Hi,

In few months we move into a house build in about 1750.

As such it has no cavity or any insulation to speak of!

We're planning to dryline the walls and add some insulation - cellotex
or kingspan etc.

Does anyone have any information - or weblinks - on the following....

1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.

2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so I
have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern house we
are in now?

We need about 80 8ft by 4ft sheets of whatever I select!

The problem I have is that due to the room design, on some walls I can
only put a thin insulating layer (plus plasterboard etc.) without
having to move doorframes! Hence finding the best for the job?

Do any of these insulating systems allow for easier affixing of the
plasterboard panels? Can you dab and dot onto them direct? Are some
easier to install than others?

I need as much reduction in heat loss as possible, so I can get the
boiler sizing right. Seen a lot of mention of the myson boiler sizer,
but can't find it on their site? Any ideas?

Any help and advice greatly appreciated!

Many thanks


Matthew

Matthew wrote:
Hi,

In few months we move into a house build in about 1750.

As such it has no cavity or any insulation to speak of!

We're planning to dryline the walls and add some insulation - cellotex
or kingspan etc.

Does anyone have any information - or weblinks - on the following....

1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.

2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so
I have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern
house we are in now?

We need about 80 8ft by 4ft sheets of whatever I select!

The problem I have is that due to the room design, on some walls I can
only put a thin insulating layer (plus plasterboard etc.) without
having to move doorframes! Hence finding the best for the job?

Do any of these insulating systems allow for easier affixing of the
plasterboard panels? Can you dab and dot onto them direct? Are some
easier to install than others?

I need as much reduction in heat loss as possible, so I can get the
boiler sizing right. Seen a lot of mention of the myson boiler sizer,
but can't find it on their site? Any ideas?

Any help and advice greatly appreciated!

Is the house bare brick or is it rendered / textured outside?

If not, how would you feel about having it rendered / textured outside?

Insulation doesn't have to go inside, it can be affixed to the exterior
walls, then a 'mesh' goes over it and finally it's finished with a textured
coating (not render, it's a sort of polymer resin which doesn't crack) in a
choice of finishes....it would also probably be cheaper, easier and quicker
to do it this way rather than upset every room in the house....there's some
good information here at the Energy Saving Trust's website: (acrobat reader
required)
http://www.est.org.uk/uploads/docume...idwallsLA1.pdf

Matthew wrote:
Hi,

Did you post a similar question some time ago? Maybe a year ago?


In few months we move into a house build in about 1750.

As such it has no cavity or any insulation to speak of!

We're planning to dryline the walls and add some insulation - cellotex
or kingspan etc.

This presumably means that you will have to completely gut the
place. Are alterations subject to any restrictions, e.g. is
it listed, in a conservation area, or anything similar?


Does anyone have any information - or weblinks - on the following....

1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.

2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so I
have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern house we
are in now?

Google will find that lot easily.


We need about 80 8ft by 4ft sheets of whatever I select!

The problem I have is that due to the room design, on some walls I can
only put a thin insulating layer (plus plasterboard etc.) without
having to move doorframes!

Can you explain that a bit more?


Hence finding the best for the job?

A question, or a statement?


I need as much reduction in heat loss as possible, so I can get the
boiler sizing right. Seen a lot of mention of the myson boiler sizer,
but can't find it on their site? Any ideas?

What about external insulation? Possible? Do you really have to add
insulation on the walls? It's possible that you may create problems
fiddling about with an old place like this.

'Fraid we can't touch the external render - its Grade II listed and the
listing includes some of the external brickwork detail. If it didn't
I'd go down that route!

Thanks

Matthew

Hi,
Did you post a similar question some time ago? Maybe a year ago?

Wasn't me - we only saw the building for the first time in March this
year.

In few months we move into a house build in about 1750.
As such it has no cavity or any insulation to speak of!
We're planning to dryline the walls and add some insulation - cellotex
or kingspan etc.

This presumably means that you will have to completely gut the
place. Are alterations subject to any restrictions, e.g. is
it listed, in a conservation area, or anything similar?

Grade II listed - so we can't change anything external, but the
Conservation Officer didn't have any objections to adding insulation in
this way... Agreed about the gutting. The house hasn't been touched
for about 60yrs - apart from adding an immersion heater and rewiring.
All the windows and sills need placing, and central heating added - so
its all pretty major stuff any way!

Does anyone have any information - or weblinks - on the following....
1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.
2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so I
have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern house we
are in now?

Google will find that lot easily.

Will try again!

We need about 80 8ft by 4ft sheets of whatever I select!
The problem I have is that due to the room design, on some walls I can
only put a thin insulating layer (plus plasterboard etc.) without
having to move doorframes!

