Hi

We currently have gravity fed HW and a pumped 'power' shower, the pump being
rated at 1.4 bar. I'm about to change our plumbing to a system boiler with
mains pressure stored hot water, but before I commit I want to make sure
what affect this will have on the shower. ie Is mains pressure likely to be
as good/worse or better than the pumped system

Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Thanks

Jim

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:27:59 GMT someone who may be "Jim"
wrote this:-

We currently have gravity fed HW and a pumped 'power' shower, the pump being
rated at 1.4 bar.

So far so good.

I'm about to change our plumbing to a system boiler with
mains pressure stored hot water,

What advantages do you think this will bring, compared to your
current type of system, or a thermal store?

Mains pressure "instant" hot water systems have their advantages in
some situations, but that is a different discussion.

I want to make sure
what affect this will have on the shower. ie Is mains pressure likely to be
as good/worse or better than the pumped system

As you can't tell us the mains pressure, anyone who provides firms
answers is a fool or a liar. What criteria are you interested in?

What do you want out of the system? How many outlets? What sort of
outlets? What is the likely demand pattern? How quick a recovery do
you want? Have you considered a venturi shower?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...

As you can't tell us the mains pressure, anyone who provides firms
answers is a fool or a liar. What criteria are you interested in?

I totally agree.

Thanks for the input so far, got a bit more info....


Flow rate - would appear to be 20l/min

Pressure - using the garden tap (which has a short length of hose on it) I
can't stop the flow by using my thumb over the end. ie the water forces it's
way out

Reasons for system -

Need to replace and relocate the current 30 year old boiler up to the loft
The HW tank has packed up so also has to be replaced
Have 1 bath, 1 pumped shower and 1 sink upstairs, 1 shower, 2 sinks
downstairs
There's 2 1/2 of us in the house and can forsee both showers being used at
once in near future
Ideally would love a shower that flays you alive - this is nowhere near what
we've got at present but as long the replacement isn't anything less I'll be
happy
Hopefully should get HW at the taps quicker than the 30secs + we have to
wait now
By not having a cold water and F&E tank we would free up a lot of loft space
we cannot currently get access to

Basically we've gone for the system as suggested by our plumber. It was the
most expensive quote we got from 3 different plumbers (all suggested a
different system) but think it will suit us best

Thanks for any further input you can give

Jim

"Jim" wrote in message
.. .
Thanks for the input so far, got a bit more info....


Flow rate - would appear to be 20l/min

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp;jsessionid=SJQFOE0DSZU22CSTHZPCFFQ?id=8241 2&ts=71266

Buy this for £12. It connects to the washing machine or garden tap
connection.

Reasons for system -

Need to replace and relocate the current 30 year old boiler up to the loft
The HW tank has packed up so also has to be replaced Have 1 bath, 1 pumped
shower and 1 sink upstairs, 1 shower, 2 sinks downstairs There's 2 1/2 of
us in the house and can forsee both showers being used at once in near
future Ideally would love a shower that flays you alive - this is nowhere
near what we've got at present but as long the replacement isn't anything
less I'll be happy

Depending on the mains pressure the shower could smack you against the wall.
20 litres/min on two showers will give unacceptable shower on each but a
mega on both.

You can improve the cold water flowrate by installing a an accumulator.
This gives pressure to what the static pressure is at the mains, but way
more than 20 litres/min.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Few mains pipes will not improve on that 1.4 bar. Go mains pressure and
the problems of a pump disappears.

Or it might just be worse. The statutory minimum is 1 bar and plenty round
London are close to that.

But presumably your high rise council flat has its own header tank?

--
*When blondes have more fun, do they know it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Few mains pipes will not improve on that 1.4 bar. Go mains pressure and
the problems of a pump disappears.

Or it might just be worse. The statutory minimum is 1 bar and plenty round
London are close to that.

But presumably your high rise council flat has its own header tank?

Is that how they do it on your sink estate?

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But presumably your high rise council flat has its own header tank?

Is that how they do it on your sink estate?

