Hi...
I am currently converting an upstairs toilet into a bathroom. I need to
take about a foot from a bedroom next to it. I don't think the wall
(breeze block) which is currently there is load bearing. But I was
goint to erect a load bearing stud wall before taking it down anyway,
to take any load there may be on it. Everyone I've spoke to says this
will be OK? I have been searching for guidelines/help online, but have
not come across anything.... Can anyone advise, or have any links?
Thank You
dw

You don't think it's load bearing? This is really one to be sure about.


Is this a job Building Control should really know about?

And what will the load bearing stud partition bear down upon beneath it?

dw wrote:
Hi...
I am currently converting an upstairs toilet into a bathroom. I need to
take about a foot from a bedroom next to it. I don't think the wall
(breeze block) which is currently there is load bearing. But I was
goint to erect a load bearing stud wall before taking it down anyway,
to take any load there may be on it. Everyone I've spoke to says this
will be OK? I have been searching for guidelines/help online, but have
not come across anything.... Can anyone advise, or have any links?
Thank You
dw


I have a couple of extremely load bearing stud walls. Instead of 4x2
covered in plasterboard, the builders used 6x3 and nailed marine ply -
19mm IIRC - to one side. And THEN covered it with plasterboard.

I should say that it makes the perfect bathroom wall ...easy to fix
stuff to, and plenty of depth for pipes.

I am currently converting an upstairs toilet into a bathroom. I need to
take about a foot from a bedroom next to it. I don't think the wall
(breeze block) which is currently there is load bearing. But I was
goint to erect a load bearing stud wall before taking it down anyway,
to take any load there may be on it. Everyone I've spoke to says this
will be OK? I have been searching for guidelines/help online, but have
not come across anything.... Can anyone advise, or have any links?


How have you got this past building control?

Peter Crosland

In article
Peter Crosland wrote:
I am currently converting an upstairs toilet into a bathroom. I need to
take about a foot from a bedroom next to it. I don't think the wall
(breeze block) which is currently there is load bearing. But I was
goint to erect a load bearing stud wall before taking it down anyway,
to take any load there may be on it. Everyone I've spoke to says this
will be OK? I have been searching for guidelines/help online, but have
not come across anything.... Can anyone advise, or have any links?


How have you got this past building control?

That's a trick question, isn't it? :-)

wrote:

And what will the load bearing stud partition bear down upon beneath it?

The wall thats there at the moment is breeze block, and sits directly
on the floor boards, where it 'stops'. So the stud wall would be the
same.
I've been told by several people (surveyor and builder inc.) that it's
not a load bearing wall currently, but I want to build the stud wall
along the lines that you would a load bearing one.

When you say 'building control' do you mean the building regs people
from te council?

Rob Morley wrote:

In article
Peter Crosland wrote:
I am currently converting an upstairs toilet into a bathroom. I need to
take about a foot from a bedroom next to it. I don't think the wall
(breeze block) which is currently there is load bearing. But I was
goint to erect a load bearing stud wall before taking it down anyway,
to take any load there may be on it. Everyone I've spoke to says this
will be OK? I have been searching for guidelines/help online, but have
not come across anything.... Can anyone advise, or have any links?


How have you got this past building control?

That's a trick question, isn't it? :-)

No. The trick question is how they came to built the wall on top of
floorboards.

I think he's going to be in the **** house when he does this job.

When you say 'building control' do you mean the building regs people
from te council?
Yes - the people you submit your building notice to when you do work
tha requires their approval.

This block wall on top of joists seems very odd, can you explain how
that came to be?

Well the wall is in a toilet, so I guess the **** house is appropraite!

