Just been helping my sister who's "new" 140-year old house has many,
many unique fixer-up opportunities etc.

This particular problem is related to the floor joists in the kitchen,
by the back door.

There was a piece of floor-grade chipboard, approximately 3ft by 2ft on
by the back door entrance. This was "springy" to step on, and she
suspected foul play underneath. Prising the chip-board up revealed the
following two joists (apologies - bad mobile-phone images) :-


http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0090.jpg

(Right-most joist, looking side-on)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0091.jpg

(Same, slightly different angle)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0092.jpg

(Same joist, looking in from the back door)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0093.jpg

(badly out of focus, joist to the left of the previous)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0094.jpg

(slightly better picture of the one to the left)


I've yet to get under the floor (I might need to lose a few pounds to
fit under), but from what I can tell, the joist is good wood 2-3 foot
in, and the problem would appear to be related to damp coming under the
kitchen door over many, many years.

The joist is now dry - in fact there's a good amount of material that
flakes off in your hand (sister stopped me before I removed all of the
material with my thumb)

There is some evidence of creepy-crawly activity - there's obvious sign
of wood worm at some stage, but the most obvious things are the
occasional wood-louse (I saw 2).

My immediate thought was that, provided the joist timber is sound 2-3
foot in, I could get a, say 6ft length of similar timber, and bolt this
alongside the joist (either 10mm coach bolts, or similar coach screws),
sit this new timber on top of the same dwarf wall, with the end wrapped
in damp-proof membrane. Maybe treat the original timber with some
insecticide?

Is this sensible?, crazy?, is there any other suggestions from the
people that know?

Any information gratefully received... then I can get back to DIYing on
someone else's property :s

Regards

Mike

"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
news:4620d7a7.0@entanet...
Just been helping my sister who's "new" 140-year old house has many, many
unique fixer-up opportunities etc.

This particular problem is related to the floor joists in the kitchen, by
the back door.

There was a piece of floor-grade chipboard, approximately 3ft by 2ft on by
the back door entrance. This was "springy" to step on, and she suspected
foul play underneath. Prising the chip-board up revealed the following two
joists (apologies - bad mobile-phone images) :-


http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0090.jpg

(Right-most joist, looking side-on)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0091.jpg

(Same, slightly different angle)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0092.jpg

(Same joist, looking in from the back door)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0093.jpg

(badly out of focus, joist to the left of the previous)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0094.jpg

(slightly better picture of the one to the left)


I've yet to get under the floor (I might need to lose a few pounds to fit
under), but from what I can tell, the joist is good wood 2-3 foot in, and
the problem would appear to be related to damp coming under the kitchen
door over many, many years.

The joist is now dry - in fact there's a good amount of material that
flakes off in your hand (sister stopped me before I removed all of the
material with my thumb)

There is some evidence of creepy-crawly activity - there's obvious sign of
wood worm at some stage, but the most obvious things are the occasional
wood-louse (I saw 2).

My immediate thought was that, provided the joist timber is sound 2-3 foot
in, I could get a, say 6ft length of similar timber, and bolt this
alongside the joist (either 10mm coach bolts, or similar coach screws),
sit this new timber on top of the same dwarf wall, with the end wrapped in
damp-proof membrane. Maybe treat the original timber with some
insecticide?

Is this sensible?, crazy?, is there any other suggestions from the people
that know?


Yes you can, but do not underestimate how good that join has to be. A couple
of bolts will not suffice.
There is no real substitute for a complete new joist. But you can join if
you do it properly. There are a host of timber joining fixings and you
should bolt also with a good say 2ft overlap. And really bolt them up
tight. I'd go for 6 to 8 bolts in pairs at centres 30mm from top and bottom.
I'd also use some form of timber join fixing along the bottom. You might as
well glue it while you're at it!
Can you not just say to hell with it and take it as a renovation opportunity
with nice new hardwood floor for example.

--
Mike W

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
visionset wrote:

"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
news:4620d7a7.0@entanet...
Just been helping my sister who's "new" 140-year old house has many,
many unique fixer-up opportunities etc.

This particular problem is related to the floor joists in the
kitchen, by the back door.

There was a piece of floor-grade chipboard, approximately 3ft by 2ft
on by the back door entrance. This was "springy" to step on, and she
suspected foul play underneath. Prising the chip-board up revealed
the following two joists (apologies - bad mobile-phone images) :-


http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0090.jpg

(Right-most joist, looking side-on)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0091.jpg

(Same, slightly different angle)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0092.jpg

(Same joist, looking in from the back door)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0093.jpg

(badly out of focus, joist to the left of the previous)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0094.jpg

(slightly better picture of the one to the left)


I've yet to get under the floor (I might need to lose a few pounds
to fit under), but from what I can tell, the joist is good wood 2-3
foot in, and the problem would appear to be related to damp coming
under the kitchen door over many, many years.

The joist is now dry - in fact there's a good amount of material that
flakes off in your hand (sister stopped me before I removed all of
the material with my thumb)

There is some evidence of creepy-crawly activity - there's obvious
sign of wood worm at some stage, but the most obvious things are the
occasional wood-louse (I saw 2).

My immediate thought was that, provided the joist timber is sound
2-3 foot in, I could get a, say 6ft length of similar timber, and
bolt this alongside the joist (either 10mm coach bolts, or similar
coach screws), sit this new timber on top of the same dwarf wall,
with the end wrapped in damp-proof membrane. Maybe treat the
original timber with some insecticide?

