In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Pneumatic 'conventional' hammer drills *were* once available at a vast
price, but are any now? Can't see the point since SDS works so well.

My real point is that 'SDS' is simply a name, and has no actual
relationship to drill *quality* other than it specifies a certain form
of chuck/drill interface.

It guarantees easy drilling of hard concrete, though, even with the
cheapest drill. The reliability of that cheap drill isn't at issue -
anymore than the reliability of a cheap hammer drill.

--
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

yup, aptly said. should be rotary drill and not sds, te-c te-y etc etc

wrote:

a rotary hammer works differently from a hammer drill. thats why the
chuck is different to necessitate the drilling.

You don't say! ;-)

if you were an expensive sds bit, cut the shank and place the bit into
a hammer drill, its performance would be no where near that of a rotary
hammer using a cheap $2 bit

I think that is what I just said...



--
Cheers,

John.

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Precisely.

Its in the hammer action, not in the fact it says 'SDS' on it.

Hence my question, have you ever seen a drill that has an SDS "chuck",
but an ordinary cam actuated hammer action? I have not personally.

Hence why I was quering the pedantry of highlighting that "SDS" really
only applies to the bit holding design and not the hammer action. You
and I know this, but the vast majority of people associate "a SDS drill"
with the high performance hammer action, based on the fact that the only
SDS drills they ever see have said hammer action. So when someone says
"you need a SDS drill" it is pretty obvious what they mean.


--
Cheers,

John.

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Pneumatic 'conventional' hammer drills *were* once available at a vast
price, but are any now? Can't see the point since SDS works so well.

My mate has a Kango rotary hammer (about the size of todays 6kg SDS
drills) with a pneumatic hammer action. The drill does not have a chuck
at all and instead takes morse taper masonry bits.


--
Cheers,

John.

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wrote:

On 22 May,
John Rumm wrote:

Aright, try part number 88952 (about half way down the above page)



What does it mean by chuck capacity SDS+? Is it an ordinary drill with an SDS
chuck, or a genuine cheapo SDS drill?

Its a cheapo SDS, although I think that one may only be two function and
not three (i.e. no chisel mode).


--
Cheers,

John.

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wrote:
yup, aptly said. should be rotary drill and not sds, te-c te-y etc etc

Bloody Google.

John Rumm wrote:
Hence my question, have you ever seen a drill that has an SDS "chuck",
but an ordinary cam actuated hammer action? I have not personally.

Sorry to rain on your parade - but my SDS drill (a Bosch GBH 2-24 DFR,
1999 vintage) has a purely mechanical hammer action - and it really has
some clout.

(I know this for certain, as after 7 or so years usage the hammer
action switch became faulty and I had to dismantle and fix the thing
last week, see:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....cfbce57 81e1a)

I believe the key difference between the effectiveness of SDS over
non-SDS is that the hammer acts directly on the back of the drill bit
and not via the chuck, eliminating extra mass and the small shock
absorbing action of conventional chuck jaws.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Its in the hammer action, not in the fact it says 'SDS' on it.

However, SDS has become a convenient shorthand for "pneumatic impact"

Has it?

Seems to with most people I know. And, I suspect, most people here, too.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Which is why I am unhappy that everyone says 'get an SDS' rather than
'get a Makita XYZ 5000'

But in the case when I last said it, I actually meant "get an SDS drill"
'cos as far as I'm aware all currently available SDS drills are of the
pneumatic impact sort - which is the feature I was pushing for that
particular problem.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message . com
from " contains these words:

I believe the key difference between the effectiveness of SDS over
non-SDS is that the hammer acts directly on the back of the drill bit
and not via the chuck, eliminating extra mass and the small shock
absorbing action of conventional chuck jaws.

That and you can hit it a hell of a lot harder. I've used many rotary
impact drills over the years and none of them have come close to the
effectiveness of even a lowly SDS (pneumatic for the pedants) drill.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Hence my question, have you ever seen a drill that has an SDS "chuck",
but an ordinary cam actuated hammer action? I have not personally.


Sorry to rain on your parade - but my SDS drill (a Bosch GBH 2-24 DFR,
1999 vintage) has a purely mechanical hammer action - and it really has
some clout.

IIUC the hammer action in the GBH 2-34 is much the same as that in my
Makita HR2450 i.e. it does have an enhanced hammer action... (i.e. the
hammer is not achived by a large washer with a sawtooth profile on it
mounted behind the chuck).

Some SDS drills get their powerful hammer from a small air driven
piston, and some (like ours) use an oscilating weight to thump the end
of the bit.