The house is ex local authority, all the houses have this wall in them,
though most I've seen the wall has been moved.
I'm not actually sure the wall was there when the house was built,
think it may have been put in afterwards, when they decided that
everyone should have an inside toilet! I'll check with nieghbours to
see what they did. But the intention is that a new wall will be inplace
BEFORE the old one comes down, just to be sure, a surveyour has had a
look and says that would be ok. It's not as big a job as is seems, but
just wanted some pointers to 'load bearing stud walls, even though
there is nothing above or below the old or new wall!!!

dw wrote:
The wall thats there at the moment is breeze block, and sits directly
on the floor boards, where it 'stops'. So the stud wall would be the
same.
I've been told by several people (surveyor and builder inc.) that it's
not a load bearing wall currently, but I want to build the stud wall
along the lines that you would a load bearing one.

When you say 'building control' do you mean the building regs people
from te council?

Don't tell him, Pike!

eh?

Obviously depends on the load the wall will be carrying. Typically
used to be 4" * 2" with double header and sole plate. Would guess at
400 or maybe 450 centres with horizontal strutting at 900 intervals
max. Timber frame houses would use this a lot but dunno where you would
get the tech details from.
Legin

dw wrote:


The house is ex local authority, all the houses have this wall in them,
though most I've seen the wall has been moved.

Why would anyone build a heavy-weight brieze (sp?) block wall on top
of a wooden wall?
More importantly, what does this solid wall support?

Enough people have rung alarm bells over your plans to cause you to
pause
and get expert advice on whether your forthcoming actions are safe.
If you pay an expert and he/she gives you written confirmation that
your actions
will be safe then you can sue them if the house falls down.
That presumes you will still be alive to sue them, and still will have
all your
family members alive and in working order.
Hoping that you can forgive my pessimism, but there are some jobs that
you just
have to pay for greater experience with. Don't get me wrong, I'm all
for DIY, its just
that you must always ensure your enthusiasm doesn't eclipse your
competence.
Building regulations can seem like a ball and chain, but I can see that
they are
there to pass on bitter experience so that the next person doesn't come
to as
much harm as the previous person.

Let us know how you get on. Can I finally request that you tell us
which town
you live in - it makes tying up the BBC news article easier!

Respectfully,

Mungo


I'm not actually sure the wall was there when the house was built,
think it may have been put in afterwards, when they decided that
everyone should have an inside toilet! I'll check with nieghbours to
see what they did. But the intention is that a new wall will be inplace
BEFORE the old one comes down, just to be sure, a surveyour has had a
look and says that would be ok. It's not as big a job as is seems, but
just wanted some pointers to 'load bearing stud walls, even though
there is nothing above or below the old or new wall!!!

Timber must have been expensive and brieze must've been cheap...

dw wrote:
eh?

Dad's Army joke - a perceived enemy demandsPvt Pike to tell him his name,
and Cpt Mannering says "Don't tell him, Pike!".

The message
from "Steve Walker" contains these words:

a perceived enemy

I think in the context of the second world war a German U-boat captain
could well be described as a definite enemy.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

wrote:
When you say 'building control' do you mean the building regs people
from te council?
Yes - the people you submit your building notice to when you do work
tha requires their approval.

This block wall on top of joists seems very odd, can you explain how
that came to be?

Almost all council houses around hese parts built just after the war have
these walls upstairs, why they didn't just use studding like todays houses I
don't know.

To the OP, the wall isn't holding anything up or it would be continuous from
downstairs.
Load bearing walls are seldom built on floorboards and if you get in the
loft with a lamp you will see what's on top of it, my guess is fibreglass
and nothing else.

Don't tell BC, just whip the bugger out and put in a normal studded wall, 3
X 2 timbers will suffice.

You could always get a builder in, but you would just be paying someone to
put in a studded wall on 3 X 2 timbers, if you can DIY then DI!

Phil L wrote:

To the OP, the wall isn't holding anything up or it would be continuous from
downstairs.

This is not always the case. Load bearing walls *do not* have to have
continuous walls beneath them.

Load bearing walls are seldom built on floorboards and if you get in the

Load bearing walls are actually built on floorboards (or more commonly
joists) relatively frequently.

loft with a lamp you will see what's on top of it, my guess is fibreglass
and nothing else.

