of rads? Anything else of a practical nature? Regs? Again, many thanks. |
#26
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In article , Mike Barnard
writes On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:14:24 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote: Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no Thanks for all the inputs. Excuse me if I don't reply to each post individually. I certaintly agree in the idea of zoning in larger houses, but this is a small 3 bed terrace house. No room at all to supply pipework to each rad! And I'll have to cross many floor joists so I don't want to cut too many pipe holes in either. Although I have chosen to centralise the controls and run separate feeds (1 feed/return pair per room) there is no need for you to do the same, you can run a live backbone throughout the house (2 pipes) and place the controls where they are needed. I would suggest though that you make the controls accessible with the minimum of fuss as there will be a time when you need to access them in (and without) anger. If you can make splits off the backbone in places like airing or other cupboards then do so. Be sure to insulate the backbone feed and return (at least) as there is no point in heating the rest of the house if you're just fending off a bit of winter chill in the master bedroom overnight. So, a couple more questions if I may. 1. Can I have a common return to the boiler or will that cause problems? Separate paths for feed and return can run into problems but see above for the alternative. 2. Are there any websites that show the theories behind zoning? Yes, I have googled and found many sites seling valves, but no tech guides. Nothing in the FAQ either. I don't think so, nobody does this, they think it is too hard. 3. Should I just do the two north facing rooms? 4. Or three zones... North facing up, south facing up and downstairs? 5. Or one zone up, one down... 4 zoning would seem like a reasonable split, 2 up & 2 down. Reasoning downstairs being why heat the kitchen at all when you're watching telly? Upstairs is probably less in need of a split but it shouldn't be too hard to do. Separate zones really are superior to the sort of results you get with TRVs. 6. What size pipes can I get away with if I'm only doing a couple of rads? Depends how big the rads are of course :-), but 15mm to 2 rads off a 22mm backbone would be safe. Anything else of a practical nature? Regs? Each room needs a control, whether it be TRVs or stat. Do it, you won't regret it. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#27
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:23 GMT, fred wrote:
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla I *love* (real) vanilla :-) -- Frank Erskine |
#28
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In article , Frank
Erskine writes On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:23 GMT, fred wrote: Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla I *love* (real) vanilla :-) But Plusnet is that crappy frozen vegetable whey vanilla that Tesco sell in blue striped gallon tubs, bet you wouldn't touch that ;-) -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#29
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
fred wrote:
In article , Frank Erskine writes On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:00:23 GMT, fred wrote: Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla I *love* (real) vanilla :-) But Plusnet is that crappy frozen vegetable whey vanilla that Tesco sell in blue striped gallon tubs, bet you wouldn't touch that ;-) Which would suggest the most ISPs a flogging you a bowl of frozen lard then! (for all their occasional stuff ups, they do manage to get a number of things right that seems to permanently elude the others) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#30
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
The message
from fred contains these words: 3. Should I just do the two north facing rooms? 4. Or three zones... North facing up, south facing up and downstairs? 5. Or one zone up, one down... 4 zoning would seem like a reasonable split, 2 up & 2 down. Reasoning downstairs being why heat the kitchen at all when you're watching telly? Upstairs is probably less in need of a split but it shouldn't be too hard to do. Separate zones really are superior to the sort of results you get with TRVs. I initially resisted the idea that I would benefit from zoning as I have an open staircase leading from the living room but I eventually weakened and have not subsequently regretted it. FWIW I have effectively 3 zones. Downstairs with the programmable stat in the living room, upstairs with the programmable stat in the main bedroom and the bathroom where the radiator (with a TRV) is on the boiler bypass circuit and is thus supplying needed heat whenever the boiler runs. There is an automatic valve on the bypass circuit which can operate when the bathroom TRV is closed. -- Roger Chapman |
#31
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:22:01 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote:
2. Are there any websites that show the theories behind zoning? Yes, I have googled and found many sites seling valves, but no tech guides. Nothing in the FAQ either. What does this NOT tell you that I should add to it? http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...s_and_Zonin g -- John Stumbles I used to be forgetful but now I ... um .... |
#32
