 |
|
| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
| Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
A mate has had a kitchen fitted about 6 months ago that involved major
electrical work, new cooker feed, adding a new ring main just for kicthen and electical underfloor heating. All is now complete'ish, new ceiling up, walls replastered, and tiled, painting done, floor tiled etc. However speaking to him the other day he realised he has absolutely nothing in terms of paperwork to do with the electrical testing/Part P. Went back the fitting company who said the fitter they employed was Part P self certifying and should have given him the paperwork of what he did, but as they have parted company with this fitter my mate should therefore get the electrics certified/tested and the fitting company will pay. No problem he thought. A quick phone call to a couple of electricians reveals a problem, none of them are interested as they did not fit the electrical installation so therefore cannot sign it off as they can no longer physically inspect it.!!!!! I suspect my mate is asking for the wrong thing, what should he be asking electricians for ? Should be asking the local building control for "completion certificate" The fitting company is not much help as they only employ self certifying fitters and don't have a clue what paperwork should be issued. |
|
#2
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
Ian_m wrote:
However speaking to him the other day he realised he has absolutely nothing in terms of paperwork to do with the electrical testing/Part P. Went back the fitting company who said the fitter they employed was Part P self certifying and should have given him the paperwork of what he did, but as they have parted company with this fitter my mate should therefore get the electrics certified/tested and the fitting company will pay. No problem he thought. A quick phone call to a couple of electricians reveals a problem, none of them are interested as they did not fit the electrical installation so therefore cannot sign it off as they can no longer physically inspect it.!!!!! They are right, there is no provision in part P for anyone other than the original installer to be able to self certify it. A third party can not come along later and issue one for him. I suspect my mate is asking for the wrong thing, what should he be asking electricians for ? Nothing, he would need to contact the original electrician. Should be asking the local building control for "completion certificate" Was this work being done under a building notice? If not then no. The fitting company is not much help as they only employ self certifying fitters and don't have a clue what paperwork should be issued. About par for the course. If building control are not involved then he may as well go without. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
|
#3
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
"Ian_m" wrote A mate has had a kitchen fitted about 6 months ago that involved major electrical work, new cooker feed, adding a new ring main just for kicthen and electical underfloor heating. All is now complete'ish................ So has he paid the full amount to the kitchen supply company? If the electrician was appointed by (and effectively under the control of) the kitchen company , i. e. nothing to do with your mate, then it should be the kitchen company's responsibility to provide an install that meets current regs! This obviously includes the provision of appropriate paperwork. I recently had a major heating upgrade which included all new electrics, controls etc. My agreement was with the plumbing company who sub'd the work out to a local lekky. It was the plumbing company I approached to get the Part P certification - but I had'nt paid the bill at that point! AIUI the plumbing company (in my case) and the kitchen company (in your mate's case) are adopting the role of "main contractor" and as such become liable for the project as a whole. Although they will conveniently (for them) try to distance themselves from their own appointed subbies as and when it suits. Phil |
|
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On 30 May, 16:07, "Ian_m" wrote:
A mate has had a kitchen fitted about 6 months ago that involved major electrical work, new cooker feed, adding a new ring main just for kicthen and electical underfloor heating. All is now complete'ish, new ceiling up, walls replastered, and tiled, painting done, floor tiled etc. However speaking to him the other day he realised he has absolutely nothing in terms of paperwork to do with the electrical testing/Part P. Went back the fitting company who said the fitter they employed was Part P self certifying and should have given him the paperwork of what he did, but as they have parted company with this fitter my mate should therefore get the electrics certified/tested and the fitting company will pay. No problem he thought. A quick phone call to a couple of electricians reveals a problem, none of them are interested as they did not fit the electrical installation so therefore cannot sign it off as they can no longer physically inspect it.!!!!! I suspect my mate is asking for the wrong thing, what should he be asking electricians for ? Should be asking the local building control for "completion certificate" The fitting company is not much help as they only employ self certifying fitters and don't have a clue what paperwork should be issued. I would just forget about it. I've never seen a Part P certificate. Mother-in-law's new bathroom was fitted by an electrician who lied about being part P. Neighbors house was renovated and signed off by building control despite no electrical certificate. Another neighbor's new house wasn't given an electrical certificate, but also signed off by BC. You could do a building notice, then call in the inspector when the work is "done". T |
