On buying our last (ground floor) flat, built 1890s the 'survey' showed
rising damp around the entire outer skin of the place. Now, we couldn't
buy without making a commitment to rectify it because the bank
threatened to withold a portion of the mortgage.

Now, having recently seen 'surveyors' in action - the buyers 'surveyor'
took 8 minutes to 'survey' it when we sold it and flagged up damp again
- apparently the recent chemical damp-proof course had holes in it which
we had to pay to have fixed.

Yes, we had to pay because the 25 year guarantee we had was worthless
since the company had mysteriously folded and re-surfaced under a
practically identical name... We found out later how common this
practice is.

Aaaanyway, the damp meter that the guy used was "a professional one" and
showed damp in places my obviously amateur one didn't.

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated,
does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?

--
-----------
Zoinks !
Another weekend b*ggered.
-----------

Zoinks wrote:
On buying our last (ground floor) flat, built 1890s the 'survey' showed
rising damp around the entire outer skin of the place. Now, we couldn't
buy without making a commitment to rectify it because the bank
threatened to withold a portion of the mortgage.

Now, having recently seen 'surveyors' in action - the buyers 'surveyor'
took 8 minutes to 'survey' it when we sold it and flagged up damp again
- apparently the recent chemical damp-proof course had holes in it which
we had to pay to have fixed.

Yes, we had to pay because the 25 year guarantee we had was worthless
since the company had mysteriously folded and re-surfaced under a
practically identical name... We found out later how common this
practice is.

Aaaanyway, the damp meter that the guy used was "a professional one" and
showed damp in places my obviously amateur one didn't.

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated,
does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?


The last bit is missing the obvious (c;

--
-----------
Zoinks !
Another weekend b*ggered.
-----------

Zoinks wrote:

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated

They aren't.


does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?

Yes, it is.

Damp meters are useless. This is because they measure the surface damp,
which is almost always caused by condensation. They tell you nothing
about the overall state of the wall.


--
Grunff

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated

They aren't.


does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?

Yes, it is.

Damp meters are useless. This is because they measure the surface damp,
which is almost always caused by condensation. They tell you nothing
about the overall state of the wall.


Next time get a insurance backed damp proof guarantee. Then it won't
matter if the company folds/renames itself in clever move.

wrote:


Next time get a insurance backed damp proof guarantee. Then it won't
matter if the company folds/renames itself in clever move.

I know, 20:20 hindsight sigh. We were young, foolish and trusting (now
old, wiser and cynical).

Still, worth letting everyone else know s'pose.

It was amusing when the guy from the original company turned up to give
us a quote. Man, he must have had b*lls like melons to think he could
get away with that. SWMBO went to town on him.

--
-----------
Zoinks !
Another weekend b*ggered.
-----------

wrote in message
oups.com...

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated

They aren't.


does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a
scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?

Yes, it is.

Damp meters are useless. This is because they measure the surface damp,
which is almost always caused by condensation. They tell you nothing
about the overall state of the wall.


Next time get a insurance backed damp proof guarantee. Then it won't
matter if the company folds/renames itself in clever move.


Just pay on your credit card and the credit card company is equally liable
for the warrantee.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:31:09 +0000, Zoinks wrote:

wrote:


Next time get a insurance backed damp proof guarantee. Then it won't
matter if the company folds/renames itself in clever move.

I know, 20:20 hindsight sigh. We were young, foolish and trusting (now
old, wiser and cynical).

Still, worth letting everyone else know s'pose.

It was amusing when the guy from the original company turned up to give
us a quote. Man, he must have had b*lls like melons to think he could
get away with that. SWMBO went to town on him.


Was that because of his (er) "attributes" ? ;-)



--

..andy

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:53:20 +0000, Zoinks wrote:


Now, the questions - how good are damp meters,

There are two sorts, the electric ones simply measure resistance and
were designed originally for the quick assessment of moisture content
in timber during seasoning and after kiln drying. In this role they
are relatively accurate as the conductivity of different types of
wood relative to their water content is pretty constant. Rather than
displaying resistance the scale could be marked in water content for
different wood types and a numpty could be let loose with one.

At some stage someone decided they could be used for measuring
moisture in walls. At this they are almost completely worthless as
the resistivity of wall material is variable and not proportional to
moisture content alone. Funnily enough the damp proofing "industry"
is something almost unique to the UK, "rising damp" and the worthless
chemical injection "damp proofing" doesn't appear to be an issue
anywhere else in the world.

The second group of measures involve taking a sample from a wall
using a core drill, weighing it, drying it and weighing it again.
These need a trained operator, will give fairly accurate readings and
invariably find little or no evidence of "rising damp"

See
http://www.ebssurvey.co.uk/dampness.htm
http://www.handr.co.uk/literature/rising_damp.htm
http://www.pdoyle.net/Moisture_Meters.html (lots of other information
on that site as well)

how are they calibrated,

For wood. Fir at 7% moisture will show a resistance of about
22Megaohms falling to 0.5Meg for 25% moisture. Walls are anyones
guess.

does it take an expert to use one ?

