I'm at the detailed planning stage for my cloakroom remodeling project.

The bog will be a wall mounted pan on a Grohe frame panelled in front and I
am thinking about the panelling, mounting and tiling arrangements.

Considering loading issues, I want to consider materials and techniques
carefully.


If this were a floor mount, I would be tiling underneath and fitting the pan
on top - simple enough.

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or plasterboard
(ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing) and again whether to
tile behind or up to the pan. For neatness, I am thinking about behind the
pan, but again wonder about crushing. I suppose that there is not a lot
of difference conceptually to placing a floor standing pan on tiles.. Or is
there?

I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

http://www.hansgrohe.com/com/en/prod...om.mixer/washb
asin.html

http://tinyurl.com/q86mn

This does not have the plate escutcheon and so I will need to cut tiles
carefully to fit.

I have an electric disk type tile saw for cutting straight pieces.

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

I want to try to avoid cutting in little bits of tile and spoiling the
natural continuity. Depending on the tiles selected, this may mean
drilling large holes (about 50-55mm) or arranging the tiling to have a join
along the centre line of the tap and cutting in from the edge.

Is there a suitable drilling method to achieve this?

Is there a suitable edge/corner cutting method - e.g. something like a scroll
saw that will cut tiles?

Andy Hall wrote:

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or plasterboard
(ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing) and again whether to
tile behind or up to the pan. For neatness, I am thinking about behind the
pan, but again wonder about crushing. I suppose that there is not a lot
of difference conceptually to placing a floor standing pan on tiles.. Or is
there?

Mine was done with ply, then tiled behind the pan. Assuming the tiles
are fixed solid bed and the bolts on the pan tightened properly there
should be an even load on the wall/pan area. I think I have seen in the
Grohe/Gerberit catalogue something that looked like a interface
pad/gasket that would go between pan and tile, but mine seems to be ok
without.

I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

I want to try to avoid cutting in little bits of tile and spoiling the
natural continuity. Depending on the tiles selected, this may mean
drilling large holes (about 50-55mm) or arranging the tiling to have a join
along the centre line of the tap and cutting in from the edge.

Is there a suitable drilling method to achieve this?

Is there a suitable edge/corner cutting method - e.g. something like a scroll
saw that will cut tiles?

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=040213374&r=2148&g=119

drill hole in tile, put blade through hole...


--
David Clark
http://www.publishing.ucl.ac.uk
$replyto = 'an.rnser.is.reqird'

Andy Hall wrote:
For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or plasterboard
(ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing) and again whether to
tile behind or up to the pan.

Ply and tile behind the pan. As another poster mentioned, most wall
mount bogs have an optional pad to eliminate squeaks.

I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

http://www.hansgrohe.com/com/en/prod...om.mixer/washb
asin.html

http://tinyurl.com/q86mn

I bought some Axor stuff for our shower room - by far the best prices I
found were at http://www.megabad.com/ - fine site, not much English
communications were a bit cranky but they came through fine with
stereotypical efficiency, excellent packaging etc. The wall-mounted V&B
loo alone was about half the cost in the UK, including the shipping.

This does not have the plate escutcheon and so I will need to cut tiles
carefully to fit.

I have an electric disk type tile saw for cutting straight pieces.

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

Hole saw - presuming you are using porcelain you need a diamond one.
The Armeg screwfix ones work fine, or there are cheaper chinese
non-guided versions around.

Or align the holes along tile joints and nibble away with a wetsaw.
Looks less neat though, and forces the rest of your tiling to comply
with those spacings.

On 2006-07-23 00:24:40 +0100, DJC said:

Andy Hall wrote:

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or
plasterboard (ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing)
and again whether to tile behind or up to the pan. For neatness, I am
thinking about behind the pan, but again wonder about crushing. I
suppose that there is not a lot of difference conceptually to placing a
floor standing pan on tiles.. Or is there?

Mine was done with ply, then tiled behind the pan. Assuming the tiles
are fixed solid bed and the bolts on the pan tightened properly there
should be an even load on the wall/pan area. I think I have seen in the
Grohe/Gerberit catalogue something that looked like a interface
pad/gasket that would go between pan and tile, but mine seems to be ok
without.

OK. Will check into that




I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

I want to try to avoid cutting in little bits of tile and spoiling the
natural continuity. Depending on the tiles selected, this may mean
drilling large holes (about 50-55mm) or arranging the tiling to have a
join along the centre line of the tap and cutting in from the edge.

Is there a suitable drilling method to achieve this?

Is there a suitable edge/corner cutting method - e.g. something like a
scroll saw that will cut tiles?

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=040213374&r=2148&g=119

drill hole in tile, put blade through hole...

Yes, that would do it. Thanks for these two suggestions.

On 2006-07-23 00:47:54 +0100, Bolted said:

Andy Hall wrote:
For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or
plasterboard (ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing)
and again whether to tile behind or up to the pan.

Ply and tile behind the pan. As another poster mentioned, most wall
mount bogs have an optional pad to eliminate squeaks.

OK. Thanks for the confirmation.




I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

http://www.hansgrohe.com/com/en/prod...om.mixer/washb
asin.html

http://tinyurl.com/q86mn

I bought some Axor stuff for our shower room - by far the best prices I
found were at http://www.megabad.com/ - fine site, not much English
communications were a bit cranky but they came through fine with
stereotypical efficiency, excellent packaging etc. The wall-mounted
V&B loo alone was about half the cost in the UK, including the shipping.

This was one of the suppliers I found. It seems that their Axor
prices are 1:2 compared with UK as well. As you say, an easy to
use site, and I don't have a particular problem in reading German.

I looked at V&B and their stuff is certainly good. Unfortunately I
couldn't find the kind of design I wanted.



This does not have the plate escutcheon and so I will need to cut tiles
carefully to fit.

I have an electric disk type tile saw for cutting straight pieces.

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

Hole saw - presuming you are using porcelain you need a diamond one.
The Armeg screwfix ones work fine, or there are cheaper chinese
non-guided versions around.

I guess you mean the diamond core drills?


Or align the holes along tile joints and nibble away with a wetsaw.
Looks less neat though, and forces the rest of your tiling to comply
with those spacings.

Yes, that was what I was trying to avoid if I could.

Andy Hall wrote:
Hole saw - presuming you are using porcelain you need a diamond one.
The Armeg screwfix ones work fine, or there are cheaper chinese
non-guided versions around.


I guess you mean the diamond core drills?

If you prefer to call it that. A carbide holesaw will do ordinary
ceramic and is much cheaper
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...50272&id=10322.

For porcelain or stone you'll need diamond, like these

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...01250&ts=50362

Pricey for a one-off job, though, and I couldn't find anywhere that
rents them. If you are in London-ish I could do them for you if you
bring the tiles round.

These are much much cheaper:

http://www.richontools.com/catalog/c36_p2.html

But they don't have a guide, so you need to improvise something like a
piece of mdf with a hole the size of the outer diameter of the bit to
keep it on track at the start of the cut. For a one-off job, that's
probably the way to go.

You need to keep all of these diamond thingys wet and cool. I did them
in a water bath under my pillar drill, which worked fantastically well
and got loads of wear of the bits (wore one bit out, but it must have
done 50 or so holes in some bloody tough porcelain). If you do it after
tiling rather than before you have to keep spraying the wall/floor
around the cut and it is difficult by doing that to keep the temp down
below the level at which the diamond substrate melts and the drill stops
working for good.

On 2006-07-23 11:37:19 +0100, Bolted said:

Andy Hall wrote:
Hole saw - presuming you are using porcelain you need a diamond one.
The Armeg screwfix ones work fine, or there are cheaper chinese
non-guided versions around.


I guess you mean the diamond core drills?

If you prefer to call it that. A carbide holesaw will do ordinary
ceramic and is much cheaper
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...50272&id=10322.

