These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good prices
on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection, just a happy
customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?



No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage), and they were
still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And they are
quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there is a surcharge
if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you the option to abort.
There's no moralising or refusing to supply gas parts. I do actually have a
friend who is a Corgi plumber and I guess for a larger order I might see if
I could do it through him. But it wasn't worth the hassle and delay for a
tenner or so.

In message , Newshound
writes

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?



No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage), and they were
still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And they are
quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there is a surcharge
if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you the option to abort.
There's no moralising or refusing to supply gas parts. I do actually have a
friend who is a Corgi plumber and I guess for a larger order I might see if
I could do it through him. But it wasn't worth the hassle and delay for a
tenner or so.

CORGI numbers are often appended to Yellow Pages adverts. Of course
lifting and using one probably breaks some law or other:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 22:28:22 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Newshound
writes

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?



No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage), and they were
still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And they are
quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there is a surcharge
if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you the option to abort.
There's no moralising or refusing to supply gas parts. I do actually have a
friend who is a Corgi plumber and I guess for a larger order I might see if
I could do it through him. But it wasn't worth the hassle and delay for a
tenner or so.

CORGI numbers are often appended to Yellow Pages adverts. Of course
lifting and using one probably breaks some law or other:-)

Indeed so Reg 3(7)
....no person shall pretend to be a member of that class of persons...

However, I'm fairly sure, pretending to be registered to obtain parts would
be viewed less harshly than to obtain work. If anything came of it that is.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

In message , Newshound
writes

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?



No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage), and they were
still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And they are
quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there is a surcharge
if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you the option to abort.
There's no moralising or refusing to supply gas parts. I do actually have a
friend who is a Corgi plumber and I guess for a larger order I might see if
I could do it through him. But it wasn't worth the hassle and delay for a
tenner or so.

One of these days I'll publish where he gets his gas valves etc from

To put it into perspective, I could get most standard gas valves (in
quantity) for around £25 /unit

how much did you pay ?

--
geoff

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 23:14:31 GMT, raden wrote:


To put it into perspective, I could get most standard gas valves (in
quantity) for around £25 /unit

how much did you pay ?

The more relevant question surely is, ' What would you charge a customer for the
supply of that same part ?'

Andy

One of these days I'll publish where he gets his gas valves etc from

To put it into perspective, I could get most standard gas valves (in
quantity) for around £25 /unit

how much did you pay ?

--
geoff

All up with VAT and delivery, £72-40. Best price I found elsewhere was £130
odd plus vat & delivery

Newshound wrote:

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?

No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage),

What is the 25% premium for, where does that extra cash go ?

I definitely, definitely would not do business with a crowd using the
regs as an excuse to stiff people. I see no reason why a supplier would
have to charge more to deal with a non-registered person.

still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And they are
quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there is a surcharge
if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you the option to abort.

How do they validate the CORGI number I wonder ..

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?

No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage),

What is the 25% premium for, where does that extra cash go ?

A corgi member is more likely to do repeat business, so gets a discount?

cheers,
clive

In message , Geronimo W.
Christ Esq writes
Newshound wrote:

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?

No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage),

What is the 25% premium for, where does that extra cash go ?

I definitely, definitely would not do business with a crowd using the
regs as an excuse to stiff people. I see no reason why a supplier would
have to charge more to deal with a non-registered person.

still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And
they are quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there
is a surcharge if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you
the option to abort.

How do they validate the CORGI number I wonder ..

It's totally irrelevant

Phil knows that CORGIs can normally get a better deal than you, as a
numpty, can - so he loads the price. Make a scene and he'll back down

Whatever the OP says, I would be happy to sell to, but not buy from him
--
geoff

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 00:22:25 +0000, Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:

Newshound wrote:

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?

No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage),

What is the 25% premium for, where does that extra cash go ?

I definitely, definitely would not do business with a crowd using the
regs as an excuse to stiff people. I see no reason why a supplier would
have to charge more to deal with a non-registered person.


What even when their prices are lower even with the lack of
additional discount?


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
Newshound wrote:

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Are you, and did they....?

No, and they did (but only on the part, not the postage),

What is the 25% premium for, where does that extra cash go ?

A few business I deal with tend to charge more to "casual" as opposed
to "trade" sales because they figure that "casual" sales take more time
and effort :

Trade customer: "I'll have a dingle-dangle for a snippet 1220-X with
the green pigknob please"
Retailer: "Yes sir. Ten pounds"
(transaction takes 5 minutes

Casual customer: "Have you got a thingy watchmecallit ... goes on the
.... y'know"
(30 minutes, several misidentified parts later)
Retailer: "Finally. Ten pounds please"
Casual customer: "What a rip-off" (leaves).

