Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if I
can earn a few bob doing so.

Testers seem to be available for around £250 with a basic pass/fail
function.

Do I need to be certified? (you know what I mean :-) )


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if
I can earn a few bob doing so.

Testers seem to be available for around £250 with a basic pass/fail
function.

Do I need to be certified? (you know what I mean :-) )


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

You definitely need proof of competency, the tester itself needs calibration
regularly. If you want to test everything then you need to spend a lot more
than 250 quid. Indemnity against mistakes and good record keeping are
needed too.

Most businesses use a firm that comes in and tests everything, the usual
sort of fee is three pounds per item.

So my guess is it would be a hard way to get a living.

Mrcheerful (recently did a PAT course)

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if
I can earn a few bob doing so.

Testers seem to be available for around £250 with a basic pass/fail
function.

Do I need to be certified? (you know what I mean :-) )



Yes, you should definitely have certification if offering as a professional
service. It's a C&G 2377-002. I did mine the other month - it's not hard
[1] and is a 1 day course via the IET and a short exam on a subsequent day.
You should not use a pass/go tester (these are for people to do a quick
verification on equipment) - you need to record *actual* numbers on the
inspection sheet (so future inspectors can see if there are any trends
developing).

Here's a pointer (other course providers are available):

http://www.iee.org/Events/Courses/Short/cg2_gen.cfm

Look at something more like a Seaward Europa or at least something that is
fully functional. Testers with computer hook ups or accessories to print
labels and forms will save time but are not essential.

Public liability insurance would be advisable (in case someone trips over
you while you are on their premises - that sort of thing).

Cheers

Tim

[1] Not hard, but you *need* the bloke to go through it as some stuff is not
obvious until you've heard it.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if I
can earn a few bob doing so.

Testers seem to be available for around £250 with a basic pass/fail
function.

Do I need to be certified? (you know what I mean :-) )


I did a PAT (not a PAT testing) course a few years ago at work and it
was a piece of ****, a waste of two days. If I were wanting to set
myself up as you do I think that I would teach myself and just take the
exam.

I think you need to spend about £400 for a reasonable tester though in
practice 90% of faults are found on visual inspection - frayed cords
and wrong fuses. I think that a Go/NOGO tester is perfectly adequate
but the full tester with results entered into a form will make the
customer feel that he is getting a more professional service :-)

The whole process is as much about record keeping as about technology..

Another thing to consider is your attitude to failed appliances. A
lot of customers will expect you to repair the failed appliance.
Whilst that isn't practical for major failures, being prepared to
change a fuse or replace the plug mcould give you an advantages over
competitors who stick to the "you only pay for the testing" line.

And you will get irrate customers who just don't believe that grandads
old reading lamp can possible be unsafe.

The message
from "mrcheerful
." contains these words:

So my guess is it would be a hard way to get a living.

One of the teaching assistants at the kids' school does their PAT
testing. Turned out to be cheaper than outsourcing it - she's
appropriately qualified and IIRC uses suitably calibrated equipment
loaned as a favour to the school by someone.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message
from Tim S contains these words:

[1] Not hard, but you *need* the bloke to go through it as some stuff is not
obvious until you've heard it.

Out of interest - are you supposed to take the backs of such plugs as
you can and check the security of the terminal screws? Checking the fuse
value make sense, of course, and while you're at it checking nothing's
loose would make sense.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message .com
from "dcbwhaley" contains these words:

And you will get irrate customers who just don't believe that grandads
old reading lamp can possible be unsafe.

I don't suppose there are many situations in which Grandad's old reading
lamp would get tested in the first place.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing?

Start by buying a copy of the definitive book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Practice-Ser...460993-9212442

--
Andy

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if I
can earn a few bob doing so.

PAT testing where I work seems to be little more than a visual
inspection. In a previous existence, I was sure that someone
occasionally put a megger across input sockets on some of our computer
servers, but that was stopped after some expensive kit was damaged ;-)

I expect that some "proper" testing should and does take place,
depending on the type of equipment. We can wait weeks for someone to
make up and PAT test a 13A trailing lead, or I can walk into any local
supermarket and buy one, but I am not supposed to use it at work until
the PAT guy has eyeballed it and affixed his sticker. Modesty prevents
me from saying whether my time is expensive enough that we actually
take the unapproved route or not...

[Frankly, anyone on minimum wage would be wasting company money if they
had to wait !]