For

porcelain or stone you'll need diamond, like these

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...01250&ts=50362

This gives the range. I guess you mean their stock code 97416 as an example?




Pricey for a one-off job, though, and I couldn't find anywhere that
rents them. If you are in London-ish I could do them for you if you
bring the tiles round.

Thanks very much for the offer, unfortunately I'm not though.

I am going to be doing two additional bathroom jobs over the next
couple of years, so amortising the cost and it's not that bad.


These are much much cheaper:

http://www.richontools.com/catalog/c36_p2.html

But they don't have a guide, so you need to improvise something like a
piece of mdf with a hole the size of the outer diameter of the bit to
keep it on track at the start of the cut. For a one-off job, that's
probably the way to go.

You need to keep all of these diamond thingys wet and cool. I did them
in a water bath under my pillar drill, which worked fantastically well
and got loads of wear of the bits (wore one bit out, but it must have
done 50 or so holes in some bloody tough porcelain). If you do it
after tiling rather than before you have to keep spraying the
wall/floor around the cut and it is difficult by doing that to keep the
temp down below the level at which the diamond substrate melts and the
drill stops working for good.

I have a drill press, so was thinking that a water bath would be a way
to do the job. Certainly this seems a better approach than
attempting the job in situ.

Thanks for all your thoughts

Andy Hall wrote:

This gives the range. I guess you mean their stock code 97416 as an
example?

That's one of them, but you need also need the arbour and one of the
pointy diamond bits to make the hole for the arbour's guide (8mm, I
think, but check on the armeg website). So it adds up....

I think the one you were pointing at is going to be too big, though -
I'd imagine that you will want a hole that is about 25mm, or just a
little bit bigger than the wall-plate elbow (or whatever)'s female bit.
Then the little round escutcheons that you do have with those taps go
over the tile and hide the hole.


I have a drill press, so was thinking that a water bath would be a way
to do the job. Certainly this seems a better approach than attempting
the job in situ.

I got an under-the-bed plastic storage thing from a pound shop, and used
a bit of ply on the bottom of it to stop punctures and to support the
tile well - if you don't have even support underneath porcelain will
sometimes crack with the pressure.

Quite a satisfying job, ten seconds of so of hissing, and such a perfect
neat hole.

Andy Hall wrote:

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or plasterboard
(ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing) and again whether to
tile behind or up to the pan. For neatness, I am thinking about behind the
pan, but again wonder about crushing. I suppose that there is not a lot
of difference conceptually to placing a floor standing pan on tiles.. Or is
there?

You may get a slightly higher point load at the base of the pan due to
its leverage effect, but I can't see it being much of an issue as long
as the substrate is absolutely rigid and the tiles are fully bedded on.

I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

This does not have the plate escutcheon and so I will need to cut tiles
carefully to fit.

I have an electric disk type tile saw for cutting straight pieces.

You can cut some curves with these - semi circles etc. Mark the required
line on the face of the tile, and then cut perpendicular towards it
stopping on the line. Move the tile a little to the side and repeat.
Eventually the waste piece of tile should have been reduced to a comb
like arrangement of "fingers" of tile all stopping on the line. These
can now be knocked out and a gentle lateral pass made with the edge of
the cutting disc to clean up the curve.

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

I want to try to avoid cutting in little bits of tile and spoiling the
natural continuity. Depending on the tiles selected, this may mean
drilling large holes (about 50-55mm) or arranging the tiling to have a join
along the centre line of the tap and cutting in from the edge.

Grit edged tile/hole saws will do it. Much depends on the hardness of
the tiles as to how difficult it is. For normal pottery ones the coping
saw style tile saws, or grit edged blades for a jigsaw work fine. The
corner of a diamond segment blade in a multimaster can also be used to
take out a "curve" in a series of short straight cuts.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2006-07-30 16:06:47 +0100, John Rumm said:

Andy Hall wrote:

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or
plasterboard (ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing)
and again whether to tile behind or up to the pan. For neatness, I am
thinking about behind the pan, but again wonder about crushing. I
suppose that there is not a lot of difference conceptually to placing a
floor standing pan on tiles.. Or is there?