Yes, to do it properly. Given to the usually salesgrots with an IQ
in the low 20's found in the dampscams there are an endless number of
errors they can make by accident (never mind the deliberate ones)
including:-

Diagnosing condensation as rising damp. This is the most common as
condensation will occur more on lower (cooler) parts of the wall than
higher up. The numpty with the meter will find higher readings
further down the wall than higher up and declare its "rising damp".

Conductive wall materials. Many old houses used clinker blocks
(breezeblock) derived from coal or steel industry waste. This is
naturally conductive and will always show "damp" even when bone dry.

Empty house. Any house which has been empty for some time with no
heating on (other than during summer) will have damp walls. As the
heating is turned on the moisture content of the air rises and
moisture condenses on the walls increasing (temporarily) their
moisture content. The numptymeter will show increasing damp readings
at lower wall levels (I've seen a Rentokil "surveyor" diagnose rising
damp in a first floor bedroom using this "varying resistance"
assumption. When asked how it got 15ft up the wall he declared that
damp was cunning stuff).

Is this whole damp thing just a scam

Yes.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Zoinks wrote:

Aaaanyway, the damp meter that the guy used was "a professional one"
and showed damp in places my obviously amateur one didn't.

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they

Those I have seen are nothing more than electrical resistance meters.
They can give a fair idea of the moisture content of timber (for which
many are designed it seems) but tell you lots of random stuff you don't
need to know about walls (like they are built of electrically conductive
(high carbon content) cinder blocks that always look damp to a meter, or
you have a foiled wallpaper)

calibrated, does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp

Calibrated, yeah right ;-)

expert con artist perhaps.

thing just a scam between the suryeyors, the bank and the
damp-proofing thieves ?


The last bit is missing the obvious (c;

Smiley not required IMHO - you hit the nail right on the head.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Zoinks wrote:
On buying our last (ground floor) flat, built 1890s the 'survey' showed
rising damp around the entire outer skin of the place. Now, we couldn't
buy without making a commitment to rectify it because the bank
threatened to withold a portion of the mortgage.

Now, having recently seen 'surveyors' in action - the buyers 'surveyor'
took 8 minutes to 'survey' it when we sold it and flagged up damp again
- apparently the recent chemical damp-proof course had holes in it which
we had to pay to have fixed.

Yes, we had to pay because the 25 year guarantee we had was worthless
since the company had mysteriously folded and re-surfaced under a
practically identical name... We found out later how common this
practice is.

Aaaanyway, the damp meter that the guy used was "a professional one" and
showed damp in places my obviously amateur one didn't.

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated,
does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?


Damp meters do have some use on walls, but its not what its generally
interpreted as. The only thing they can do is prove dryness with a high
R reading. A low R means more or less nothing,as it has a number of
causes: damp problem, damp but no problem, normal transient surface
moisture, conductive building materials, salt contamination with or
without damp (eg due to a drink spill), conductive foil vapour barrier,
fingers across meter contacts, and so on.

Forget the scam merchants, look at the wall and tell us from that if
you have damp. Do you have salt crusting with plaster blowing? Do you
have water dribling down the wall? Black mould on the wall? If you've
got none of those, the walls dont have a damp problem.


What about solutions? Since these salespeople say whatever suits them,
I'd try inviting another one in for a free damp survey. And mentioning
when theyre about to start that youve had some nonsense talk of damp,
are angry about it, and will do a core sample if their check doesnt
confirm the obvious fact that there is no damp problem. This is likely
to frighten them into behaving and giving an all clear, then you have
evidence to give to the bank that there is no damp problem.

Its a joke that lenders tke this stuff seriously, but they do. They
havent seen the house and dont know what state its in, and want to
avoid any risk to themselves. If they had more integrity they'd
recommend a genuine damp expert check up on reports of damp, though
these are few and far between. And they'd warn surveyors that they
recommend follow ups of such disagnoses with proper checks, and will
not employ them in future if they falsely diagnose damp. But its easier
to just sit and watch the customer get scammed.


NT

Peter Parry wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:53:20 +0000, Zoinks wrote:



Now, the questions - how good are damp meters,


There are two sorts, the electric ones simply measure resistance and
were designed originally for the quick assessment of moisture content
in timber during seasoning and after kiln drying. In this role they
are relatively accurate as the conductivity of different types of
wood relative to their water content is pretty constant. Rather than
displaying resistance the scale could be marked in water content for
different wood types and a numpty could be let loose with one.

At some stage someone decided they could be used for measuring
moisture in walls. At this they are almost completely worthless as
the resistivity of wall material is variable and not proportional to
moisture content alone. Funnily enough the damp proofing "industry"
is something almost unique to the UK, "rising damp" and the worthless
chemical injection "damp proofing" doesn't appear to be an issue
anywhere else in the world.