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:55:26 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:22:01 +0100, Mike Barnard wrote: 2. Are there any websites that show the theories behind zoning? Yes, I have googled and found many sites seling valves, but no tech guides. Nothing in the FAQ either. What does this NOT tell you that I should add to it? http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...s_and_Zonin g Sorry about the delay in replying, I missed this post. How about the fact that I didn't know it existed? The FAQ isn't the Wiki... is it? I went here... http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ and to here... http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/he...ngsystems.html Should links be updated? |
#33
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
In article ,
Mike Barnard writes: Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Well that's resolvable by matching radiator sizes to heatloss in each room, which should have been done anyway. The room with the thermostat could be relatively slightly undersized to ensure other rooms are normally all up to temperature before the thermostat switches off. However, to go back to your main point, I installed central heating in an end-terrace house 5 years ago. I zoned it and I don't regret that one bit. I split it into 3 zones; downstairs, upstairs, and bathroom. The bathroom sticks out the back of the house and was prone to be cold and takes a long time to warm up. The bathroom zone is simply the logical OR of the upstairs and downstairs zones, i.e. the bathroom heating is on if either upstairs or downstairs heating is on. Some things to bear in mind... A small zone is likely to have insufficient heat output to absorb all the power of a modulating boiler even at lowest power output, so you will get boiler cycling. Some modulating boilers, particularly condensing with a system designed for efficient low flow temperature, are not all that good when cycling at low temperature. Even a medium sized zone will have this issue when only low heat output is required, and you will end up with periods where multiple medium sized zones end up taking turns with heating demand resulting in a long period of cyclic boiler running where fewer/single zone would avoid this. My own designed heating controller attempts to avoid this, but I don't know if there are any multi-zone commercial heating controllers which do that (and multiple single zone ontrols could not do that). If you are intending to be able to operate the system with some zones switched off (or frost setting), remember to allow for the heatloss to a cold room from a warm room on a different zone, bearing in mind that rooms are often not well thermally insulated from each other. This is particularly important for upstairs verses downstairs zones. Often much of the upstairs heating comes from downstairs through the floor, but if you make that normal assumption in a heatloss calculator, you will find it difficult to heat the upstairs alone if downstairs is cold and not contributing. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#34
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Domestic CH - to zone or not to zone...
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Mike Barnard writes: Hi all. Any CH design guru's aid me in my small dilemma please? I have a 1960's mid terrace Wimpy (spit) three bed house. It had no CH at all untill a couple of years ago when I put a new combi boiler in [1]. I also put a couple of rads in. It was not a complete system, DHW was what I needed mostly. Now the time has finally come to finish the job. The dilemma is whether to zone off the rear two rooms upstairs. The bathroom and bedroom 2 are north facing and in winter they can be much colder than the rest of the house. The thremostat and timing controls are in the open plan lounge; see description below. If the lounge is nice and toasty, then the thermostat will not be telling the boiler to fire up. Therefore the water in the pipes will not be heated and under circulation. No matter how far the TRV's in these rooms open they will recieve no heat. Well that's resolvable by matching radiator sizes to heatloss in each room, which should have been done anyway. The room with the thermostat could be relatively slightly undersized to ensure other rooms are normally all up to temperature before the thermostat switches off. However, to go back to your main point, I installed central heating in an end-terrace house 5 years ago. I zoned it and I don't regret that one bit. I split it into 3 zones; downstairs, upstairs, and bathroom. The bathroom sticks out the back of the house and was prone to be cold and takes a long time to warm up. The bathroom zone is simply the logical OR of the upstairs and downstairs zones, i.e. the bathroom heating is on if either upstairs or downstairs heating is on. Some things to bear in mind... A small zone is likely to have insufficient heat output to absorb all the power of a modulating boiler even at lowest power output, so you will get boiler cycling. Some modulating boilers, particularly condensing with a system designed for efficient low flow temperature, are not all that good when cycling at low temperature. Even a medium sized zone will have this issue when only low heat output is required, and you will end up with periods where multiple medium sized zones end up taking turns with heating demand resulting in a long period of cyclic boiler running where fewer/single zone would avoid this. This is where a thermal store comes in. Take all the zones from the water store and the boiler only heats the store with one long efficient burn. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
What zone is under the bath? | UK diy | |||
To zone or not to zone, that is the question! | UK diy | |||
zone problem | Home Ownership | |||
Zone Valves | UK diy | |||
thermostat compatibility for 2 zone hot water heating w/o zone valves | Home Ownership |