|
#5
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On Wed, 30 May 2007 16:28:12 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Ian_m wrote: However speaking to him the other day he realised he has absolutely nothing in terms of paperwork to do with the electrical testing/Part P. Went back the fitting company who said the fitter they employed was Part P self certifying and should have given him the paperwork of what he did, but as they have parted company with this fitter my mate should therefore get the electrics certified/tested and the fitting company will pay. No problem he thought. A quick phone call to a couple of electricians reveals a problem, none of them are interested as they did not fit the electrical installation so therefore cannot sign it off as they can no longer physically inspect it.!!!!! They are right, there is no provision in part P for anyone other than the original installer to be able to self certify it. A third party can not come along later and issue one for him. I suspect my mate is asking for the wrong thing, what should he be asking electricians for ? Nothing, he would need to contact the original electrician. Should be asking the local building control for "completion certificate" Was this work being done under a building notice? If not then no. The fitting company is not much help as they only employ self certifying fitters and don't have a clue what paperwork should be issued. About par for the course. If building control are not involved then he may as well go without. This is just another example of how badly thought out this law was. what happens if someone becomes seriously ill or worse at the end of an installation? Unless you need the paperwork to sell the house I'd just forget it. If you do then you'll have to get a Periodic from an electrician. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards |
|
#6
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
|
|
#8
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On 30 May, 23:07, Owain wrote:
Hugo Nebula wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". I think this confuses testing to BS7671, and Part Pee compliance. Owain It's easy to get confused though isn't it? You get conflicting opinions as to what PartP means wherever you ask. I have even had an electrical wholesaler refuse to sell me stuff because I'm not PartP registered. (How could I be, I'm not an electrician). They had the NICEIC in the day before who told them it was illegal to sell stuff to unregistered electricians. They have subsequently sold me stuff. I think I agree with what you seem to be suggesting: Part P - Building Control requirements relaxed. (certificates included) BS7671 Certificate - Inform BC before work commences, then either they inspect or accept a certificate. Competence: Part P - Member of scheme. BS7671 - C+G 2391 ????? I'm not entirely sure as to the competency required to issue a BS7671 certificate. I know one person who installed a grid connected wind turbine in his garden. He provided a BS7671 certificate, which he filled in himself (incorrectly), which was acceptable to Building Control. It seemed to me that so long as they could prove that it was someone else's responsibility, they were happy. T |
|
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
However speaking to him the other day he realised he has absolutely
nothing in terms of paperwork to do with the electrical testing/Part P. Went back the fitting company who said the fitter they employed was Part P self certifying and should have given him the paperwork of what he did, but as they have parted company with this fitter my mate should therefore get the electrics certified/tested and the fitting company will pay. No problem he thought. A quick phone call to a couple of electricians reveals a problem, none of them are interested as they did not fit the electrical installation so therefore cannot sign it off as they can no longer physically inspect it.!!!!! They are right, there is no provision in part P for anyone other than the original installer to be able to self certify it. A third party can not come along later and issue one for him. I suspect my mate is asking for the wrong thing, what should he be asking electricians for ? Nothing, he would need to contact the original electrician. He has contacted the original fitter (kept his mobile) who was employed by the kitchen company, but the two of them are no longer on speaking terms. The fitter wants nothing to do with it anymore. Fiiter says he submitted the relevant test and signed off paperwork to the kitchen company. He says he must have or else he would not have been paid for the job. The fitter apparently was sacked due to "anomolous billing of jobs", rather than quality of his work. Anyway my mate is no further forward...The list of deliverables for his kitchen does state Part P compliance. |
|
#10
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their
website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. |
|
#11
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote:
NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. T |
|
#12
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
Ian_m wrote:
Anyway my mate is no further forward...The list of deliverables for his kitchen does state Part P compliance. Since his only contract is with them, then they are the ones he will have to play hardball with then. (especially if he has not paid the bill yet) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