You may get a slightly higher point load at the base of the pan due to
its leverage effect, but I can't see it being much of an issue as long
as the substrate is absolutely rigid and the tiles are fully bedded on.

I was thinking of 18mm ply, but perhaps something thicker should be used?



I am going for a wall mounted tap for the basin

This does not have the plate escutcheon and so I will need to cut tiles
carefully to fit.

I have an electric disk type tile saw for cutting straight pieces.

You can cut some curves with these - semi circles etc. Mark the
required line on the face of the tile, and then cut perpendicular
towards it stopping on the line. Move the tile a little to the side and
repeat. Eventually the waste piece of tile should have been reduced to
a comb like arrangement of "fingers" of tile all stopping on the line.
These can now be knocked out and a gentle lateral pass made with the
edge of the cutting disc to clean up the curve.

The question is how to cut the curved shapes or drilled holes for the tap.

I want to try to avoid cutting in little bits of tile and spoiling the
natural continuity. Depending on the tiles selected, this may mean
drilling large holes (about 50-55mm) or arranging the tiling to have a
join along the centre line of the tap and cutting in from the edge.

Grit edged tile/hole saws will do it. Much depends on the hardness of
the tiles as to how difficult it is. For normal pottery ones the coping
saw style tile saws, or grit edged blades for a jigsaw work fine. The
corner of a diamond segment blade in a multimaster can also be used to
take out a "curve" in a series of short straight cuts.

These are all good ideas, John, thanks. There is a little leeway with
the holes. They need to be about 52mm for the mechanical parts of the
tap to clear, but the escutcheons for the spout and tap lever are 68mm.

I hadn't thought of the Multimaster, but I know the blade you mean.

I didn't know about grit edged jigsaw blades.

I suspect that a lot will depend on the tiles chosen by SWMBO

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-07-30 16:06:47 +0100, John Rumm
said:

Andy Hall wrote:

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or
plasterboard (ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing)

You may get a slightly higher point load at the base of the pan due to
its leverage effect, but I can't see it being much of an issue as long
as the substrate is absolutely rigid and the tiles are fully bedded on.

I was thinking of 18mm ply, but perhaps something thicker should be used?

Were you not intending to use a Grohe frame? If so the load should be
taken by the frame, in which case 18mm ply would surely be sufficient to
ensure the layer of tiles remain flat and rigid.


--
David Clark
http://www.publishing.ucl.ac.uk
$replyto = 'an.rnser.is.reqird'

Andy Hall wrote:

These are all good ideas, John, thanks. There is a little leeway with
the holes. They need to be about 52mm for the mechanical parts of the
tap to clear, but the escutcheons for the spout and tap lever are 68mm.

With that amount, you may be able to simply chain drill round the
periphery of the hole and tidy up with a file. I did this for the
pipework entrance to the back of my shower mixer and it worked quite well.

I suspect that a lot will depend on the tiles chosen by SWMBO

Indeed!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2006-07-30 22:03:51 +0100, DJC said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-07-30 16:06:47 +0100, John Rumm said:

Andy Hall wrote:

For a wall mount pan, I am wondering whether to go for ply or
plasterboard (ply seems to make more sense as less risk of crushing)

You may get a slightly higher point load at the base of the pan due to
its leverage effect, but I can't see it being much of an issue as long
as the substrate is absolutely rigid and the tiles are fully bedded on.

I was thinking of 18mm ply, but perhaps something thicker should be used?

Were you not intending to use a Grohe frame? If so the load should be
taken by the frame, in which case 18mm ply would surely be sufficient
to ensure the layer of tiles remain flat and rigid.

Yes I am going to use a Grohe frame. My natural thought was that
18mm ply ought to be fine - I was just floating this one in case
somebody suggested that something more substantial would be needed and
had a reason for it.