Can you explain that a bit more?

I'll try. The doorways in some of the rooms are right in the corner
of the room so the there is no (or little) gap between the adjoining
wall and the doorframe. In our current house all the doorframes are
inset about 150mm from the corner of the room - in the house we are
moving to there isn't this gap - there maybe 50mm max.

Hence finding the best for the job?

A question, or a statement?

A statement. If I've only got a total gap of 50mm, and I need about 20
of that for plaster and board, I can only have about 25mm of
insulation. So I need the most effective 25mm of insulation I can get!

I need as much reduction in heat loss as possible, so I can get the
boiler sizing right. Seen a lot of mention of the myson boiler sizer,
but can't find it on their site? Any ideas?

What about external insulation? Possible? Do you really have to add
insulation on the walls? It's possible that you may create problems
fiddling about with an old place like this.

I think my only option is internal, as the listing specifies some of
the external brick work detail, which would be lost if it was external
insulated. Using internal means I can also hide some of the hideous
rewiring (well our electrician can) and run pipework runs out of site.
The floors (on all levels) are solid so there is nowhere else to
conceal pipework.

Thanks for taking the time to reply,

Matthew

Matthew wrote:
'Fraid we can't touch the external render - its Grade II listed and the
listing includes some of the external brickwork detail. If it didn't
I'd go down that route!

Doesn't Grade II also include internal "features" too ?


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On 22 May 2006 11:38:34 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named "Matthew"
randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Does anyone have any information - or weblinks - on the following....

1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.

AFAIK the same stuff (if not, then virtually the same). Conductivity
of 0.023W/mK.

2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so I
have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern house we
are in now?

A 9" brick wall with dense plaster internally = 2.0-2.1W/m²K.
The Building Regulations require a U-value of 0.35W/m²K for new walls.
It has been coming down from 0.6W/m²K in 1990.

Any help and advice greatly appreciated!

Why go to the bother of insulating the walls to such a great extent?
There are other ways of reducing the heat losses for much less hassle.
Insulate the loft. If you have timber ground floors, put insulation
between the joists. Even if you can't replace the windows due to it
being listed, you can fit draught seals.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

On 22 May 2006 11:38:34 -0700, Matthew wrote:

1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.

Look at the respective websites. But to be honest both cellotex and
kingspan are the same type of ridged foam so the insulation values are
going to be fairly similar for a given thickness. ISTR that these types
of product give the best insulation per unit thickness of anything.

2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so I
have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern house we
are in now?

Only 9"? Bit of a wimpy 1750's house? Ours are about 18" thick but rubble
stone, not a brick in sight. Compared to a modern wall with CWI solid
walls loose heat like it's going out of fashion but they do store a lot
of heat (or cold). So I'd only insulate the exterior walls and let the
interior ones regulate the house temperature, keep it cool in summer and
warm in winter (just don't switch of the heating or it'll take days to
warm back up, BTDTGTTS).

Do any of these insulating systems allow for easier affixing of the
plasterboard panels?

You can get cellotex/kingspan ready bonded to plaster board. Just fix 1"
thick battens to the wall attach panels to battens. Used some 25mm
insulation + 9mm or so plasterboard on the end exterior wall of a small
bedroom here. Made *very* noticeable difference to the room (just two
sheets).

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost wrote:
snip
Why go to the bother of insulating the walls to such a great extent?
There are other ways of reducing the heat losses for much less hassle.
Insulate the loft. If you have timber ground floors, put insulation
between the joists. Even if you can't replace the windows due to it
being listed, you can fit draught seals.

This improves things a fair bit.
But, the walls on most houses without insulation are a really, really
large source of heat loss.

Matthew wrote:

'Fraid we can't touch the external render - its Grade II listed and the
listing includes some of the external brickwork detail. If it didn't
I'd go down that route!

Doesn't that infringe your human rights of freedom of choice, or does
that only apply to criminals :-(

Dave

in argumentative mode :-)

Matthew wrote:
Hi,

In few months we move into a house build in about 1750.

As such it has no cavity or any insulation to speak of!

We're planning to dryline the walls and add some insulation - cellotex
or kingspan etc.

Does anyone have any information - or weblinks - on the following....

1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.


Practically the same.

2) Comparison of a 9" solid wall v a modern cavity with CWI - just so I
have some idea of what can be achieved, compared to the modern house we
are in now?


Both are infinitely more conductive than whatever you will line them with.



We need about 80 8ft by 4ft sheets of whatever I select!


Ouch. won't be cheap..