This probably is true.

Don't tell BC, just whip the bugger out

If you wish to avoid problems selling the house in the future it would
be wise to consult BC to see if approval is required.

and put in a normal studded wall, 3
X 2 timbers will suffice.

Even if it is load bearing? You designed this based on what knowledge of
the OPs house?

To the OP: Chances are the wall you have is not load bearing (especially
if BC and a builder have confirmed this) however the heuristics Phil has
given here for arriving at this conclusion are not safe.



--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

dw wrote:

not come across anything.... Can anyone advise, or have any links?

To all intents a load bearing stud wall can look very much like any
other stud wall. Timber of choice would be 4x2 on 400mm c/c. It would
have a foot and head rail running the full length of the wall. Cladding
would be PB, and contents (these days) some form of insulating and noise
deadening foam (like cork backed PIR foam).

If it is running perpendicular to the joists, it can sit directly on
them or on foorboards on them. If is is parallel to the joists, then the
joist would normally be "doubled up" (i.e. a pair of simmilar timbers
side by side nailed or bolted together), and the wall sat directly over
the joist. It could be on the flooring, but in these cases it would more
commonly be directly sat on the joist.

Where a load bearing wall is carried by a floor with no direct support
under the wall, the joists need to have been specified to allow not only
for the normal floor load, but also the point load introduced by the wall.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Phil L wrote:

To the OP, the wall isn't holding anything up or it would be
continuous from downstairs.

This is not always the case. Load bearing walls *do not* have to have
continuous walls beneath them.

Load bearing walls are seldom built on floorboards and if you get in
the

Load bearing walls are actually built on floorboards (or more commonly
joists) relatively frequently.


Not in any of the houses I've worked on, and I live in an ex council house
built at the same time as the OP's

loft with a lamp you will see what's on top of it, my guess is
fibreglass and nothing else.

This probably is true.

Don't tell BC, just whip the bugger out

If you wish to avoid problems selling the house in the future it would
be wise to consult BC to see if approval is required.

I've been in the building game all my life and have never known anyone to
inform BC when removing non load bearing walls, YMMV.


and put in a normal studded wall, 3
X 2 timbers will suffice.

Even if it is load bearing? You designed this based on what knowledge
of the OPs house?

Based on the knowledge that a builder and a surveyor have confirmed it's non
load bearing, what does he need? - a sworn statement from the pope?

To the OP: Chances are the wall you have is not load bearing
(especially if BC and a builder have confirmed this) however the
heuristics Phil has given here for arriving at this conclusion are
not safe.

Haha.
What do you think are used to build all upstairs walls in newbuild
properties today?
What do you think builders use for studding? - I'll give you a clue, it
isn't anything larger than 3 X 2

Phil L wrote:

Load bearing walls are actually built on floorboards (or more commonly
joists) relatively frequently.



Not in any of the houses I've worked on, and I live in an ex council house
built at the same time as the OP's

As I said, I was agreeing with your assessment of the OPs situation, his
wall is highly unlikely to be load bearing. What I was disagreeing with
was the assumption that because a wall is either stud, or not built over
another wall to ground floor level, that it could not be load bearing.

This may not have been the impression you intended to give, but this is
how it sounded.

I've been in the building game all my life and have never known anyone to
inform BC when removing non load bearing walls, YMMV.

It more usually depends on if the change results in a change of use of a
room, the number of rooms, the viability of fire escape routes etc.

and put in a normal studded wall, 3
X 2 timbers will suffice.

Even if it is load bearing? You designed this based on what knowledge
of the OPs house?


Based on the knowledge that a builder and a surveyor have confirmed it's non
load bearing, what does he need? - a sworn statement from the pope?

Very little.

My comment was addressed to the situation of it it were load bearing.