And that doesn't take account of the people who come in asking for X.
Get X. Get home, realise they needed X/1 (or Y) and go back to try and
change this munged part.

All takes time. And (children - keep up at the back please) time is
.....?







I definitely, definitely would not do business with a crowd using the
regs as an excuse to stiff people. I see no reason why a supplier would
have to charge more to deal with a non-registered person.

still less than half the price of the next best price I found. And they are
quite up front about it, the order page warns you that there is a surcharge
if the Corgi Number field is left empty and gives you the option to abort.

How do they validate the CORGI number I wonder ..

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is like
saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:36:46 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is like
saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

No, it's saying "You can't have a trade price".

I realise it upsets Drivel, since even CORGI wouldn't have him.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:36:46 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is like
saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

No, it's saying "You can't have a trade price".

Which is driscimination.

I realise it upsets Drivel, since even CORGI wouldn't have him.

I wouldn't have Corgi. Cowboys the lot of them.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is
like
saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

No, it's saying "You can't have a trade price".

Which is driscimination.


Discrimination per se is not illegal.
I'ts perfectly legal to discriminate on many grounds, eg:

Membership: "You're not a member of our organisation, Go away."
Stupidity: " You are too thick, you can't come to our University"
Ugliness: "You are thick and ugly too go out with me"

I don't know if one or more of the above apply in your case. But it's
perfectly legal.

There are only a few limited specifed grounds on which it is illegal to
discriminate.
For example, Race or Gender.

IANAL, etc, etc ( but am married to one! )

--
Ron

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is like
saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

It's not because you is black, mate. It's because you is a ****.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is like
saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

It's not because you is black, mate. It's because you is a ****.

Respect Mon, respect.

On 2007-01-05 13:36:46 +0000, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Newshound wrote:
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good
prices on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection,
just a happy customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Thanks, recommendations always good. But......

"This site is for Corgi members only !!
We reserve the right to charge 25% extra for non-members"

Is this illegal to discriminate against a section of society? It is
like saying if you are black you pay 25% more.

No it isn't specifically. There is supposed to be legislation
originating from EU Directives on the subject in regard to certain
kinds of commercial competition, discounting and so on, but it's not
applicable for the kind of transaction here, as far as I am aware.

However.... 0/10 for market positioning.

Rather than saying

"This site is for CORGI members only!!. We reserve the right to
charge 25% extra for non-members"

they could have said

"Discounts for CORGI members"

That way Joe Public wouldn't have felt affronted (because it's common
practice in trade outlets to give trade discounts) and CORGI people
would still be happy.

Several trade outlets have moved to an account and loyalty card
arrangement (e.g. Travis Perkins) whereby
the customer is supposed to get more consistent discount on what he
buys, presumably based on volume of business.

Quite a number of different trade outlets claim that their trade
customers moan because the places are selling to
retail customers at the same discount levels and prices that they can
get. OTOH, said trade places want to address as much of the market
as they can, and that is price competitive.

One simple solution is for retail customers to go to trade places at
times when trade people typically are not there - often mid morning or
mid afternoon are good times. In those circumstances, it is more
likely that a retail customer will get a better price - but of course
needs to ask.

However.... 0/10 for market positioning.

Rather than saying

"This site is for CORGI members only!!. We reserve the right to charge
25% extra for non-members"

they could have said

"Discounts for CORGI members"

Don't disagree, but the market is the market and I went for the lowest price
I could find after a certain amount of trawling around. The web site is
adequate and the service was spot on. I expect they do most of their
business with the trade and perhaps some of the trade appreciate that
strategy.

In message , Newshound
writes
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good prices
on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection, just a happy
customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Ah - Phil

Just round the corner from me

He can be quite good, but he does have his cowboy side, so caveat empor,
as they say

.... he's a customer of mine

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Newshound
writes
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good prices
on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection, just a happy
customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Ah - Phil

Just round the corner from me

He can be quite good, but he does have his cowboy side, so caveat empor,
as they say

... he's a customer of mine

--
geoff

Well Caveat Emptor is always a good principle. I try to post good
experiences as well as bad. When I have a spot more time I'll post a
description of the fault, and the fun I had tracing it. Even if there hadn't
been a board fault I would not have been too unhappy at getting a
refurbished one from you before I reached the valve, because that eliminated
one variable.

Of course if I costed my time properly it would probably have been no more
expensive to have had a plumber who would have started with the thermistor
(say £30) then the board (say £200) then the gas valve (say £150), at which
point it would have worked and I would have been listening to some guff
about how all these parts were degrading.