--
"Next time you wave, use ALL of your fingers!!"

[1] Not hard, but you *need* the bloke to go through it as some stuff is not
obvious until you've heard it.

Can you give us some examples of the not obvious stuff?

Guy King wrote:

The message
from Tim S contains these words:

[1] Not hard, but you *need* the bloke to go through it as some stuff is
[not
obvious until you've heard it.

Out of interest - are you supposed to take the backs of such plugs as
you can and check the security of the terminal screws? Checking the fuse
value make sense, of course, and while you're at it checking nothing's
loose would make sense.


Yes, and to check the fuse is ASTA compliant too.

Cheers

Tim

I expect that some "proper" testing should and does take place,
depending on the type of equipment. We can wait weeks for someone to
make up and PAT test a 13A trailing lead, or I can walk into any local
supermarket and buy one, but I am not supposed to use it at work until
the PAT guy has eyeballed it and affixed his sticker.

Technically, I thought you didn't need to PAT test new stuff in its first
year.

Christian.

On Nov 7, 4:34 pm, "John Laird" wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if I
can earn a few bob doing so.PAT testing where I work seems to be little more than a visual
inspection. In a previous existence, I was sure that someone
occasionally put a megger across input sockets on some of our computer
servers, but that was stopped after some expensive kit was damaged ;-)

I expect that some "proper" testing should and does take place,
depending on the type of equipment. We can wait weeks for someone to
make up and PAT test a 13A trailing lead, or I can walk into any local
supermarket and buy one, but I am not supposed to use it at work until
the PAT guy has eyeballed it and affixed his sticker. Modesty prevents

Whenever I've come across PAT testing, there is no requirement for PAT
testing of brand new items.

MBQ

wrote:
On Nov 7, 4:34 pm, "John Laird" wrote:

Whenever I've come across PAT testing, there is no requirement for PAT
testing of brand new items.

I would not be surprised if that were true (as Christian has also
pointed out). There are sound and justified reasons for a rigorous
safety culture where I work, but I do question the need to apparently
demand higher standards of consumer items than any of us would apply in
our homes. And trust me, I love my family way more than I love my work
colleagues, and value my house far above what passes for my office !

--
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion."

wrote:


[1] Not hard, but you *need* the bloke to go through it as some stuff is
[not
obvious until you've heard it.

Can you give us some examples of the not obvious stuff?

Checking for an ASTA marked fuse (mentioned already), knowing when to do
a "soft" test, a "hard" test or (where applicable) a touch current test.

I might remember some more later. Some of the above may be obvious to some,
but they weren't all obvious to most of the folks on my course, me
included.

Actually the handbook is very good (and it is all in there), but they do
draw your attention to the important/more obscure points in the course. I
would say, if you are going to do it 100% as a pro, the course is worth it.
If you were doing it to service your own company then perhaps less so. The
course is a good opportunity to ask specifics of the lecturer(s),
concerning the type of kit you think you are going to encounter.

Our course went into a discussion about what to do with and whether you
would ever encounter a Class 0 appliance[1].


HTH

Tim

[1] A: Old fashioned 240V fairy lights

In article ,
Tim S writes:

Yes, you should definitely have certification if offering as a professional
service. It's a C&G 2377-002. I did mine the other month - it's not hard
[1] and is a 1 day course via the IET and a short exam on a subsequent day.
You should not use a pass/go tester (these are for people to do a quick
verification on equipment) - you need to record *actual* numbers on the
inspection sheet (so future inspectors can see if there are any trends
developing).

Here's a pointer (other course providers are available):

http://www.iee.org/Events/Courses/Short/cg2_gen.cfm

I did 2377-001 and 2377-002 at a local technical college
for a quarter of the price IEE charge for just one of them.

Public liability insurance would be advisable (in case someone trips over
you while you are on their premises - that sort of thing).

Another problem you'll find is a number of companies will
insist you belong to NICEIC in order to do PAT testing
but won't care about you being 2377-002 qualified. This
is completely wrong, but it will still be a problem for you.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
"Christian McArdle" writes:
I expect that some "proper" testing should and does take place,
depending on the type of equipment. We can wait weeks for someone to
make up and PAT test a 13A trailing lead, or I can walk into any local
supermarket and buy one, but I am not supposed to use it at work until
the PAT guy has eyeballed it and affixed his sticker.

Technically, I thought you didn't need to PAT test new stuff in its first
year.

