What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

cheers
Norman

In article .com,
"normanwisdom" writes:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double glazing is usually the longest payback of just about
any insulation improvement measures you might take, and in
many cases it will never payback. Without giving a lot more
information about the age, construction, size and insulation
in your home as it currently stands, this is just impossible
to even guess.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"normanwisdom" wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double Glazing (Low-E Glazing is best) - COST: Around £3,000 - SAVING:
Around £20 - £35
Source: http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/insulation.htm

It takes years to recoup the cost of installation of DG. But less heat lost
is only one of several benefits.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"normanwisdom" writes:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double glazing is usually the longest payback of just about
any insulation improvement measures you might take, and in
many cases it will never payback. Without giving a lot more
information about the age, construction, size and insulation
in your home as it currently stands, this is just impossible
to even guess.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Without challenging any of Andrew's observations regarding 'pay-back';
double-glazing _does_ improve the 'comfort' feeling of any room into which
it's installed. Typically one 'finds' square-metres of rooms that previously
were draft/cold/uncomfortable habitable. .
What vale you personally place on this comfort is your affair.

--

Brian

Now I'd like to replace the glazing in my house built around 1860 with
double glazed wooden panes, though these have multiple panes, thin side
panels with small corner panes.

I'm told by the would-be maker that 25mm spaced glazing panes are
incompatible though he could glue the appropriate moulding on to a
single pane and had been persuaded to by another customer in the past.

I know there are firms promoting these window styles as replacements
Would anyone know if this glue-on approach is considered satisfactory?

Jeff


Handy wrote:
"normanwisdom" wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double Glazing (Low-E Glazing is best) - COST: Around £3,000 - SAVING:
Around £20 - £35
Source: http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/insulation.htm

It takes years to recoup the cost of installation of DG. But less heat lost
is only one of several benefits.

normanwisdom wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost

somewhere between £200 and £2000 per annum.

and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

not nearly as much as you might suppose.

If you have fairly small draught free wooden windows, its not worth doing.

If you have rotten, old and draughty ones,huge picture windows, or
those dreadful Crittal steel things that invite condensation, bin them ;-)

In general the most cost benefit is draught proofing doors and windows
and old suspended wooden floors.

Then do roof insulation, because its really cheap and its a major heat
loss on older houses.

After that, cavity wall insulation nets you more than windows, unless
your rooms are mainly windows. Its probably similar in price too.

Floor insulation comes next, but its expensive and not the worst cause
of heat loss..suspended floor are though. They are well worth insulating.

Then if uoi have an old boiler, get a better one..a 10% risee in
efficiency can be a 10% or more fuel reduction.

Whats left to do? Oh. Double glazing. Nah. Thick lined curtains is
better and more attractive.

cheers
Norman

Jeff Mowatt wrote:
Now I'd like to replace the glazing in my house built around 1860 with
double glazed wooden panes, though these have multiple panes, thin side
panels with small corner panes.

I'm told by the would-be maker that 25mm spaced glazing panes are
incompatible though he could glue the appropriate moulding on to a
single pane and had been persuaded to by another customer in the past.

I know there are firms promoting these window styles as replacements
Would anyone know if this glue-on approach is considered satisfactory?

Jeff



It takes years to recoup the cost of installation of DG. But less heat lost
is only one of several benefits.

Sounds like the original windows are well worth keeping - possibly a
disaster to spoil them. Stick on bits etc is totally crap bodge don't
do it. If you want to save money take another look at Handy's link
http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/insulation.htm

cheers
Norm

Handy wrote:
"normanwisdom" wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double Glazing (Low-E Glazing is best) - COST: Around £3,000 - SAVING:
Around £20 - £35
Source: http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/insulation.htm

It takes years to recoup the cost of installation of DG. But less heat lost
is only one of several benefits.


The biggest benefit is usually in case where the original winbodws are

- draughty

- Critall steel

- Really large

My mothers 1953 house had all three, and it benefitted from DG units
enormously.

Conversely I have fitted SG lead lights to this new house, and the
windows are small, draught free, and oak framed, and were good enough
with extra insulation elsewhere, to get past the building regs 2000..

Fitted with thick lined curtains, I have 8 " of air insulation now
behind the curtains..just as good as DG with the curtains closed..

Jeff Mowatt wrote:
Now I'd like to replace the glazing in my house built around 1860 with
double glazed wooden panes, though these have multiple panes, thin side
panels with small corner panes.

I'm told by the would-be maker that 25mm spaced glazing panes are
incompatible though he could glue the appropriate moulding on to a
single pane and had been persuaded to by another customer in the past.

I know there are firms promoting these window styles as replacements
Would anyone know if this glue-on approach is considered satisfactory?

Yes, there is a problem with DG and small panes, in that the edges of DG
panes have to be a certain side, and you need fairly chunky frames to
hide them.

I had the same probs with my leaded lights - the 'glazing' bars' looked
fake and naff, so I went single glazed instead.

You are allowed to replace like with like, or slightly better, so I'd
get some more draughtproof single glazed ones..if the BCO gets stroppy
install demountable secondary glazing, and remove it when he has gone.

I'd simply get a joiner to make up replicas of what you have, in a
decent wood..Iroco is nice, stable and not too expensive, and if you
don't like the red color, paint it.


Jeff


Handy wrote:
"normanwisdom" wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.
Double Glazing (Low-E Glazing is best) - COST: Around £3,000 - SAVING:
Around £20 - £35
Source: http://www.nef.org.uk/energyadvice/insulation.htm

It takes years to recoup the cost of installation of DG. But less heat lost
is only one of several benefits.

In message .com,
normanwisdom writes
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Did you look for the thread we had a couple of days ago ?

--
geoff

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article .com,
"normanwisdom" writes:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double glazing is usually the longest payback of just about
any insulation improvement measures you might take, and in
many cases it will never payback. Without giving a lot more
information about the age, construction, size and insulation
in your home as it currently stands, this is just impossible
to even guess.

Indeed.
My current windows (13 of, overall area of 15m^2) lose about 700w
at an average of 10C delta.

At best, double glazing might take this to 200W, for a total of maybe
500W of energy saving.

This is perhaps 5000Kwh/year.
Or at 4p/Kwh, 200 quid or so a year.
Going to take a long time to pay back several thousand pounds.

In article .com,
normanwisdom wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

It depends on what type of double glazing. New windows with double glazing
might never recoup their cost. Secondary glazing might quite quickly.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article .com,
"normanwisdom" writes:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double glazing is usually the longest payback of just about
any insulation improvement measures you might take, and in
many cases it will never payback. Without giving a lot more
information about the age, construction, size and insulation
in your home as it currently stands, this is just impossible
to even guess.

Indeed.
My current windows (13 of, overall area of 15m^2) lose about 700w
at an average of 10C delta.

At best, double glazing might take this to 200W, for a total of maybe
500W of energy saving.

This is perhaps 5000Kwh/year.
Or at 4p/Kwh, 200 quid or so a year.
Going to take a long time to pay back several thousand pounds.

If the present windows are in good condition there is little need to
replace them to get double glazing. Just pop down to a glazier that
makes DG units and ask how much rebated panels would cost.

You will need to take care with opening lights as the weight in the
sashes will double, triple if you have older, thin glass (unlikely but
possible. In the good old days 3 mm -or rather its imperial equivalent,
was used mostly characterised by poor clarity as it might predate float
glass.)

You can get around this with an extra hinge and by ensuring a couple of
packers give the pane a diagonal bearing that transmits the weight from
the top outside corner to the bottom inside one.

Stepping the glass allows the inside section to rest on top of the
frame's profile. In other words the outer glass panel will sit in the
rebate and the inner will come into the room by the thickness of the
inner glass panel and the gap in the unit.

Prices for DG glass panes are typically £50 to £100 each depending on
the size of the pane and the thickness of the gap in them.

Weatherlawyer wrote:

Ian Stirling wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article .com,
"normanwisdom" writes:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

Double glazing is usually the longest payback of just about
any insulation improvement measures you might take, and in
many cases it will never payback. Without giving a lot more
information about the age, construction, size and insulation
in your home as it currently stands, this is just impossible
to even guess.

Indeed.
My current windows (13 of, overall area of 15m^2) lose about 700w
at an average of 10C delta.

At best, double glazing might take this to 200W, for a total of maybe
500W of energy saving.

This is perhaps 5000Kwh/year.
Or at 4p/Kwh, 200 quid or so a year.
Going to take a long time to pay back several thousand pounds.

If the present windows are in good condition there is little need to
replace them to get double glazing. Just pop down to a glazier that
makes DG units and ask how much rebated panels would cost.

Very true.

I'm considering doing either:

A) Secondary glazing of 2mm polystyrene with slow air feed of dry air
from an aquarium pump mounted outside, to avoid condensation.

B) Making up new window 'tops' - with better sealing to the bases, and
putting in completely new units.

C) Obtaining 3 or 4 8*4 sheets of glass, and making up my own sealed
units. (or mostly so, with the aid of the aquarium pump)

The existing wooden windows are _mostly_ in good condition, and those
that are not, I imagine I could without too much difficulty replace -
the section is not that complex.

D - splash out thousands on new windows simply isn't on the cards.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
normanwisdom wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

It depends on what type of double glazing. New windows with double glazing
might never recoup their cost. Secondary glazing might quite quickly.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I was asking for "typical average" figures. It seems that £500 pa for
heating and £25pa for saving by DG would be about right. There was an
oft-quoted rule of thumb that window lost 10% and DG halved that.
Interestingly although the % loss would be higher for a well insulated
house the actual heat lost would be the same AOTBE i.e. a bigger cut of
a smaller bill, and the value of DG still dubious.

cheers
Norman

On 23 Nov 2006 06:46:03 -0800 someone who may be "normanwisdom"
wrote this:-

Interestingly although the % loss would be higher for a well insulated
house the actual heat lost would be the same AOTBE i.e. a bigger cut of
a smaller bill, and the value of DG still dubious.

Like many things, it depends on what someone wants to do. If they
want to look at in terms of simple payback period then double
glazing is usually not a good investment. However, there are many
other reasons for doing something.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article .com,
normanwisdom wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
normanwisdom wrote:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.

It depends on what type of double glazing. New windows with double
glazing might never recoup their cost. Secondary glazing might quite
quickly.


I was asking for "typical average" figures. It seems that £500 pa for
heating and £25pa for saving by DG would be about right.

If it were 25 gbp pa then there would be tiny if any saving after loss of
interest on the capital was taken into account - even less if finance was
involved.

There was an oft-quoted rule of thumb that window lost 10% and DG halved
that. Interestingly although the % loss would be higher for a well
insulated house the actual heat lost would be the same AOTBE i.e. a
bigger cut of a smaller bill, and the value of DG still dubious.

I dislike rule of thumb quotes for this sort of thing - many take them as
gospel.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23 Nov 2006 06:46:03 -0800 Normanwisdom wrote :
I was asking for "typical average" figures. It seems that £500 pa
for heating and £25pa for saving by DG would be about right.

I did a quick 'what if' on our SuperHeat program and it suggests
that changing single glazed windows to low-E double glazed (U-value
2.1) will save about £2/m2/yr. That's on a SAP-2005 standardised
fuel price of 1.63p per kW so you would need to multiply this by the
current cost of the energy used.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

20 years ago, I bought a packet of sellotape secondary glazing film.
It was the type that you stick to the frame with double sided tape,
and then shrink with a hair drier to form a tight almost invisible
film. I did a few windows with it, and it lasted a couple of years,
usually until someone/something poked a hole in it or tore it.
However, I still have one piece left after 20 years, on the window
above the front door, where it's out of harm's way. It's still as
good as the day it was fitted. As someone pointed out when I
mentioned this here a while back, that's longer than some real
double glazing lasts.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Ian Stirling wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article .com,
"normanwisdom" writes:
What is a typical average home heating cost and what is a typical
saving by DG installation? I googled this but there is loads of
misinformation from DG companies.
Double glazing is usually the longest payback of just about
any insulation improvement measures you might take, and in
many cases it will never payback. Without giving a lot more
information about the age, construction, size and insulation
in your home as it currently stands, this is just impossible
to even guess.
Indeed.
My current windows (13 of, overall area of 15m^2) lose about 700w
at an average of 10C delta.

At best, double glazing might take this to 200W, for a total of maybe
500W of energy saving.

This is perhaps 5000Kwh/year.
Or at 4p/Kwh, 200 quid or so a year.
Going to take a long time to pay back several thousand pounds.
If the present windows are in good condition there is little need to
replace them to get double glazing. Just pop down to a glazier that
makes DG units and ask how much rebated panels would cost.

Very true.

I'm considering doing either:

A) Secondary glazing of 2mm polystyrene with slow air feed of dry air
from an aquarium pump mounted outside, to avoid condensation.

B) Making up new window 'tops' - with better sealing to the bases, and
putting in completely new units.

C) Obtaining 3 or 4 8*4 sheets of glass, and making up my own sealed
units. (or mostly so, with the aid of the aquarium pump)

The existing wooden windows are _mostly_ in good condition, and those
that are not, I imagine I could without too much difficulty replace -
the section is not that complex.

D - splash out thousands on new windows simply isn't on the cards.

E - spend a very little money on very good quality draughtproof strips
and spend rather a lot more on lined, and INTERLINED curtains. They look
better than secondary glazing - and indeed double glazing IMHO and if
they are thick, heavy and extend a fair bit below the sill, will trap a
lovely insulating wedge of air behind them.

They WILL lead to a bit of condensation on cold days tho..the windows
themselves will be a tad colder.

I haven't data to back it up, but I reckon they are as good as triple
glazed units..SG with thick curtains.