In message , Newshound
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Newshound
writes
These people carry a fair range of boiler spares and have very good prices
on Honeywell gas valves. Next day delivery. No connection, just a happy
customer.

www.abcotuk.co.uk

Ah - Phil

Just round the corner from me

He can be quite good, but he does have his cowboy side, so caveat empor,
as they say

... he's a customer of mine

--
geoff

Well Caveat Emptor

Yes, err sticky kbd

is always a good principle. I try to post good
experiences as well as bad. When I have a spot more time I'll post a
description of the fault, and the fun I had tracing it. Even if there hadn't
been a board fault I would not have been too unhappy at getting a
refurbished one from you before I reached the valve, because that eliminated
one variable.

Of course if I costed my time properly it would probably have been no more
expensive to have had a plumber who would have started with the thermistor
(say £30) then the board (say £200) then the gas valve (say £150), at which
point it would have worked and I would have been listening to some guff
about how all these parts were degrading.

Better stil would have been to take a diagnostic approach rather than
swapping bits in ascending order till it works

measuring the voltage is better than swapping and hoping





--
geoff

On Jan 6, 9:35 pm, raden wrote:
Better stil would have been to take a diagnostic approach rather than
swapping bits in ascending order till it works

measuring the voltage is better than swapping and hoping

True. But then again, somebody posted some information in a memorable
thread at the DIYNOT discussion forum that seemed to indicate that a
diagnostic approach, the use of a meter or joined-up thought was beyond
abilities of some/many CORGI registered boiler technicians. This
provoked a great outburst of abuse from the Corgis and the thread was
deleted.

So the OP was probably better off with his trial & error approach than
picking a random Corgi out of Yellow Pages.

I think it started off something like this;


Gold medal went to "B"

who came to us with a fan which "doesn't work, I've tested it and there
are volts there"

FAN WORKS

"What did you test it with?"

"A neon screwdriver"

That could have been an expensive mistake passed on to the customer



Silver medal goes to "K"

K is in his late 50's and been with BG since apprenticeship, but left
to "do his own thing" a few years ago

phones up -

"I have an old 24v McLaren valve here, will the valve open if you have
less than 24v on it ?"

"Err .. How much less ?"

"I'm not sure, how do you measure it"


Bronze goes to "P"

(Must have been a fitter for 25 years)

"Should it stop sparking when the pilot is alight"

Not a good day for the Guardians of the Sacred Knowledge (GOSK) today

In message . com, Aidan
writes


On Jan 6, 9:35 pm, raden wrote:
Better stil would have been to take a diagnostic approach rather than
swapping bits in ascending order till it works

measuring the voltage is better than swapping and hoping

True. But then again, somebody posted some information in a memorable
thread at the DIYNOT discussion forum that seemed to indicate that a
diagnostic approach, the use of a meter or joined-up thought was beyond
abilities of some/many CORGI registered boiler technicians. This
provoked a great outburst of abuse from the Corgis and the thread was
deleted.

So the OP was probably better off with his trial & error approach than
picking a random Corgi out of Yellow Pages.

I think it started off something like this;


Gold medal went to "B"

who came to us with a fan which "doesn't work, I've tested it and there
are volts there"

FAN WORKS

"What did you test it with?"

"A neon screwdriver"

That could have been an expensive mistake passed on to the customer



Silver medal goes to "K"

K is in his late 50's and been with BG since apprenticeship, but left
to "do his own thing" a few years ago

phones up -

"I have an old 24v McLaren valve here, will the valve open if you have
less than 24v on it ?"

"Err .. How much less ?"

"I'm not sure, how do you measure it"


Bronze goes to "P"

(Must have been a fitter for 25 years)

"Should it stop sparking when the pilot is alight"

Not a good day for the Guardians of the Sacred Knowledge (GOSK) today

I can't think who that might have been ...

My primary reason for going into Diynot is to wind them up


--
geoff

"Aidan" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 6, 9:35 pm, raden wrote:
Better stil would have been to take a diagnostic approach rather than
swapping bits in ascending order till it works

measuring the voltage is better than swapping and hoping

True. But then again, somebody posted some information in a memorable
thread at the DIYNOT discussion forum that seemed to indicate that a
diagnostic approach, the use of a meter or joined-up thought was beyond
abilities of some/many CORGI registered boiler technicians. This
provoked a great outburst of abuse from the Corgis and the thread was
deleted.

So the OP was probably better off with his trial & error approach than
picking a random Corgi out of Yellow Pages.