No sink estates round here. We sent all of you to MK years ago.

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Jim wrote:
Hi

We currently have gravity fed HW and a pumped 'power' shower, the pump being
rated at 1.4 bar. I'm about to change our plumbing to a system boiler with
mains pressure stored hot water, but before I commit I want to make sure
what affect this will have on the shower. ie Is mains pressure likely to be
as good/worse or better than the pumped system

Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Thanks

Jim

And remember that a pumped system wont scald you and then go freezing
cold every time someone flushes the toilet, runs the kitchen tap or
puts the washing machine on.

dg

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But presumably your high rise council flat has its own header tank?

Is that how they do it on your sink estate?

No sink estates round here.

No ****!

"dg" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim wrote:
Hi

We currently have gravity fed HW and a pumped 'power' shower, the pump
being
rated at 1.4 bar. I'm about to change our plumbing to a system boiler
with
mains pressure stored hot water, but before I commit I want to make sure
what affect this will have on the shower. ie Is mains pressure likely to
be
as good/worse or better than the pumped system

Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Thanks

Jim

And remember that a pumped system wont scald you and then go freezing
cold every time someone flushes the toilet, runs the kitchen tap or
puts the washing machine on.

What do you refer to?

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But presumably your high rise council flat has its own header tank?

Is that how they do it on your sink estate?

No sink estates round here.

No ****!

Exactly. As I said we exported it to MK.

--
*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Jim wrote:
There's 2 1/2 of us in the house and can forsee both showers being used at
once in near future

So the alarm bells should be ringing for any combi system.

MBQ

dg wrote:
Jim wrote:
Hi

We currently have gravity fed HW and a pumped 'power' shower, the pump being
rated at 1.4 bar. I'm about to change our plumbing to a system boiler with
mains pressure stored hot water, but before I commit I want to make sure
what affect this will have on the shower. ie Is mains pressure likely to be
as good/worse or better than the pumped system

Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Thanks

Jim

And remember that a pumped system wont scald you and then go freezing
cold every time someone flushes the toilet, runs the kitchen tap or
puts the washing machine on.

dg

He said system boiler and mains pressure HW tank, not a COMBI.

To OP. Do it. Its infinitely better than a pump.

I never want to go back..from mains pressure plumbing and a huge
pressurised tank.

wrote:
Jim wrote:
There's 2 1/2 of us in the house and can forsee both showers being used at
once in near future

So the alarm bells should be ringing for any combi system.


He isn't using a combi.

MBQ

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But presumably your high rise council flat has its own header tank?

Is that how they do it on your sink estate?

No sink estates round here.

No ****!

Exactly. As I said we exported it to MK.

The van lost its way as they put them all back in Sarf Lhandan. Appalling
place,

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
dg wrote:
Jim wrote:
Hi

We currently have gravity fed HW and a pumped 'power' shower, the pump
being
rated at 1.4 bar. I'm about to change our plumbing to a system boiler
with
mains pressure stored hot water, but before I commit I want to make sure
what affect this will have on the shower. ie Is mains pressure likely to
be
as good/worse or better than the pumped system

Unfortunately I've no idea what bar mains pressure is in our area
(Chessington in Surrey, Thames Water supply)

Thanks

Jim

And remember that a pumped system wont scald you and then go freezing
cold every time someone flushes the toilet, runs the kitchen tap or
puts the washing machine on.

dg

He said system boiler and mains pressure HW tank, not a COMBI.

I would go for a heat bank and abandon the unvnetd cypdiner. They have an
annual service for the cylinder of £60-£100. and can do this:
http://www.waterheaterblast.com

To OP. Do it. Its infinitely better than a pump.

Do it with a mains pressure heat bank. If your plumber doesn't understand
these get back to me.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Sarf Lhandan.
An example of dribble doing a bit of spell checking for once.

--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Sarf Lhandan.

An example

Oh I forgot you say it, auch de noo.