|
#13
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
wrote in message
ps.com... On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly..... |
|
#14
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something like: It's easy to get confused though isn't it? You get conflicting opinions as to what PartP means wherever you ask. I have even had an electrical wholesaler refuse to sell me stuff because I'm not PartP registered. (How could I be, I'm not an electrician). They had the NICEIC in the day before who told them it was illegal to sell stuff to unregistered electricians. They have subsequently sold me stuff. Obviously wishful thinking on the part of the NICEIC, showing what they would like to happen sometime in the next few years. Iirc, there are similar restrictions on the sale of electrical, HVAC, and plumbing items in some US states. Be afraid, be very afraid - because sometime the Greedy *******s will attempt to restrict the freedoms of all DIYers to carry out anything remotely technical on spurious 'safety' grounds. -- Dave |
|
#15
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On Thu, 31 May 2007 18:36:57 +0100 Grimly Curmudgeon wrote :
Obviously wishful thinking on the part of the NICEIC, showing what they would like to happen sometime in the next few years. Iirc, there are similar restrictions on the sale of electrical, HVAC, and plumbing items in some US states. "Spare parts supplier, Parts Center has announced that from January next year it will no longer sell ‘gas-carrying parts’ to customers who are not registered with CORGI. The move is viewed by CORGI as a breakthrough in its ongoing campaign to persuade manufacturers and merchants to make it more difficult for illegal gas workers to operate. Parts Center will be the first national product distributor to adopt such a policy." http://www.phamnews.co.uk/news/newsD...D=1&newsID=427 -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
|
#16
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On 2007-05-31 20:30:32 +0100, Tony Bryer said:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 18:36:57 +0100 Grimly Curmudgeon wrote : Obviously wishful thinking on the part of the NICEIC, showing what they would like to happen sometime in the next few years. Iirc, there are similar restrictions on the sale of electrical, HVAC, and plumbing items in some US states. "Spare parts supplier, Parts Center has announced that from January next year it will no longer sell ‘gas-carrying parts’ to customers who are not registered with CORGI. The move is viewed by CORGI as a breakthrough in its ongoing campaign to persuade manufacturers and merchants to make it more difficult for illegal gas workers to operate. Parts Center will be the first national product distributor to adopt such a policy." http://www.phamnews.co.uk/news/newsD...D=1&newsID=427 Market opportunity. Become CORGI registered and a reseller of parts. Second market opportunity. Other parts distributors picking up the market share from Parts Center I suspect that the reality is that few parts of this type are sold by Parts Center to non registered customers anyway and they've decided that they might as well have the press coverage. |
|
#17
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
On Thu, 31 May 2007 20:37:46 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
I suspect that the reality is that few parts of this type are sold by Parts Center to non registered customers anyway and they've decided that they might as well have the press coverage. You and I would turn up at the counter knowing what we want, buy it, and that would be the end of it. But, as you say, what we spend is not worth worrying about as compared to their overall sales. I would not be totally surprised if they didn't have a fair number of people who wanted lots of free advice, didn't know what they were doing, then brought the bits back for a refund. All the time trade customers waiting behind them getting increasingly fed up. Losing these people is a bonus to them and their trade customers. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
|
#18
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
In article ,
Tony Bryer writes: "Spare parts supplier, Parts Center has announced that from January next year it will no longer sell ‘gas-carrying parts’ to customers who are not registered with CORGI. The move is viewed by CORGI as a breakthrough in its ongoing campaign to persuade manufacturers and merchants to make it more difficult for illegal gas workers to operate. Parts Center will be the first national product distributor to adopt such a policy." http://www.phamnews.co.uk/news/newsD...D=1&newsID=427 Oh brilliant -- so we'll have people fitting wrong parts and improvising now. That's sure to improve gas safety... I have found Parts Center's lack of stock makes them less than useful in any case. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
|
#19
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
"Ian_m" wrote in message
... wrote in message ps.com... On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly..... He finally had a long chat with kitchen fitter. The fitter said he could not actually issue Prat P paper work (and advised the fitting company) as the electrical Part P work he did was subsequently modified/rearranged by "other people", thus he could not issue Part P as it was no longer all his installation. After much head scratching my mate suspects the "other people" are the tiler who did the underfloor heating underfloor heating moving the fused spur and controller from where the fitter initally installed it to somewhere move convenient and the plasterer when he replaced the ceiling rearranged/re-wired all the downlighters so that they illuminated the work surfaces better. The tiler and plasterer were not employed by the kitchen fitting compamy but were by recommendation from friends. So still no further forward. Surely this is a major fault with Prat P that a suitably qualified electrician can come in do his finest certifiable work but not be able to issue Prat P as his work is subsequently modified by other trades in the course of their work.? |