There are no hard and fast rules, just guidelines.
You can start off using the guidelines, but you should modify
those in the light of your experience, e.g. if you are picking
up failures, then you may need to increase testing frequency,
and conversely if you aren't ever finding problems, you could
use this to justify decreasing the testing frequency if you
have appropriate record keeping to show this.

The testing period for different things in different situations
varies enormously, from some things almost never needing testing,
through to other things requiring daily testing (e.g. a fairground
ride). So you can't claim a blanket no need to test new items for
a year.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message , mrcheerful
.. writes

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
o.uk...
Hi

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing? I'm vaguely thinking
of offering it as a service to the 200+ business's on a local estate - if
I can earn a few bob doing so.

Testers seem to be available for around £250 with a basic pass/fail
function.

Do I need to be certified? (you know what I mean :-) )


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

You definitely need proof of competency, the tester itself needs calibration
regularly. If you want to test everything then you need to spend a lot more
than 250 quid. Indemnity against mistakes and good record keeping are
needed too.

Most businesses use a firm that comes in and tests everything, the usual
sort of fee is three pounds per item.

So my guess is it would be a hard way to get a living.

Mrcheerful (recently did a PAT course)

Did you get a PAT on the back ?

--
geoff

Owain wrote:

There is no *requirement* for PATing full stop under H&SAWA (AFAIK)

It's in the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989:

4(2) As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be
maintained so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, such
danger.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Owain wrote:

There is no *requirement* for PATing full stop under H&SAWA (AFAIK)

It's in the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989:

4(2) As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be
maintained so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, such
danger.

Nothing in that paragraph says you have to do PATs to achieve compliance. A
PAT is one way to demonstrate that you have taken steps to comply with the
regulation, but it is not the only way and it is not even applicable to some
equipment covered by that regulation.

Colin Bignell

Owain wrote:

Andy Wade wrote:
Owain wrote:
There is no *requirement* for PATing full stop under H&SAWA (AFAIK)
It's in the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989:

Which IIRC are delegated legislation under H&SAWA

4(2) As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be
maintained so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, such
danger.

Yup, I still don't see the magic words "Portable Appliance Testing with
a PAT Meter"...

Owain

Quite right. The conclusion at my course was that PAT testing is not
required specifically under any legislation, but no-one can really think of
a better way of satisfying "due care" etc. any other way, in the general
case.

In other words, PAT testing is not required verbatim but it's still the best
way currently to meet the safety requirements. At my previous job we did
catch the odd (1 in several thousand) pre-moulded IEC leads where the earth
was not up to scratch, when it was a brand new lead - which is why our
stuff was tested from new. The other reason it was tested on the way in was
to get it on the books, thus knowing when the next due test was.

That is over the top for many sites, but for us it was a suitable procedure
that worked. PAT testing and visual inspections should be applied sensibly
according to the site and conditions - that was drummed into us on the
course. In my view, for a small site, there's more to be said for training
the other staff to visually inspect their own kit on a frequent basis with
reasonable frequencies of formal inspections. Where that is not reliable
(too many staff, staff have cat-like attitudes etc), then it's more
sensible to bring in a stronger by-the-book frequent regime of formal
inspections and testing.

Cheers

Tim

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:

Nothing in that paragraph says you have to do PATs to achieve compliance. A
PAT is one way to demonstrate that you have taken steps to comply with the
regulation, but it is not the only way and it is not even applicable to some
equipment covered by that regulation.

Fair comment, but what other method(s) do you think would satisfy the
HSE, in the context of small appliances? I take it as read that "PAT
testing" is interpreted as set out in the IEE code of practice - i.e.
with as much, in fact more, emphasis on the inspection as on the testing.

Are any other options set out in the HSE's Memorandum of guidance on the
EAWR (a publication I'll admit to not being very familiar with)?

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:

Nothing in that paragraph says you have to do PATs to achieve compliance.
A PAT is one way to demonstrate that you have taken steps to comply with
the regulation, but it is not the only way and it is not even applicable
to some equipment covered by that regulation.

Fair comment, but what other method(s) do you think would satisfy the HSE,
in the context of small appliances?

Over the decades, I have never come across a factory inspector who took the
least interest in portable appliances. They occasionally show an interest in
the wiring of 3-phase machinery, but have always been happy with a look at
the risk assessment file and the information that I worked in the
Engineering Department of an Electricity Board and take personal
responsibility for regular inspections. Things might be different if they
saw anything untoward with any wiring though and the situation might change
as the book learning inspectors replace the hands-on ones.