I believe the key difference between the effectiveness of SDS over
non-SDS is that the hammer acts directly on the back of the drill bit
and not via the chuck, eliminating extra mass and the small shock
absorbing action of conventional chuck jaws.

That does make a big difference certainly, hoewever it is not only that.
The fact that there actually *is* a real hammer action makes most of the
difference. In a standard percussion drill, the hammer action comes from
your own "push" being temporarily interrupted by the interaction of
the teeth on the fixed rotating cam washers stepping over each other.
This why it is difficult to do roto stop on a conventional hammer, since
the hammer requires the rotation of the chuck to work.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Guy King wrote:
The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Which is why I am unhappy that everyone says 'get an SDS' rather than
'get a Makita XYZ 5000'

But in the case when I last said it, I actually meant "get an SDS drill"
'cos as far as I'm aware all currently available SDS drills are of the
pneumatic impact sort - which is the feature I was pushing for that
particular problem.

I have yet to see a DIY drill with any sort of compressed air facility
in it.

What are you actually going on about?

Guy King wrote:
The message . com
from " contains these words:

I believe the key difference between the effectiveness of SDS over
non-SDS is that the hammer acts directly on the back of the drill bit
and not via the chuck, eliminating extra mass and the small shock
absorbing action of conventional chuck jaws.

That and you can hit it a hell of a lot harder. I've used many rotary
impact drills over the years and none of them have come close to the
effectiveness of even a lowly SDS (pneumatic for the pedants) drill.

Where does the compressed air get generated?

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

I have yet to see a DIY drill with any sort of compressed air facility
in it.

What are you actually going on about?

The SDS drill I have uses a crank driven piston to push a second
free-flying piston into the back of the drill bit. That's pneumatic by
most people's standards, I think.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Tue, 23 May 2006 17:56:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Where does the compressed air get generated?

There's a piston that moves back and forth, and air couples this to a moving bit
of metal that gives the hammering action. ISTR Hilti had the patent, which
expired a while ago; hence the fall in price in hammer drills. Used to be
"Hilti" was what SDS is now.


Thomas Prufer

On Tue, 23 May 2006 11:06:01 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Its in the hammer action, not in the fact it says 'SDS' on it.

However, SDS has become a convenient shorthand for "pneumatic impact"

In which case I hope someone doesn't accidentally pick up my Bosch
Jigsaw with SDS and decide it's good for drilling big holes in stone
walls. :-)


--

The message
from Matt contains these words:

In which case I hope someone doesn't accidentally pick up my Bosch
Jigsaw with SDS and decide it's good for drilling big holes in stone
walls. :-)

Your /what/?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:
The message from Matt contains these words:
In which case I hope someone doesn't accidentally pick up my Bosch
Jigsaw with SDS and decide it's good for drilling big holes in stone
walls. :-)


Your /what/?

Bosch SDS jigsaw. I've got one, too.

I have a bosch like that. I tried opening it and somehow didnt managed
to pull apart the casing. I removed the clip holding the bearings but
still could access the motor. thanks for your post.

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
In which case I hope someone doesn't accidentally pick up my Bosch
Jigsaw with SDS and decide it's good for drilling big holes in stone
walls. :-)


Your /what/?

Bosch SDS jigsaw. I've got one, too.

And me. SDS just means you don't need a key to change the bit or blade.

--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:

Your /what/?

Bosch SDS jigsaw. I've got one, too.

But but but - I thought SDS stood for "Slotted Drive Shaft". Hardly fair
of Bosch to nick it for something else!

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On Tue, 23 May 2006 21:37:42 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

The message
from Matt contains these words:

In which case I hope someone doesn't accidentally pick up my Bosch
Jigsaw with SDS and decide it's good for drilling big holes in stone
walls. :-)

Your /what/?

http://www.bosch-pt.com/uk/en/gw/start/index.htm

search for GST135BCE

After clicking through to the page it mentions SDS in the second
paragraph.

"Highest possible convenience with the Bosch "SDS ", the world's
easiest way to change saw blades - using only one hand"

So SDS is basically bugger all to do with hammer action drills
Someone else, AEG? developed it so the Bosch interpretation might not
be spot on though.

Clicking on the SDS icon towards the bottom of the page clicked
through to above reveals this gem:

==

Bosch SDS System

Fast tool insertion and removal, without the need for additional
tools.


Bosch SDS-DI toolholder

For easy changes of diamond core cutters without keys.


SDS-Plus toolholder

Optimum power transfer and good guidance with auto-locking system. For
Rotary Hammers in the 2kg to 4kg class.