Is this sensible?, crazy?, is there any other suggestions from the
people that know?


Yes you can, but do not underestimate how good that join has to be. A
couple of bolts will not suffice.

If the new joist is supported on dwarf walls *both* ends (which is what I
*think* is intended), the fixing doesn't need to be so exotic as it would if
the joint were suspened in mid-air.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...


Is this sensible?, crazy?, is there any other suggestions from the
people that know?


Yes you can, but do not underestimate how good that join has to be. A
couple of bolts will not suffice.

If the new joist is supported on dwarf walls *both* ends (which is what I
*think* is intended), the fixing doesn't need to be so exotic as it would
if the joint were suspened in mid-air.

Yes if the old joist is sound over the soldier wall, then a new section that
spans both walls needs very little fixing. More just to keep everything in
check.

--
Mike W

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
...

Yes you can, but do not underestimate how good that join has to be. A
couple of bolts will not suffice.

If the new joist is supported on dwarf walls *both* ends (which is what I
*think* is intended), the fixing doesn't need to be so exotic as it would
if the joint were suspened in mid-air.

Except that the floor is likely to need lifting just to get a new joist over
two dwarf walls. If the floor is being lifted, then the old joist might as
well come out.

-- JJ

Looks very much like dried-out wet-rot to me. If you cut back to good
wood and keep it all dry, you should have no more problems. Repair
sections in treated timber a good idea.

I agree very much with what MikeW says. Perhaps even a longer overlap
and lots of bolts/screws. I did a very similar repair around my
entrance, and it was convenient to add some extra masonry support
under the joint. Also easy to double up parts of neighbouring joists
at the same time. I was surprised how perceptually different it was to
step through the door and feel rock sold floor rather than previous
slight spring.

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:40:52 -0700, wrote:

Looks very much like dried-out wet-rot to me. If you cut back to good wood
and keep it all dry, you should have no more problems. Repair sections in
treated timber a good idea.

I agree very much with what MikeW says. Perhaps even a longer overlap and
lots of bolts/screws. I did a very similar repair around my entrance, and
it was convenient to add some extra masonry support under the joint. Also
easy to double up parts of neighbouring joists at the same time. I was
surprised how perceptually different it was to step through the door and
feel rock sold floor rather than previous slight spring.

===============================
Just to add that these things are the recommended fixings for side-by-side
timber fixing:

http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;js...ectors&x=0&y=0

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Windows shown the door
================================

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike Dodd wrote:

Just been helping my sister who's "new" 140-year old house has many,
many unique fixer-up opportunities etc.

This particular problem is related to the floor joists in the kitchen,
by the back door.

There was a piece of floor-grade chipboard, approximately 3ft by 2ft
on by the back door entrance. This was "springy" to step on, and she
suspected foul play underneath. Prising the chip-board up revealed the
following two joists (apologies - bad mobile-phone images) :-


http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0090.jpg

(Right-most joist, looking side-on)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0091.jpg

(Same, slightly different angle)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0092.jpg

(Same joist, looking in from the back door)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0093.jpg

(badly out of focus, joist to the left of the previous)

http://www.summat.co.uk/73DC0094.jpg

(slightly better picture of the one to the left)


I've yet to get under the floor (I might need to lose a few pounds to
fit under), but from what I can tell, the joist is good wood 2-3 foot
in, and the problem would appear to be related to damp coming under
the kitchen door over many, many years.

The joist is now dry - in fact there's a good amount of material that
flakes off in your hand (sister stopped me before I removed all of the
material with my thumb)

There is some evidence of creepy-crawly activity - there's obvious
sign of wood worm at some stage, but the most obvious things are the
occasional wood-louse (I saw 2).

My immediate thought was that, provided the joist timber is sound 2-3
foot in, I could get a, say 6ft length of similar timber, and bolt
this alongside the joist (either 10mm coach bolts, or similar coach
screws), sit this new timber on top of the same dwarf wall, with the
end wrapped in damp-proof membrane. Maybe treat the original timber
with some insecticide?

Is this sensible?, crazy?, is there any other suggestions from the
people that know?

Any information gratefully received... then I can get back to DIYing
on someone else's property :s

Regards

Mike

If the wood really is sound further back, what you suggest will work. But I
suspect from some of your photos that the joists near the door are crumbly
because of woodworm infestation rather than from rot. If this *is* the case,
the same problem is likely to exist further back - and in the floorboards
too - making a more drastic solution necessary.

I think you need to get down there and examine them thoroughly for woodworm,
prod them for firmness, and see how much they deflect when someone jumps on
the floor above.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Mike Dodd wrote:
Just been helping my sister who's "new" 140-year old house has many,
many unique fixer-up opportunities etc.

joist end rot is almost always ventilation related, the fact that it is, or
has been infested with woodworm is coincidental.

Remove and burn all affected timber, then treat remaining and new timbers
with a good quality timber treatment, Cuprinol do a good one that prevents
both wet and dry rot and also kills woodworm - it's fairly expensive but
goes for miles, spraying is better than brushing.

You may need to affix a vent brick into the wall that carries the joist ends
on this elevation, or uncover the existing one(s) which are possibly buried