Actually, I did take a diagnostic approach, I was pointing out that many
plumbers might not have the equipment and time. I had a voltmeter on the gas
stop valve (as well as the modureg). The problem was an intermittent open
circuit on the gas stop valve solenoid, worse when hot, so that if the CH
shut down it would often not open. You have a ten or twenty second window at
this point, typically after half an hour running OK, when you can watch the
control board doing going through the lighting sequence and tripping out
after three tries. Ironically my error was not failing to measure voltage,
it was that I should have been measuring the current (which would have
revealed the fault). But it is a bit more awkward to measure current,
particularly on a mains solenoid, when you have a range of test leads with
pins, sockets, and croc clips floating around inside the boiler. (The
current would be too low for my clip-on meter). The fault did become
revealed when it failed to earth and started tripping the ELCB. To be fair
to Halsted, the "flow chart" for fault diagnosis on this boiler really isn't
bad, but this particular fault, being intermittent, was not easy to trace.

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:57:09 -0800, Aidan wrote:

On Jan 6, 9:35 pm, raden wrote:
Better stil would have been to take a diagnostic approach rather than
swapping bits in ascending order till it works

measuring the voltage is better than swapping and hoping

True. But then again, somebody posted some information in a memorable
thread at the DIYNOT discussion forum that seemed to indicate that a
diagnostic approach, the use of a meter or joined-up thought was beyond
abilities of some/many CORGI registered boiler technicians. This
provoked a great outburst of abuse from the Corgis and the thread was
deleted.

So the OP was probably better off with his trial & error approach than
picking a random Corgi out of Yellow Pages.

I think it started off something like this;


Gold medal went to "B"

who came to us with a fan which "doesn't work, I've tested it and there
are volts there"

FAN WORKS

"What did you test it with?"

"A neon screwdriver"

That could have been an expensive mistake passed on to the customer


Being registered required that you have ACS exam passes in gas fitting
these are primarily about working safely with gas and the safety aspects of
appliances.

Whilst you wouldn't get very far if you had no knowledge of boilers it is
fair to say that system diagnosis is not even a minor focus of the
syllabus. This applies to both inside and outside the boiler's casing.

The ability of specific members of CORGI to diagnose a fault is
essentially a random matter and dependent on matters outside of the scope
of CORGI registration. (Amazing isn't it).

In fact a technically educated individual may well have a better general
strategy to diagnosing a faulty boiler than any one particular registered
fitter.

In fact to this end I'm preparing a FAQ (about about 30% through) on
Boiler Diagnosis.

Here's a taster with specific reference to the above:

.... Try to remember that the problems with the most catastrophic impact
(like the whole things appears totally dead) usually have the simplest
solutions. The kind of problems we would like to avoid at all costs are
the ones that are intermittent or difficult to reproduce: overheat or
flame failure lockouts that occur one or twice a month.

8.Don't blindly trust your instruments. If your get readings that don't
make sense, you may be using your equipment in a way which is confusing
it. In particular a DMM or neon screwdriver can give very weird results
especially if the are connected to a wire that is currently connected to
nothing.

9.Realise that coincidences do happen but are relatively rare.
Usually, there is a common cause....


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

"Aidan" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 6, 9:35 pm, raden wrote:
Better stil would have been to take a diagnostic approach rather than
swapping bits in ascending order till it works

measuring the voltage is better than swapping and hoping

True. But then again, somebody posted some information in a memorable
thread at the DIYNOT discussion forum that seemed to indicate that a
diagnostic approach, the use of a meter or joined-up thought was beyond
abilities of some/many CORGI registered boiler technicians. This
provoked a great outburst of abuse from the Corgis and the thread was
deleted.

So the OP was probably better off with his trial & error approach than
picking a random Corgi out of Yellow Pages.

I think it started off something like this;


Gold medal went to "B"

who came to us with a fan which "doesn't work, I've tested it and there
are volts there"

FAN WORKS

"What did you test it with?"

"A neon screwdriver"

That could have been an expensive mistake passed on to the customer



Silver medal goes to "K"

K is in his late 50's and been with BG since apprenticeship, but left
to "do his own thing" a few years ago

phones up -

"I have an old 24v McLaren valve here, will the valve open if you have
less than 24v on it ?"

"Err .. How much less ?"

"I'm not sure, how do you measure it"


Bronze goes to "P"

(Must have been a fitter for 25 years)

"Should it stop sparking when the pilot is alight"

Not a good day for the Guardians of the Sacred Knowledge (GOSK) today

Maxie, thats is fabulous. Did you write that? You are my hero today. What
a man! (I think a man)