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:41:47 GMT someone who may be "Jim"
wrote this:-

Need to replace and relocate the current 30 year old boiler up to the loft
The HW tank has packed up so also has to be replaced

That doesn't mean an unvented (mains pressure) hot water cylinder is
necessary. A conventional vented cylinder could still be used.
Alternatively a thermal store could be used, which would provide
mains pressure hot water without the need for regular inspections.
The cost of these inspections is considerable over several decades
and is likely to go up. A thermal store has a high initial cost, but
then just sits there.

A thermal store could also accept heat input from other sources;
solar panels, heat pumps and wood burning stoves being some examples
of such sources. Sole reliance on gas is looking fairly dodgy,
despite the new import facilities that will be ready in a year or
so.

Have 1 bath, 1 pumped shower and 1 sink upstairs, 1 shower, 2 sinks
downstairs

Are they grouped together vertically and horizontally, to minimise
dead legs? If so then, if there is one source of hot water, it is
best located near the tap most in use (usually that in the kitchen).
This can run into difficulties with the Domestic Authorities though.
Unless the house is large hot water storage in, near, or above the
bathroom is not too bad compared with the ideal. As the house gets
larger storage at the centre of groups of outlets becomes sensible.

Remote sinks, for example in a downstairs toilet, are often best
served by an electric under-sink heater.

There's 2 1/2 of us in the house and can forsee both showers being used at
once in near future

Certainly a good reason for storing hot water, as in a cylinder, or
storing primary water to make lots of hot water rapidly, as in a
thermal store.

Ideally would love a shower that flays you alive - this is nowhere near what
we've got at present

Have you tried various shower heads?

Hopefully should get HW at the taps quicker than the 30secs + we have to
wait now

More quickly, though the amount of water wasted will be the same.
Are the hot water pipes lagged?

By not having a cold water and F&E tank we would free up a lot of loft space
we cannot currently get access to

The space they take is generally little, a few cases. If they are
blocking access to other parts of the loft could they be moved?



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:41:47 GMT someone who may be "Jim"
wrote this:-

Need to replace and relocate the current 30 year old boiler up to the loft
The HW tank has packed up so also has to be replaced

That doesn't mean an unvented (mains pressure) hot water cylinder is
necessary. A conventional vented cylinder could still be used.
Alternatively a thermal store could be used, which would provide
mains pressure hot water without the need for regular inspections.
The cost of these inspections is considerable over several decades
and is likely to go up. A thermal store has a high initial cost, but
then just sits there.

Thermal stores are about the same price as an unvented cylinder. It also
provides for free CH and boiler buffering for free.

A thermal store could also accept heat input from other sources;
solar panels, heat pumps and wood burning stoves being some examples
of such sources. Sole reliance on gas is looking fairly dodgy,
despite the new import facilities that will be ready in a year or
so.

Have 1 bath, 1 pumped shower and 1 sink upstairs, 1 shower, 2 sinks
downstairs

Are they grouped together vertically and horizontally, to minimise
dead legs? If so then, if there is one source of hot water, it is
best located near the tap most in use (usually that in the kitchen).
This can run into difficulties with the Domestic Authorities though.
Unless the house is large hot water storage in, near, or above the
bathroom is not too bad compared with the ideal. As the house gets
larger storage at the centre of groups of outlets becomes sensible.

Remote sinks, for example in a downstairs toilet, are often best
served by an electric under-sink heater.

There's 2 1/2 of us in the house and can forsee both showers being used
at
once in near future

Certainly a good reason for storing hot water, as in a cylinder, or
storing primary water to make lots of hot water rapidly, as in a
thermal store.

Ideally would love a shower that flays you alive - this is nowhere near
what
we've got at present

Have you tried various shower heads?

Hopefully should get HW at the taps quicker than the 30secs + we have to
wait now

More quickly, though the amount of water wasted will be the same.
Are the hot water pipes lagged?

By not having a cold water and F&E tank we would free up a lot of loft
space
we cannot currently get access to

The space they take is generally little, a few cases. If they are
blocking access to other parts of the loft could they be moved?



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54