|
#20
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
"Ian_m" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... wrote in message ps.com... On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly..... He finally had a long chat with kitchen fitter. The fitter said he could not actually issue Prat P paper work (and advised the fitting company) as the electrical Part P work he did was subsequently modified/rearranged by "other people", thus he could not issue Part P as it was no longer all his installation. After much head scratching my mate suspects the "other people" are the tiler who did the underfloor heating underfloor heating moving the fused spur and controller from where the fitter initally installed it to somewhere move convenient and the plasterer when he replaced the ceiling rearranged/re-wired all the downlighters so that they illuminated the work surfaces better. The tiler and plasterer were not employed by the kitchen fitting compamy but were by recommendation from friends. So still no further forward. Surely this is a major fault with Prat P that a suitably qualified electrician can come in do his finest certifiable work but not be able to issue Prat P as his work is subsequently modified by other trades in the course of their work.? No, that should be down to the project manager to ensure other don't alter anything, and that things are in the correct place in the first place. Not reasonable to expect anyone to certify any type of work that has been altered after they left it, be it gas, electrics or water plumbing. He should have issued the paperwork at the time he finished. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against the part P imposition - it's a pain. AWEM |
|
#21
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message
... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... wrote in message ps.com... On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly..... He finally had a long chat with kitchen fitter. The fitter said he could not actually issue Prat P paper work (and advised the fitting company) as the electrical Part P work he did was subsequently modified/rearranged by "other people", thus he could not issue Part P as it was no longer all his installation. After much head scratching my mate suspects the "other people" are the tiler who did the underfloor heating underfloor heating moving the fused spur and controller from where the fitter initally installed it to somewhere move convenient and the plasterer when he replaced the ceiling rearranged/re-wired all the downlighters so that they illuminated the work surfaces better. The tiler and plasterer were not employed by the kitchen fitting compamy but were by recommendation from friends. So still no further forward. Surely this is a major fault with Prat P that a suitably qualified electrician can come in do his finest certifiable work but not be able to issue Prat P as his work is subsequently modified by other trades in the course of their work.? No, that should be down to the project manager to ensure other don't alter anything, and that things are in the correct place in the first place. Not reasonable to expect anyone to certify any type of work that has been altered after they left it, be it gas, electrics or water plumbing. He should have issued the paperwork at the time he finished. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against the part P imposition - it's a pain. I thinks the issue is - Fitter/Prat P man comes in does all wiring as no ceiling in kitchen so adding ring, adding lights adding cooker feed all easy peasy. Also can just chase down walls for new ring as he sees fit. - Plasterer comes in to replace ceiling, rearranges light wiring as he sees fit, repairs walls. - Fitter comes back fits new kitchen, intends to come back to finish plinths, final checks when tiler has tiled floors and walls. - Tiler does his job but moves fused spur and might have even repositioned some sockets so as to "fit better" with tiles around. - Fitter comes back to finish plinths and complete final electrical test and finds some unknown amount of his worked has been altered. Fitter refuses to issue Part P as he no longer knows what is his work anymore. |
|
#22
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
"Ian_m" wrote in message ... "Andrew Mawson" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... wrote in message ps.com... On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly..... He finally had a long chat with kitchen fitter. The fitter said he could not actually issue Prat P paper work (and advised the fitting company) as the electrical Part P work he did was subsequently modified/rearranged by "other people", thus he could not issue Part P as it was no longer all his installation. After much head scratching my mate suspects the "other people" are the tiler who did the underfloor heating underfloor heating moving the fused spur and controller from where the fitter initally installed it to somewhere move convenient and the plasterer when he replaced the ceiling rearranged/re-wired all the downlighters so that they illuminated the work surfaces better. The tiler and plasterer were not employed by the kitchen fitting compamy but were by recommendation from friends. So still no further forward. Surely this is a major fault with Prat P that a suitably qualified electrician can come in do his finest certifiable work but not be able to issue Prat P as his work is subsequently modified by other trades in the course of their work.? No, that should be down to the project manager to ensure other don't alter anything, and that things are in the correct place in the first place. Not reasonable to expect anyone to certify any type of work that has been altered after they left it, be it gas, electrics or water plumbing. He should have issued the paperwork at the time he finished. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against the part P imposition - it's a pain. I thinks the issue is - Fitter/Prat P man comes in does all wiring as no ceiling in kitchen so adding ring, adding lights adding cooker feed all easy peasy. Also can just chase down walls for new ring as he sees fit. - Plasterer comes in to replace ceiling, rearranges light wiring as he sees fit, repairs walls. - Fitter comes back fits new kitchen, intends to come back to finish plinths, final checks when tiler has tiled floors and walls. - Tiler does his job but moves fused spur and might have even repositioned some sockets so as to "fit better" with tiles around. - Fitter comes back to finish plinths and complete final electrical test and finds some unknown amount of his worked has been altered. Fitter refuses to issue Part P as he no longer knows what is his work anymore. So shoot the project manager who let the other trades alter things. And shoot the planner who choose sub-optimal positions (assuming the new locations are what you now want). I think that the sparks was entirely right not to issue a certificate if others have boogered arround with his work. AWEM |
|
#23
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
|
Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.
"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... "Andrew Mawson" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... "Ian_m" wrote in message ... wrote in message ps.com... On 31 May, 13:42, "Ian_m" wrote: NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this: "Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing? (Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case". -- How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted. That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck. Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly..... He finally had a long chat with kitchen fitter. The fitter said he could not actually issue Prat P paper work (and advised the fitting company) as the electrical Part P work he did was subsequently modified/rearranged by "other people", thus he could not issue Part P as it was no longer all his installation. After much head scratching my mate suspects the "other people" are the tiler who did the underfloor heating underfloor heating moving the fused spur and controller from where the fitter initally installed it to somewhere move convenient and the plasterer when he replaced the ceiling rearranged/re-wired all the downlighters so that they illuminated the work surfaces better. The tiler and plasterer were not employed by the kitchen fitting compamy but were by recommendation from friends. So still no further forward. Surely this is a major fault with Prat P that a suitably qualified electrician can come in do his finest certifiable work but not be able to issue Prat P as his work is subsequently modified by other trades in the course of their work.? No, that should be down to the project manager to ensure other don't alter anything, and that things are in the correct place in the first place. Not reasonable to expect anyone to certify any type of work that has been altered after they left it, be it gas, electrics or water plumbing. He should have issued the paperwork at the time he finished. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against the part P imposition - it's a pain. I thinks the issue is - Fitter/Prat P man comes in does all wiring as no ceiling in kitchen so adding ring, adding lights adding cooker feed all easy peasy. Also can just chase down walls for new ring as he sees fit. - Plasterer comes in to replace ceiling, rearranges light wiring as he sees fit, repairs walls. - Fitter comes back fits new kitchen, intends to come back to finish plinths, final checks when tiler has tiled floors and walls. - Tiler does his job but moves fused spur and might have even repositioned some sockets so as to "fit better" with tiles around. - Fitter comes back to finish plinths and complete final electrical test and finds some unknown amount of his worked has been altered. Fitter refuses to issue Part P as he no longer knows what is his work anymore. So shoot the project manager who let the other trades alter things. And shoot the planner who choose sub-optimal positions (assuming the new locations are what you now want). I think that the sparks was entirely right not to issue a certificate if others have boogered arround with his work. The customer is the "project manager". If the plasterer says to customer "I think the lights would be much better moved to here", the customer is hardly likely to say "no" and realise the implications of this decision. Same with the tiler and underfloor heatng control, "he said, oh you don't want to fit it there, it would be much better here..." |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| What paperwork should I expect from a Prat P self certifying electrician ? | UK diy | |||
| Completion Certificates | UK diy | |||
| Prat P (spit) Test meters. | UK diy | |||
Linear Mode