....
Are any other options set out in the HSE's Memorandum of guidance on the
EAWR (a publication I'll admit to not being very familiar with)?

Long time since I opened that.

Colin Bignell

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Just an idea. Is there much involved in PAT testing?

Yes, a shedload of marketing work. If you can land yourself a regular
gig with a local college / large office etc. then you're laughing.
Otherwise it's a near full-time job to bring in enough work to keep you
busy. There are plenty of "PAT test specialists" around these days,
which usually means a clueless herbert with a logoed-up car (or huge
4x4, oddly) and the idiot's manual clenched firmly in the other hand.

OTOH, the tester is affordable and the two relevant courses are cheap
and commonplace at any tech college. A trained monkey can do them. One
of the faults of PAT testing is that it's dumbed down so that chimps
can indeed cope.

I would hate the idea of "being a PAT tester" all day. If you're
already trotting around suitable premises (i.e. moderately large
commercial, as no-one else bothers) then it could be a useful
profit-making sideline to a more interesting job. Do the sums first
though, and see just how much you could expect to make.

Record rip-off I've seen so far was £20 / item being charged to small
traders for testing by the "official" testing provider for the market.
Now that deal just _stank_ of back-handers.

wrote:

I would hate the idea of "being a PAT tester" all day.

Me too

If you're
already trotting around suitable premises (i.e. moderately large
commercial, as no-one else bothers) then it could be a useful
profit-making sideline to a more interesting job.

That was the idea, I'm moving towards doing more commercial stuff because
there is a large industrial estate a few miles away with 400 business's on
it and I can mail them very cheaply.

Do the sums first
though, and see just how much you could expect to make.

Not sure if £3 per item is that profitable?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Not sure if £3 per item is that profitable?

Well it worked for McDonalds!

£3 is profitable provided that costs are low and volume is high. This
means that:

* You're only doing simple PAT testing
(any mis-fitted plugs or blown fuses have to be chargeable repairs, not
just done as freebies).

* You're doing each test quickly and cheaply. It's a box of cables
presented to you, not a walk through a whole building spending 10
minutes hunting each one down.

* A "customer" isn't just a visit to test one kettle, it's either a
shop walk-in with it, or it's a useful volume at each site you visit.
"Useful" might vary, depending on if you're already going there anyway.
(today's office has about 150 visible PAT-testables that I can see).

wrote:

* A "customer" isn't just a visit to test one kettle, it's either a
shop walk-in with it, or it's a useful volume at each site you visit.
"Useful" might vary, depending on if you're already going there
anyway. (today's office has about 150 visible PAT-testables that I
can see).

Wow! 150? That would be well worth doing at £3 each if I,m on site anyway.

Food for thought.............


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article .com,
"Andy Dingley " writes:
means that:
* You're only doing simple PAT testing
(any mis-fitted plugs or blown fuses have to be chargeable repairs, not
just done as freebies).
* You're doing each test quickly and cheaply. It's a box of cables
presented to you, not a walk through a whole building spending 10
minutes hunting each one down.

You really should walk to the appliance. Part of the test is
to ensure it's suitable for the purpose and the environment.
You might find nothing wrong with a hot air stripper, but if
you actually see it's being used as a hair drier, that's a
PAT test failure. There are lots of possibilities for appliances
which are not appropriately robust for the usage, e.g. a domestic
kettle which is in constant use by an office of 100 people, and
is either going to break before the next PAT test, or is going to
need PAT testing far more often than the employer is prepared to
undertake, in which case it needs replacing with a commercial one
which is designed for that usage. You won't see this unless you
see where it's used.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
wrote:

* A "customer" isn't just a visit to test one kettle, it's either a
shop walk-in with it, or it's a useful volume at each site you visit.
"Useful" might vary, depending on if you're already going there
anyway. (today's office has about 150 visible PAT-testables that I
can see).

Wow! 150? That would be well worth doing at £3 each if I,m on site anyway.

Food for thought.............


When we had our electronics development lab done earlier this year, 6
benches used by 3 Engineers, I think we had over 150 items.

Took the kid doing the testing about 2 hours. Yes it was a joke. Several
items should not have passed really, but did. Money for old rope, ISTR
about 1.20 or 1.50 an item.


BTW, whats the general rule on detachable power leads? We had them
tested as separate items, as they get swapped between gear all the time.

--
steve

The message
from Owain contains these words:

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save her
file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug for her
peecee, no.

Depends whether Sharrun has a nice arse or not.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 2006-11-10 03:34:12 +0000, Guy King said:

The message
from Owain contains these words:

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save
her file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug for
her peecee, no.

Depends whether Sharrun has a nice arse or not.

I think you're confusing her with Traycaayy......

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

You really should walk to the appliance. Part of the test is
to ensure it's suitable for the purpose and the environment.

That much is OK - what I was talking about was the open-ended
invitation to PAT test two dozen appliances (exact serial numbers
listed, all of them must be tested), but with no indication as to where
they are. If you can find it, you can test it. If you can't find it,
you've soon lost your £3.

On Nov 8, 11:21 pm, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
wrote:

I would hate the idea of "being a PAT tester" all day.Me too

If you're
already trotting around suitable premises (i.e. moderately large
commercial, as no-one else bothers) then it could be a useful
profit-making sideline to a more interesting job.That was the idea, I'm moving towards doing more commercial stuff because
there is a large industrial estate a few miles away with 400 business's on
it and I can mail them very cheaply.

Do the sums first
though, and see just how much you could expect to make.Not sure if £3 per item is that profitable?

If it's an office full of PCs on desks then you can also offer the
telephone handset, keyboard and mouse cleaning service at the same
time.

MBQ

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-11-10 03:34:12 +0000, Guy King said:

The message
from Owain contains these words:

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save
her file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug
for her peecee, no.

Depends whether Sharrun has a nice arse or not.

I think you're confusing her with Traycaayy......

Easily done around here - Chatham is the Chav capital of the UK :-)

Next generation will be called Chardonnay-Mercedes and Megan-Storm :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The message k
from "The Medway Handyman" contains
these words:

Next generation will be called Chardonnay-Mercedes and Megan-Storm :-)

There's a small girl round here called Armani. How's that for
aspirational naming?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:12:30 UTC, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-11-10 03:34:12 +0000, Guy King said:

The message
from Owain contains these words:

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save
her file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug
for her peecee, no.

Depends whether Sharrun has a nice arse or not.

I think you're confusing her with Traycaayy......

Easily done around here - Chatham is the Chav capital of the UK :-)

Next generation will be called Chardonnay-Mercedes and Megan-Storm :-)

And that's only the boys....!

When you get to the summer holidays, you can do an article on outdoor
games. e.g. go to Shorne Woods, cut down some trees, take them to
Rochester Bridge and play Pooh Sticks! Lots of stuff on trimming and
shaping for best effect....

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

In message , Owain
writes
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Not sure if £3 per item is that profitable?

If they bring them to you in one room, possibly.

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save
her file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug for
her peecee, no.

Her peecee ?

never heard it called that before

--
geoff

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:12:30 UTC, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-11-10 03:34:12 +0000, Guy King said:

The message
from Owain contains these words:

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save
her file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug
for her peecee, no.

Depends whether Sharrun has a nice arse or not.

I think you're confusing her with Traycaayy......

Easily done around here - Chatham is the Chav capital of the UK :-)

Next generation will be called Chardonnay-Mercedes and Megan-Storm :-)

And that's only the boys....!

When you get to the summer holidays, you can do an article on outdoor
games. e.g. go to Shorne Woods, cut down some trees, take them to
Rochester Bridge and play Pooh Sticks! Lots of stuff on trimming and
shaping for best effect....

Or watching the local intelligentsia setting fire to a litter bin down
the side of Sainsburys

Oh what fun it was watching the fire brigade putting it out


--
geoff

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:12:30 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-11-10 03:34:12 +0000, Guy King said:

The message
from Owain contains these words:

If you have to go round all the offices and wait for Sharrun to save
her file before she lets you crawl under her desk to find the plug
for her peecee, no.

Depends whether Sharrun has a nice arse or not.

I think you're confusing her with Traycaayy......

Easily done around here - Chatham is the Chav capital of the UK :-)

Next generation will be called Chardonnay-Mercedes and Megan-Storm :-)

Or Demi-Marie.

--
Frank Erskine

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:34:03 +0000, Frank Erskine
wrote:


Easily done around here - Chatham is the Chav capital of the UK :-)

Next generation will be called Chardonnay-Mercedes and Megan-Storm :-)

Or Demi-Marie.

Or even :

Bain-Marie

or

Demi-Glace

DG