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:38:54 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and spend rather a lot more on lined, and INTERLINED curtains. They
look better than secondary glazing - and indeed double glazing IMHO and
if they are thick, heavy and extend a fair bit below the sill, will
trap a lovely insulating wedge of air behind them.

Agreed, people these days don't appreciate that decent curtains can make
a considerable difference to the heat lost through a window when they are
drawn closed.

Two pairs is even better. May only be practical if you have deep reveals
though. One thick lined pair close to the actual window and a second pair
possibly over the entire reveal opening.

I haven't data to back it up, but I reckon they are as good as triple
glazed units..SG with thick curtains.

I think that would be pushing it a little bit but certainly on a par with
double glazing, *provided* that the SG is well draft proofed.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 22 Nov 2006 21:25:11 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

My current windows (13 of, overall area of 15m^2) lose about 700w
at an average of 10C delta.

At best, double glazing might take this to 200W, for a total of maybe
500W of energy saving.

This is perhaps 5000Kwh/year.
Or at 4p/Kwh, 200 quid or so a year.
Going to take a long time to pay back several thousand pounds.

Backing up my long held view that most of the observed savings from
double glazing come from the reduction in draughts associated with
improvements in weatherstripping - the only other motivation for
having DG being the apathy related to painting/staining old window
frames. 30 quid on a few rolls of weatherstrip and half a day with a
stanley knife can give payback in literally weeks in a windy cold
climate.


--

Matt wrote:
On 22 Nov 2006 21:25:11 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

My current windows (13 of, overall area of 15m^2) lose about 700w
at an average of 10C delta.

At best, double glazing might take this to 200W, for a total of maybe
500W of energy saving.

This is perhaps 5000Kwh/year.
Or at 4p/Kwh, 200 quid or so a year.
Going to take a long time to pay back several thousand pounds.

Backing up my long held view that most of the observed savings from
double glazing come from the reduction in draughts associated with
improvements in weatherstripping - the only other motivation for
having DG being the apathy related to painting/staining old window
frames. 30 quid on a few rolls of weatherstrip and half a day with a
stanley knife can give payback in literally weeks in a windy cold
climate.


That was my experince also.

I lived in a coldish single brick 1900 cottage for a long while. On the
Fens.

I took it in hand, draughtproofed most of the exterior doors, and then
laid hardboard over the suspended floor..instant rise in temp.

I bit of cork here on some walls tamed the worst of the condensation and
a couple of coal fires kept it cosy.

Then the landlord decided that rather than repair the window frames
which were fairly rotten, he would put DG in. Well it certainly helped
with the draughts, but that was all.

With the single brick walls, there wasn't much difference in room temps
on a non windy day. Classic case for drylining, but I moved...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
snip
I'm considering doing either:

A) Secondary glazing of 2mm polystyrene with slow air feed of dry air
from an aquarium pump mounted outside, to avoid condensation.

B) Making up new window 'tops' - with better sealing to the bases, and
snip
E - spend a very little money on very good quality draughtproof strips

I've done the draughtproofing thing - slightly greased masking tape on one
side of the window, bead of silicone down the other, close, leave 48 hours.
Works well.

and spend rather a lot more on lined, and INTERLINED curtains. They look
better than secondary glazing - and indeed double glazing IMHO and if

I'm actually strongly considering completely insulated shutters.

Currently the windows are in a slightly angled-out opening in 50cm
walls.

I'm adding 10cm of rockwool to the walls.
In most cases, next to the window, I could instead put 5cm of kingspan,
with another 5cm bit of kingspan inside the wall, that can slide out in
some manner, and completely seal the window opening.

I'm not sure exactly how this could best be done.

If I was to make my own DG units, they'd basically be of the externally
pumped sort - supplied with external air, and basically in one bit with
the windowframe.

Take a bit of window frame, rebate both sides, put aluminium tape over
the inside, paint white, a little sealant, and job done.

They WILL lead to a bit of condensation on cold days tho..the windows
themselves will be a tad colder.

I haven't data to back it up, but I reckon they are as good as triple

Condensation isn't a problem it's a GOOD THING to have - if you have
trad windows. They usually have some sort of gap at the cill or at the
meeting rails in sashes - the condensation will drain down and OUT
throught the gap: trad windows become passive de-humidifers.
The Victorians new all about it and esp in public buildings you can
find various systems for trapping and draining off condensation. Drip
grooves and weepholes - sometimes elaborate brass installations,
sometimes dead simple. Very likely to have been filled in and made
useless by ignorant tradesmen of C20.
The "De-Humidifier" was virtually unheard the advent of until the
plastic DG and draught-sealed window - which make condensation into a
serious problem.

cheers
Jacob