To the OP: Chances are the wall you have is not load bearing
(especially if BC and a builder have confirmed this) however the
heuristics Phil has given here for arriving at this conclusion are
not safe.


Haha.
What do you think are used to build all upstairs walls in newbuild
properties today?

For load bearing stud wall in wood, a minimum of 4x2" typically. However
it would depend on the load in question.

What do you think builders use for studding? - I'll give you a clue, it
isn't anything larger than 3 X 2

For a simple dividing wall certainly - or even less.

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18 Apr 2006 12:22:15 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

This block wall on top of joists seems very odd, can you explain how
that came to be?

Quite common in older properties which were built before the
ever-vigilant Building Control Officers put a stop to it.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula wrote:
On 18 Apr 2006 12:22:15 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

This block wall on top of joists seems very odd, can you explain how
that came to be?

Quite common in older properties which were built before the
ever-vigilant Building Control Officers put a stop to it.

I have it in a 1970s house which I don't consider particularly old.

MBQ

Wrote:
Hugo Nebula wrote:
On 18 Apr 2006 12:22:15 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

This block wall on top of joists seems very odd, can you explain how
that came to be?

Quite common in older properties which were built before the
ever-vigilant Building Control Officers put a stop to it.

I have it in a 1970s house which I don't consider particularly old.

MBQ

I worked on an estate of houses in the early 1990's and they all had
blockwork partitions built directly of off the floor boards.


--
Nick H

John Rumm wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Load bearing walls are actually built on floorboards (or more
commonly joists) relatively frequently.



Not in any of the houses I've worked on, and I live in an ex council
house built at the same time as the OP's

As I said, I was agreeing with your assessment of the OPs situation,
his wall is highly unlikely to be load bearing. What I was
disagreeing with was the assumption that because a wall is either
stud, or not built over another wall to ground floor level, that it
could not be load bearing.

I meant his wall, not any wall in any house, although from all the newbuild
houses I've worked on (cavity wall insulation for 12 yrs and about half of
the houses (1 a day typically) were newbuild and done from inside prior to
plaster) I've never known a load bearing wall upstairs, in fact, the
downstairs walls were block and upstairs were usually floorboarded out
completely before any walls erected, obviously the rooves were finished
prior to insulation, so I can't imagine that any 'load' would be on the
walls at all.

This may not have been the impression you intended to give, but this
is how it sounded.

I apologise )


I've been in the building game all my life and have never known
anyone to inform BC when removing non load bearing walls, YMMV.

It more usually depends on if the change results in a change of use
of a room, the number of rooms, the viability of fire escape routes
etc.

Yes, but not in the case of extending a toilet/washroom by a foot.



Based on the knowledge that a builder and a surveyor have confirmed
it's non load bearing, what does he need? - a sworn statement from
the pope?

Very little.

My comment was addressed to the situation of it it were load bearing.

aha.


To the OP: Chances are the wall you have is not load bearing
(especially if BC and a builder have confirmed this) however the
heuristics Phil has given here for arriving at this conclusion are
not safe.


Haha.
What do you think are used to build all upstairs walls in newbuild
properties today?

For load bearing stud wall in wood, a minimum of 4x2" typically.
However it would depend on the load in question.

As above, in the houses I've worked on I've never seen 4X2 studding,
although when the OP's house was built this may have been the case (late
forties/early fifties), again a guess, but literally millions of council
estates went up during this era, paid for by uncle Sam.


What do you think builders use for studding? - I'll give you a clue,
it isn't anything larger than 3 X 2

For a simple dividing wall certainly - or even less.


This 'scant' that they sell now is garbage, it's less than 3X2 and it's not
even stopped growing! - if you leave a piece somewhere and go back to it a
few months later, it's tied itself in knots! - i've used a nailgun on new
pine and the nails will go almost through the timber, it's forced to grow so
quickly and planted so close that the wood isn't 'solid, it's almost like
balsa.... old reclaimed timbers are best, although they should be treated
before use.