In this months IEE review there is an interesting article on small scale
CHP for domestic installation in the UK. There are some links there to
people like www.whispergen.com , and some corroborating papers
suggesting 30% reduction in domestic energy bills ! I want some. Does
anyone else have any detailed knowledge of the price of such things ?

Steve

"Steve" wrote in message
...

In this months IEE review there is an interesting article on small scale
CHP for domestic installation in the UK.

Is this review on-line?

There are some links there to
people like www.whispergen.com , and some corroborating papers
suggesting 30% reduction in domestic energy bills ! I want some. Does
anyone else have any detailed knowledge of the price of such things ?



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"Steve" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"Steve" wrote in message
...


In this months IEE review there is an interesting article on small scale
CHP for domestic installation in the UK.


Is this review on-line?



To my superlative surprise,

http://www.iee.org/OnComms/sector/do...03-4B63-858A7B
711D6E40B8
Hope its of interest.

Thanks. Told me nothing new. Whispergen has been around quite a time
selling marine applications CHP units. They are only a samll NZ company.
They kust have found a manufactrer to produce the unit in bulk. MicroGen
have been promoting their unit for about a year now.

These are not full CHP units. They are to supplement electricity usage
taking and feeding the grid. There running costs will depend on what the
electricity supplier will buy back power from you. To kick start take up it
must be a 1:1 ratio. The take up of these units is the biggest hurdle. As
the article points out, it is ignorance by installers that will be a large
hurdle. They haven't even accepted condensing boilers yet, thinking they
are complex.

Full CHP which can be installed in a remote off-the-grid house is different
in that most use diesel units running on heating oil. These can be very
expensive to run if not on full load. Running a genny just for lights and a
TV is expensive as a lot of energy is wasted. You need to have a large
thermal store to store the heat that would otherwise be wasted, and it must
be turned off at night with battery LV lights and water pump used.



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IMM wrote:
"Steve" wrote in message
...


In this months IEE review there is an interesting article on small scale
CHP for domestic installation in the UK.


Is this review on-line?



To my superlative surprise,
http://www.iee.org/OnComms/sector/download.cfm?ID=22DDEBBB-F303-4B63-858A7B711D6E40B8
Hope its of interest.

Steve

Perhaps I'm missing something but they talk about using wasted
heat to generate electricity. But the best condensing boilers
are already running at 91% efficiency, so there's not much to
reclaim, certainly not 25% ????

It's more like the wasted heat from generating electricity is used to heat
the water. This means that even, say, a 50% efficiency generating
electricity doesn't matter, as (a) gas is a quarter of the price of
electricity and (b) the waste from this heats up your water cylinder anyway
(usually supplemented by a standard burner as well). It's a win-win
situation.

Unfortunately, I can't install it now myself, as I never install first
generation products, and it seems to be in zeroth generation at the moment.
I've plumped for the Bosch Greenstar 28HE instead.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Perhaps I'm missing something but they talk about using wasted
heat to generate electricity. But the best condensing boilers
are already running at 91% efficiency, so there's not much to
reclaim, certainly not 25% ????

It's more like the wasted heat from generating electricity is used to heat
the water. This means that even, say, a 50% efficiency generating
electricity doesn't matter, as (a) gas is a quarter of the price of
electricity and (b) the waste from this heats up your water cylinder
anyway
(usually supplemented by a standard burner as well). It's a win-win
situation.

Unfortunately, I can't install it now myself, as I never install first
generation products, and it seems to be in zeroth generation at the
moment.

-0 generation. The WhisperGen has been around for a while in different
forms.

I've plumped for the Bosch Greenstar 28HE instead.

The first is available later this year, the MicroGen in Spring. The MicroGen
is made by Rinnai in Japan, who make some excellent quality kit, so worth
going for even being first generation. The MicroGen is being tested by about
50 homes, so should be sorted when available.

The MicroGen claims 25% more "total" energy efficiency than a current
condensing boilers. Quite a hype. The recent white energy paper is
indicating that non-condensing boilers will be ruled out as they are not
efficient enough. This creates a problem in fitting boilers in flats and
existing old houses converted to flats. The exhaust plume can be a hell of a
nuisance to neighbours. I'm not sure if the Whispergen CHP boiler gives off
an exhaust plume, but it is sradrad washing machine sized. The wall mounted
MicroGen can certainly be de-plumed with a design re-jig, and I'm sure still
be with the minimum SEDBUK energy rating of the new white paper.


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Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Rick Hughes
wrote:
There was a very long thread on this on UK_Selfbuild ...
lasting many weeks, there are a couple of guys thee who know
about these systems. The consensus was - too early in
development, and hence reliability & cost not there yet.

Perhaps I'm missing something but they talk about using wasted
heat to generate electricity. But the best condensing boilers
are already running at 91% efficiency, so there's not much to
reclaim, certainly not 25% ????

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm


It may be a very good way to heat your house _whilst_ generating
electricty (because you need to).
I doubt it is a better way of to heat your house than a condensing
boiler with correct installation and controls.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:

In article , Rick Hughes
wrote:
There was a very long thread on this on UK_Selfbuild ...
lasting many weeks, there are a couple of guys thee who know
about these systems. The consensus was - too early in
development, and hence reliability & cost not there yet.

Perhaps I'm missing something but they talk about using wasted
heat to generate electricity. But the best condensing boilers
are already running at 91% efficiency, so there's not much to
reclaim, certainly not 25% ????

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm


It may be a very good way to heat your house _whilst_ generating
electricty (because you need to).
I doubt it is a better way of to heat your house than a condensing
boiler with correct installation and controls.

25% more efficient overall in energy. Modulates and must be better. You
don't "need" to generate electricity. You actually sell the surplus back to
the utility company.


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