The problem I have is that due to the room design, on some walls I can
only put a thin insulating layer (plus plasterboard etc.) without
having to move doorframes! Hence finding the best for the job?

Mm. new doorframes?

Do any of these insulating systems allow for easier affixing of the
plasterboard panels? Can you dab and dot onto them direct? Are some
easier to install than others?

I wouldn't bother. Stud the inside and wedge the panels in and nail the
board on.

Or accept cold spouts where you gouge for cable runs..

I need as much reduction in heat loss as possible, so I can get the
boiler sizing right. Seen a lot of mention of the myson boiler sizer,
but can't find it on their site? Any ideas?


Never mind the boiler sizing, its the overall comfort factor ypou will
notice..

Any help and advice greatly appreciated!

Many thanks


Matthew

Matthew wrote:
'Fraid we can't touch the external render - its Grade II listed and the
listing includes some of the external brickwork detail. If it didn't
I'd go down that route!

Doesn't Grade II also include internal "features" too ?

Certain ones - but the CO said its OK. We'll still need to apply for
LBC though...

Cheers

Matthew

Matthew wrote:

Grade II listed - so we can't change anything external, but the
Conservation Officer didn't have any objections to adding insulation in
this way... Agreed about the gutting. The house hasn't been touched
for about 60yrs - apart from adding an immersion heater and rewiring.
All the windows and sills need placing, and central heating added - so
its all pretty major stuff any way!

Friends of mine did this to a grade II years ago. Essentially built a
new house inside the old one. Out of block. Cavity insulation between.

Lovely deep window sills.


I'll try. The doorways in some of the rooms are right in the corner
of the room so the there is no (or little) gap between the adjoining
wall and the doorframe. In our current house all the doorframes are
inset about 150mm from the corner of the room - in the house we are
moving to there isn't this gap - there maybe 50mm max.

Bite the bullet and make up new frames.


A statement. If I've only got a total gap of 50mm, and I need about 20
of that for plaster and board, I can only have about 25mm of
insulation. So I need the most effective 25mm of insulation I can get!

Try and go deeper. but otherwise celotex/kingspan is as good as it gets
IIRC.

If you use 15mm of board only, thats 35mm of kingspan.

Hugo Nebula wrote:

Why go to the bother of insulating the walls to such a great extent?
There are other ways of reducing the heat losses for much less hassle.
Insulate the loft. If you have timber ground floors, put insulation
between the joists. Even if you can't replace the windows due to it
being listed, you can fit draught seals.

Largest heat loss in total is through roof for sure (after draughty
doors windows and floorboards), but one assumes the OP knows this, has a
plan, and doesn't need to ask.

Second is the walls..by virtue of their area and exposure.

Then the ground floor.

And finally windows..

On Mon, 22 May 2006 22:28:19 +0100, Hugo Nebula wrote:


1) Comparative U values for cellotex v. kingspan etc etc.

Conductivity of 0.023W/mK. missing superscript 2 after the m?

A 9" brick wall with dense plaster internally = 2.0-2.1W/m²K.

Why go to the bother of insulating the walls to such a great extent?

The 100 fold difference in conductivity? Lets be simple, think of a house
as a 10m x 10m x 6m high box. That gives us four walls of 60m^2 each or a
total surface area of 240m^2. 20k temp differece, solid wall = 9600W
loss, insulated wall 96W loss. Very simplistic but illustrative, want to
run a 10kW boiler flat out or just have some ordinary tungsten lights
on?...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Grade II listed - so we can't change anything external, but the
Conservation Officer didn't have any objections to adding insulation
in this way... Agreed about the gutting. The house hasn't been
touched for about 60yrs - apart from adding an immersion heater and
rewiring. All the windows and sills need placing, and central heating
added - so its all pretty major stuff any way!

Listing does not only apply to the exterior. May sure the CO confirms it is
OK in writing to be on the safe side.

Peter Crosland

Sure will! We have a large list of items we need written confirmation
of!

Cheers

Matthew

On Tue, 23 May 2006 12:45:25 +0100, Christian McArdle wrote:

You can get insulation board with plasterboard ready attached.
snip
These boards will be special order only, don't expect to go down a
builder's merchant and drive away with them!

My local one does, at least in 25mm insulation thickness...

Adhesive is probably easier when you have limited space, but allow a
few mm for the adhesive.

I'd be a little cagey about dab and dot onto an ancient solid wall.

Penetrating damp might appear behind the dry lining once you restrict the
ventilation right down and, unless your taking floors out and sealing
round joist ends, condensation from warm moist air leaking from the rooms
to behind the insulation is also distinct possibilty.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail