I know this has been done to death but Googling failed to identify
comment on my particular circumstances.

As part of the run up to a planning application on land in adjoining
ownership, I commissioned and paid for a traffic survey.

The results were passed to a developer in hopes of a joint development
venture. There was no written agreement other than my covering letter.
An initial application using the traffic data and part of my land failed
or was withdrawn. A subsequent application, still using my traffic data
but not requiring any of my land succeeded.

I have managed to stop kicking myself and am now looking for ways to
lever myself back into this project. The land may still be of use to the
eventual builders but this is vastly different from being part of the
successful application:-(

Q1. Assuming the data should not have been used without formal
agreement, can I claim anything more than my actual outlay?

Q2. Are there any other angles I should consider? Unfortunately this
land is some 40m distant and neither the adjoining neighbour, the
developer or the planning authority advised me of either application.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

Do you think this is an oversight on the part of the developer or an
attempt to scam you? If the former, use your undoubted charm to get
back in the loop (or at least some benefit in kind). If the latter, I
should drop hints to the developer about coming up with something about
the development putting your cows off milk production. Having seen the
lane where you live - that must have been one hell of a traffic survey
- 2 horses, 1 dog, 3 chickens!

Hi Tim,

I hope I have understood you correctly. As a photographer for 30 years I
have a basic grasp of reasonable grasp of UK basic copyright law.

I am not offering you legal advice but here's a very general 'rule-of-thumb'
to go by:

FACTS cannot be copyrighted - but the WAY IN WHICH THEY ARE PRESENTED
automatically becomes copyright of the author - or, depending on
circumstances, the person who commissioned the work.

So, if someone has substantially copied the document in which the data you
commisioned has been presented, without permission, you may be able to take
legal action against the infringer.

However, if they have just used the data - whether you paid to have it
collected or not, you most likely won't.

Breach of Contract between yourself and whoever collated the data may be an
issue, but this is another matter entirely.

re.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988...80048_en_1.htm


I hope this helps

Cheers,

Keith



"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
I know this has been done to death but Googling failed to identify comment
on my particular circumstances.

As part of the run up to a planning application on land in adjoining
ownership, I commissioned and paid for a traffic survey.

The results were passed to a developer in hopes of a joint development
venture. There was no written agreement other than my covering letter. An
initial application using the traffic data and part of my land failed or
was withdrawn. A subsequent application, still using my traffic data but
not requiring any of my land succeeded.

I have managed to stop kicking myself and am now looking for ways to lever
myself back into this project. The land may still be of use to the
eventual builders but this is vastly different from being part of the
successful application:-(

Q1. Assuming the data should not have been used without formal agreement,
can I claim anything more than my actual outlay?

Q2. Are there any other angles I should consider? Unfortunately this land
is some 40m distant and neither the adjoining neighbour, the developer or
the planning authority advised me of either application.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

Keith (Dorset) wrote:

So, if someone has substantially copied the document in which the data you
commisioned has been presented, without permission, you may be able to take
legal action against the infringer.

To get a tenner in recompense? I'd be surprised if one copy were worth
suing over.


NT

In message . com,
" writes
Do you think this is an oversight on the part of the developer or an
attempt to scam you? If the former, use your undoubted charm to get
back in the loop (or at least some benefit in kind). If the latter, I
should drop hints to the developer about coming up with something about
the development putting your cows off milk production. Having seen the
lane where you live - that must have been one hell of a traffic survey
- 2 horses, 1 dog, 3 chickens!

No chickens. I doubt if the original intention was to remove us from the
loop but by demolishing a house different sight lines meant our land was
not essential to the project.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

In message , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes

Hi Tim,

I hope I have understood you correctly. As a photographer for 30 years I
have a basic grasp of reasonable grasp of UK basic copyright law.

I am not offering you legal advice but here's a very general 'rule-of-thumb'
to go by:

FACTS cannot be copyrighted - but the WAY IN WHICH THEY ARE PRESENTED
automatically becomes copyright of the author - or, depending on
circumstances, the person who commissioned the work.

So, if someone has substantially copied the document in which the data you
commisioned has been presented, without permission, you may be able to take
legal action against the infringer.

Yes. The data has been copied in support of a planning application
without my knowledge or permission. Does inferred permission to use the
data on one occasion allow use on other occasions?

However, if they have just used the data - whether you paid to have it
collected or not, you most likely won't.

Breach of Contract between yourself and whoever collated the data may be an
issue, but this is another matter entirely.

No. They were not involved beyond collating the original data. I
supplied a copy for what was intended to be a joint application.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
I know this has been done to death but Googling failed to identify
comment on my particular circumstances.

So that's where it went! Sorry aimed at uk.legal:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Keith (Dorset)"
writes

Hi Tim,

I hope I have understood you correctly. As a photographer for 30 years I
have a basic grasp of reasonable grasp of UK basic copyright law.

I am not offering you legal advice but here's a very general 'rule-of-thumb'
to go by:

FACTS cannot be copyrighted - but the WAY IN WHICH THEY ARE PRESENTED
automatically becomes copyright of the author - or, depending on
circumstances, the person who commissioned the work.

//snip//

Yes. The data has been copied in support of a planning application
without my knowledge or permission. Does inferred permission to use the
data on one occasion allow use on other occasions?

IANAL, but depends what was agreed - that was in writing wasn't it?


However, if they have just used the data - whether you paid to have it
collected or not, you most likely won't.

Breach of Contract between yourself and whoever collated the data may be an
issue, but this is another matter entirely.

there +could+ be 2 interlinked copyrights here - yours and the the
owner of the results of the collation.


No. They were not involved beyond collating the original data. I
supplied a copy for what was intended to be a joint application.

You'd really do best posting in one of the legal groups, though by all
accounts advice quality is variable there. However SFAIUI the
copyright holder with money to pay lawyers is in quite a powerful
position. Even a simple reference or quotation can be banned by
injunction. Robert Maxwell got away with £££££m using these laws.

It's possible there's other rights such as design copyright and
contract infringment which a smart lawyer might pick up on for you, but
you need the finance to pursue your case. Might be better to see if
you can make an alternative proposal which puts more money in the
builder's pocket whilst at the same time lining yours. Could you
suggest a way of fitting in an extra house using your land?

Bear in mind that your loss for legal compensation purposes is likely
to be just the cost of your survey & associated work: loss of your hope
for £££ gain won't come into it (unless that is there is/was an
underlying formal agreement - which doesn't have to be in writing, but
its existence must be provable - between you to undertake the
development).

HTH

In message om, jim
writes
Yes. The data has been copied in support of a planning application
without my knowledge or permission. Does inferred permission to use the
data on one occasion allow use on other occasions?

IANAL, but depends what was agreed - that was in writing wasn't it?

No:-(

there +could+ be 2 interlinked copyrights here - yours and the the
owner of the results of the collation.


No. They were not involved beyond collating the original data. I
supplied a copy for what was intended to be a joint application.

You'd really do best posting in one of the legal groups, though by all
accounts advice quality is variable there. However SFAIUI the
copyright holder with money to pay lawyers is in quite a powerful
position. Even a simple reference or quotation can be banned by
injunction. Robert Maxwell got away with £££££m using these laws.

It's possible there's other rights such as design copyright and
contract infringment which a smart lawyer might pick up on for you, but
you need the finance to pursue your case. Might be better to see if
you can make an alternative proposal which puts more money in the
builder's pocket whilst at the same time lining yours. Could you
suggest a way of fitting in an extra house using your land?

This is my plan. I'm trying to get ammunition to force them to
re-consider.

Bear in mind that your loss for legal compensation purposes is likely
to be just the cost of your survey & associated work: loss of your hope
for £££ gain won't come into it (unless that is there is/was an
underlying formal agreement - which doesn't have to be in writing, but
its existence must be provable - between you to undertake the
development).

I understand you cannot claim for something you never had; hope value.

Ta. Re-posted to uk.legal now.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

This is not a suggestion...

Keith

wrote in message
ps.com...
Keith (Dorset) wrote:

So, if someone has substantially copied the document in which the data
you
commisioned has been presented, without permission, you may be able to
take
legal action against the infringer.

To get a tenner in recompense? I'd be surprised if one copy were worth
suing over.


NT

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Tim Lamb
writes
I know this has been done to death but Googling failed to identify
comment on my particular circumstances.

So that's where it went! Sorry aimed at uk.legal:-)

If you're still here - you've got me wondering whether your problem is,
as an "amateur" ie someone not in the business so to speak, that you
lack 'bargaining muscle'.

That's where a solicitor might help - insistent letters etc to the
errant builder could possibly bring him back to the negotiating table.

Alternatively you could possibly look out for someone in the property
development business (estate agent, surveyor, architect, planning
specialist etc) to advise you & perhaps deal with the other party.

It is quite possible you are being seen as the weak party who can be
ridden over roughshod, and the consequent risk that you will cause
expensive trouble is deemed low..

Good luck.

In message . com, jim
writes

If you're still here - you've got me wondering whether your problem is,
as an "amateur" ie someone not in the business so to speak, that you
lack 'bargaining muscle'.

Still here.

That's where a solicitor might help - insistent letters etc to the
errant builder could possibly bring him back to the negotiating table.

Umm.. This site has rumbled on for several years and I used a Solicitor
specialised in planning law for advice from the outset. What has changed
is the local policy on *backland* development and dwelling density such
that a scheme put forward 10 years ago and refused has now been accepted
on a much smaller site.

Professional advice, apart from muttering about ethics, has been to drop
it:-(

Alternatively you could possibly look out for someone in the property
development business (estate agent, surveyor, architect, planning
specialist etc) to advise you & perhaps deal with the other party.

It is quite possible you are being seen as the weak party who can be
ridden over roughshod, and the consequent risk that you will cause
expensive trouble is deemed low..

Yes. I am going to, very humbly, suggest how much better the site could
be with some more land.

regards

--
Tim Lamb