It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will never
turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually. Also,
if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for
installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior insulation takes
much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be warmer in
winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing, not saving money -
if saving money is your ultimate goal you are wasting your time bothering
because you won't save anything.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for
installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior insulation takes
much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be warmer in
winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing, not saving money -
if saving money is your ultimate goal you are wasting your time bothering
because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost
for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep the words
short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he will have
broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will cost
him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with me so far? -
this means it will take him at least 58 years just to break even.

...sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an explanation
he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional

Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost
for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep the words
short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he will have
broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will cost
him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with me so far? -
this means it will take him at least 58 years just to break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an explanation
he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional

none of that makes your figures accurate.


NT

wrote:
Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it
will never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has
cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long
as the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself
eventually. Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time
reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep
the words short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an
explanation he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional

none of that makes your figures accurate.


NT

Obviously the 20 years should have read as 10 years, 500 divided by 60 is
easy enough to work out.

Phil L wrote:

wrote:
Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it
will never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has
cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long
as the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself
eventually. Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time
reduce?


snip


If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.


snip


Obviously the 20 years should have read as 10 years, 500 divided by 60 is
easy enough to work out.

You've forgotten depreciation, return-on-investment, opportunity costs,
cost of capital, and all the other things accountants like to bamboozle
us lesser mortals with.

Think of it this way. Assume, for the sake of argument, you can get 5%
interest on money.

Invest 500 pounds. After 1 year, you have 525 pounds (25 pounds more).
After 10 years you'd have about 814 pounds (314 pounds more), after 15
years about 1039 pounds (539 pounds more), and after 20 years you'd
have about 1,326 pounds (826 pounds more).

Spend 500 pounds on insulation. After 1 year, you save 60 pounds,
meaning you are only 440 pounds in the red. After 10 years you have
saved 600 pounds, putting you 100 pounds in the black but you still
have 214 pounds less than if you had invested the money instead. After
15 years you have saved 900 pounds, putting you 400 pounds in the
black, but still 139 pounds less than if you had invested the money,
and after 20 years, you have saved 1200 pounds, putting you 700 pounds
in the black, but STILL less than if you had invested the money.

Now you can argue over 5% is reasonable, and whether your cost savings
would improve as the price of fuel increases, and maybe you have had
the benefit of a warmer house - (all things that accountants have fun
with), but payback is not simple.

Cheers,

Sid

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:00:53 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost
for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep the words
short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he will have
broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will cost
him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with me so far? -
this means it will take him at least 58 years just to break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an explanation
he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional


Cavity Wall Insulation reduces heat loss by upto 1/3
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/domesticll.php?CLASSIFICATION=59&PARENT=54
or prove otherwise!

So more like savings of £250 / year for a house that costs £500 to
insulate. Even ignoring the grants and rapid increases in fuel costs
it pays for itself in just over 2 years.

25mm Celotex has thermal resistance of 1.05 m2k/w compared to 4 1/2
inch brick thickness of 0.132. So an inch of celotex has same theremal
resistance as a yard thickness of bricks. Far from "useless".

Sorry about my abusive tone earlier, I have a hard life

marvelus wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:00:53 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it
will never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has
cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long
as the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself
eventually. Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time
reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep
the words short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an
explanation he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional


Cavity Wall Insulation reduces heat loss by upto 1/3
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/domesticll.php?CLASSIFICATION=59&PARENT=54
or prove otherwise!


I don't neeed to prove otherwise, I've installed CWI (both fibreglass and
rockwool) in over 5,000 houses including my own (obviously!) and the savings
are nothing like those claimed.

So more like savings of £250 / year for a house that costs £500 to
insulate. Even ignoring the grants and rapid increases in fuel costs
it pays for itself in just over 2 years.


I'm afraid people are forgetting that moey used to be worth a lot more than
it is now, IE if someone paid £200 for CWI 15 years ago, that £200 is like a
grand today, so regardless of fuel prices, interest rates and everything
else, that person is still in the red.

25mm Celotex has thermal resistance of 1.05 m2k/w compared to 4 1/2
inch brick thickness of 0.132. So an inch of celotex has same theremal
resistance as a yard thickness of bricks. Far from "useless".


Solid insulation is not CWI, celotex can't be inserted into an existing
cavity as the OP mentioned, nor can kingspan, polystyrene or anything else
in rigid or semi rigid form, his only option (apart from exterior
insulation) is to have it blown, and blown insulation is useless at less
than 50mm thick.

Sorry about my abusive tone earlier, I have a hard life

on the blob?

Solid insulation is not CWI, celotex can't be inserted into an existing
cavity as the OP mentioned, nor can kingspan, polystyrene or anything else
in rigid or semi rigid form, his only option (apart from exterior
insulation) is to have it blown, and blown insulation is useless at less
than 50mm thick.

Are you saying solid insulation can't be inserted into an existing
cavaity because of access? I do have access at the moment as I have
removed the chimney breast. I am about to brick it in. The wall is
quite small so only about 2 feet of the interior wall remains - I could
slide something into the remaining cavity. Also, now that I have
removed most of the chimney breast I have better access and can see
that the cavity is between 40 and 50mm.

Which would be the best option, rebuild the internal wall and then have
it blown, or fit some insulation before building the wall. If the
latter, can I just buy panels of insulation for that purpose? What are
they called?

thanks
Thomas