The second group of measures involve taking a sample from a wall
using a core drill, weighing it, drying it and weighing it again.
These need a trained operator, will give fairly accurate readings and
invariably find little or no evidence of "rising damp"

See
http://www.ebssurvey.co.uk/dampness.htm
http://www.handr.co.uk/literature/rising_damp.htm
http://www.pdoyle.net/Moisture_Meters.html (lots of other information
on that site as well)


how are they calibrated,


For wood. Fir at 7% moisture will show a resistance of about
22Megaohms falling to 0.5Meg for 25% moisture. Walls are anyones
guess.


does it take an expert to use one ?


Yes, to do it properly. Given to the usually salesgrots with an IQ
in the low 20's found in the dampscams there are an endless number of
errors they can make by accident (never mind the deliberate ones)
including:-

Diagnosing condensation as rising damp. This is the most common as
condensation will occur more on lower (cooler) parts of the wall than
higher up. The numpty with the meter will find higher readings
further down the wall than higher up and declare its "rising damp".

Conductive wall materials. Many old houses used clinker blocks
(breezeblock) derived from coal or steel industry waste. This is
naturally conductive and will always show "damp" even when bone dry.

Empty house. Any house which has been empty for some time with no
heating on (other than during summer) will have damp walls. As the
heating is turned on the moisture content of the air rises and
moisture condenses on the walls increasing (temporarily) their
moisture content. The numptymeter will show increasing damp readings
at lower wall levels (I've seen a Rentokil "surveyor" diagnose rising
damp in a first floor bedroom using this "varying resistance"
assumption. When asked how it got 15ft up the wall he declared that
damp was cunning stuff).

Easily the best answer to a question I've ever had on a newsgroup.
Thanks Peter.

The meter used in the buyer's survey had two prongs and was clearly a
resistance type.
It's as accuracy and functioning sounds similar to that of a Ouija board.

Considering the amount of money, time and effort it cost us I'm simply
staggered that the banks put so much insistance in pursuing the findings
of such things. Not to mention the fact that it could have sunk the
whole housebuying chain.

--
-----------
Zoinks !
Another weekend b*ggered.
-----------

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:56:44 GMT, "dennis@home"
wrote:

wrote

Next time get a insurance backed damp proof guarantee. Then it won't
matter if the company folds/renames itself in clever move.


Just pay on your credit card and the credit card company is equally liable
for the warrantee.

With both "insurance backed" and Credit Card claims you will I have
no doubt be absolutely amazed to find out that most of _their_
surveys show no trace of rising damp but lots of condensation - which
isn't covered by any guarantee :-)

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In message , Zoinks
writes
Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated,
does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a
scam between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?

It's definitely a scam, in the sense that it is not dealt with properly,
and the DP companies take advantage of this.

Lenders and buyers have a habit of suing surveyors, so the surveyors
cover their backsides with these meters which dont tell the whole story.

To be honest, there is no collusion between any of the parties, and we
probably get the surveys we deserve.... just like we get the estate
agency service we deserve...... g

--
Richard Faulkner

In message ,
Zoinks writes
Considering the amount of money, time and effort it cost us I'm simply
staggered that the banks put so much insistance in pursuing the
findings of such things. Not to mention the fact that it could have
sunk the whole housebuying chain.


Therein lies the root of the problem.

I usually budget for a retention due to damp proofing, then dont bother
doing it. (Not easy for 1st time buyers).

--
Richard Faulkner

Now, the questions - how good are damp meters, how are they calibrated,
does it take an expert to use one ? Is this whole damp thing just a scam
between the suryeyors, the bank and the damp-proofing thieves ?

I was about to get into giving you a detailed response to this post
when I notice Peter Parry had provided a link to the page on my site
that covers more or less everything you were asking - almost.

To the specific questions above however: a good damp meter is very
good but the way it's used is crucial . Unfortunately the majority of
surveyors, both chartered and damp-proofing, use them incorrectly.
Electronic moisture meters can only indicate moisture, they cannot
quantify it, and this is important because the vast majority of older
houses have a degree of dampness, which in most cases is completely
insignificant, in the base of their walls. It'll have been there since
- in your case 1891 - and it'll be there till 2891, without doing any
harm whatever. As these extremely sensitive meters will detect the
smallest amount of moisture, the poor old punter is on a hiding to
nothing.

It isn't a scam between the surveyors the bank and the others. It's a
result of litigation. As someone else pointed out on this thread,
chartered surveyors don't want their PII premiums to rocket; so they
don't take chances. When their meters show 'damp', or sometimes, even
if they don't, they slope their shoulders and tell you to get a
'specialists' opinion. And this is the unbelievable part of the whole
debacle; because what they are actually saying is "go and ask the
opinion of someone who makes a living by inserting damp proof courses.
He might not want to earn any money today and, instead of giving you a
'quickie' (in more senses than one), he may even take the trouble to
ascertain the true cause and severity of any dampness and advise you
that his services won't be of much help to you. I know that to do this
it will take him at least an hour and a half and probably won't make
him any money, but you just might get lucky. I don't really care one
way or the other though, because it won't be my insurance policy that
gets caned if it all goes wrong. Bye Bye"


If you think I'm cynical you're absolutely right, but then again, I get
asked every day whey I don't do 'free' surveys. But that's a different
story!

HTH

Patrick

www.pdoyle.net