SDS-top toolholder

Sturdy toolholder especially designed for SDS-top tools with the 14 mm
diameter shaft. For Rotary Hammers in the 4kg class.


SDS-max toolholder

Optimum power transfer and good guidance with auto-locking system. For
Rotary Hammers and Demolition Hammers from the 5kg class onwards.

==

--

Chris Bacon wrote:
Guy King wrote:

The message from Matt contains these words:

In which case I hope someone doesn't accidentally pick up my Bosch
Jigsaw with SDS and decide it's good for drilling big holes in stone
walls. :-)



Your /what/?


Bosch SDS jigsaw. I've got one, too.

I have a Makita SDS jigsaw...

(the clue to its use is in the "jigsaw" bit of the name and not the
"sds" bit thought ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Guy King wrote:

The SDS drill I have uses a crank driven piston to push a second
free-flying piston into the back of the drill bit. That's pneumatic by
most people's standards, I think.

Nice cutaway drawing of one he

http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/part.../hr2450_ww.png

It uses a "swash plate" type bearing to convert the rotation of the
motor shaft into an oscilating motion. The piston (part 31) is the bit
that strikes the drill bit, and it looks like it just floats in the
cylinder (part 32) being pushed forward by air pressure.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The message
from contains these words:

Its a cheapo SDS, although I think that one may only be two function and
not three (i.e. no chisel mode).

Ah, not quite what I'm after, I'd want chisel mode, but I can't justify a
high price for what I do these days.

The vanilla SDS drill from Screwfix/B&Q etc has
drill/hammer/hammer+drill which sounds like what you want.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In article ,
Guy King wrote:
But but but - I thought SDS stood for "Slotted Drive Shaft". Hardly fair
of Bosch to nick it for something else!

That's a new one. Most say Special Drill System.

For some reason I've locked this post on the subject - so here it is:-

******************************************


From: Paul Scott
Subject: What is "SBS"?
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:45
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

From the Google uk.d-i-y archive.

=============

"Dave Hannigan" wrote in message
news:1007708144.27254.1@eurus...
International Man of Mystery wrote:

SDS means Splined Drill Shank and is a Bosch invention. The air
operated hammer hits only the drill bit, the chuck does not moved up
and down as in percussion hammer drills. Turn off the rotation of the
chuck and you have a Kango hammer.

If SDS means splined drill shank, why do bosch call quick release angle
grinder fittings (no spanner to change disks) SDS when there is no drill
or shank to refer to??

....because Adam is talking out of his arse as usual. Intrigued by the
lack of explanation for SDS in the patent and trademark literature, I
asked Bosch themselves, and got the following prompt response:

"SDS originally stood for the german Steck - Dreh- Sitzt (insert - twist -
stay)and simply refers to the patented Bosch "keyless chuck" system,
whereby drill bits (and saw blades in jigsaws) can be replaced without the
need for an allen key. Today SDS stands for Special Direct System or in
german Spannung Durch System."

So there you have it. Nothing to do with "Splined Drill Shank",
"Scruttocky Dumpling Stuffer", "Squalid Dimbelby Sock", or any other wild
imaginings from Adam. And since the "what does SDS stand for?" question
has been kicking around for so long in uk.d-i-y, can we have this added to
the FAQ under "Other Really Dull Stuff".

And if I really am in Adam's killfile, he's never going to know what SDS
stands for. Bwahahahahhahahaha!

Led
================

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Ian J Hill
writes



Never - Germans never use three words when one would do!

Something like Spannunddrehbohrmaschinespannfutter ?
--
raden

similar but has no mention of drills in the name..

It relates to the tool attachment itself.

IanJH


No success with a google search, but it's got me hooked now ...
--
raden

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Guy King wrote:
Bosch SDS jigsaw. I've got one, too.

But but but - I thought SDS stood for "Slotted Drive Shaft". Hardly
fair of Bosch to nick it for something else!

SDS stands for the initial letters of some German words meaning Insert Twist
Lock or something similar. T'was invented by Bosch in Germany so it
wouldn't stand for English words. It could and does apply to any quick
release, no tools required bit or blade change system.

The point is that without the SDS chuck/bit system allowing the bit to move
back & forth whilst still turning, the pnumatic hammer action wouldn't work.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
But but but - I thought SDS stood for "Slotted Drive Shaft". Hardly
fair of Bosch to nick it for something else!

SDS stands for the initial letters of some German words meaning Insert
Twist Lock or something similar. T'was invented by Bosch in Germany so
it wouldn't stand for English words. It could and does apply to any
quick release, no tools required bit or blade change system.

If you read my post - just before your one, and sent on Wednesday -
you'll get the true answer...

--
*It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.