On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:35:41 +0000, Steve Firth
wrote:

Hmm but do you reckon he's going to able to buy sulphuric acid stronger
than 1M anywhere?

Yes, as drain cleaner. It's my standard source for cheap conc. H2SO4

My favourite brand is from "Thaumaturgy Ltd." Now there's a brandname
to trust!

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:19:28 +0000, Tim S wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:06:46 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:02:58 +0000, Les Desser wrote:

But I don't understand the rest of it. Soap IS |(or was ) sheep fat and
caustic...

Is/ was olive oil and caustic. Sheep fat is lanolin IIRC

I though lanolin was sheep sebum, ie wool/skin grease?

Tim

I think thats what he said. What I said was that mixing lanolin and caustic
gives a decent soap.

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 02:01:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:19:28 +0000, Tim S wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:06:46 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:02:58 +0000, Les Desser wrote:

But I don't understand the rest of it. Soap IS |(or was ) sheep fat and
caustic...

Is/ was olive oil and caustic. Sheep fat is lanolin IIRC

I though lanolin was sheep sebum, ie wool/skin grease?

Tim

I think thats what he said. What I said was that mixing lanolin and caustic
gives a decent soap.

I usually read "fat" as internal fat, lanolin I would usually think of as
a grease.

Most fats (internal or external) make reasonable soap when mixed
with caustic though, don't they (if Fight Club is to be believed)? We did
the soap thing at school, though the result wasn't very convincing
(caustic scunge IIRC).

Cheers

Tim

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:40:29 +0000, Tim S wrote:

I usually read "fat" as internal fat, lanolin I would usually think of as
a grease.

Grease is (prettty much by definition, for 20th century technical
definitions) some mixture of soaps and fats. Even stuff you put in wheel
bearings is, although the definition of "soap" is stretching it a bit
here - it means a saponified oily stuff, more than anything you might
think of for washing with. Even original formulation napalm is a grease
- a mixture of soap and oil, so as to thicken it and make it behave like
a thick grease.

Lanolin won't truly be a grease unless your sheep have been rolling in
ashes (and if they're loose fleeces, they may well have been). Things
feel "greasy" (as opposed to merely fatty) because they have had some
saponification going on. Don't stick your hands in caustic soda, but
washing soda or potash lyes have their distinctive greasy feeling
because the oils in your skin are getting saponified.

Grease is (prettty much by definition, for 20th century technical
definitions) some mixture of soaps and fats.
Even stuff you put in wheel
bearings is

Oil derived I think. Same family as petroleum jelly, paraffin wax etc.

Things feel "greasy" (as opposed to merely fatty) because they have had some
saponification going on.

Only things containing fatty acids can be saponified i.e. not petroleum
based substances.

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:15:41 -0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

Lanolin won't truly be a grease unless your sheep have been rolling in
ashes (and if they're loose fleeces, they may well have been). Things
feel "greasy" (as opposed to merely fatty) because they have had some
saponification going on. Don't stick your hands in caustic soda, but
washing soda or potash lyes have their distinctive greasy feeling
because the oils in your skin are getting saponified.

More importantly your skin proteins are being hydrolysed. Because caustics
do not denature protein, they penetrate flesh more deeply than the strong
mineral acids (I excluse HF because it is technically a weak acid). 0.88
ammonia is another surprisingly nasty customer. Alcoholic solutions of
sodium and potassium hydroxides go for flesh in a *big* way. Above all
avoid getting the stuff in your eyes, it will penetrate to the retina and
permanently damage it.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:15:11 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

Only things containing fatty acids can be saponified i.e. not petroleum
based substances.

You can make fatty acids from petroleum products too. "Fat" is a valid
chemical term, not necessarily implying animal origin.

The family business used to be haulage. We moved tons of "tall oil fatty
acid" (looked like paraffin wax crumbs) from Stanlow when I was a kid.
The name always made me laugh.

yped


The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Acid is actually more dangerous.,especially in eyes.

I havent experienced either, but everything I've read seems to indicate
alkalis are much worse for eyes. Acid results in instant action and
surface damage. Alkali in the eye can be so innocuous at first that no
action gets taken, but it will eat right into the eyeball gradually,
and do major damage.

Caustic should be taken seriously re eye damage imho.

Mine too. I've only had 20 years experience as a doctor in Accident &
Emergenccy, so YMMV...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:15:11 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:


Only things containing fatty acids can be saponified i.e. not petroleum
based substances.


You can make fatty acids from petroleum products too.

Can you? Not being sarcastic, but I'd like to know how.

"Fat" is a valid
chemical term, not necessarily implying animal origin.

Can be vegetable, but I don't see how it could be of mineral origin.

The family business used to be haulage. We moved tons of "tall oil fatty
acid" (looked like paraffin wax crumbs) from Stanlow when I was a kid.
The name always made me laugh.

That's vegetable based though.

The Natural Philosopher typed

ALL DIY is potentially dangerous and also lethal. Falling off ladders,
electric shock, severe trauma from power tools - ask your A & E..hernias
from lifting sacks, back pain...tetanus and other raging infections from
scratches splinters and cuts in the garden...

Caustiic burns? I doubt they see one a year.

Not true. There's caustic in the eyes -very nasty- delayed skin burns,
cement burns (alkali burns as well)...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

The Natural Philosopher typed


On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:02:58 +0000, Les Desser wrote:

In article , Andrew
Mawson Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:40:23
writes

In my experience caustic soda is good for fatty deposits - kitchens
etc, and sulphuric acid is good for hair balls - baths & showers.
Beware that sulphuric acid will stain baths and shower trays so be very
careful how you pour it.

Quote from http://proterraonline.homestead.com/homecare_drains.html

Although it is sold commercially as a drain cleaner, never use caustic
soda to open a drain. It will combine with the grease from soap or food
wastes to form an insoluble compound.

That does not compute. I've used it many any times to dissolve fats - on
cookers and in the drains.

It may form insoluble saltst with other things however..but fat seems to be
teh most uysal cause.

Are you sure?
There are almost no insoluble sodium salts of anything, are there?


Potash lye or caustic potash may
be added to finish opening a drain, but never use them on a completely
stopped up drain. They may take as long as overnight to work, and if you
ultimately have to open the trap, the chemicals would be a hazard.

Maybe US soap and food is different??

I'd agree that a completely blocked drain is something to be wary of.

But I don't understand the rest of it. Soap IS |(or was ) sheep fat and
caustic...

Indeed.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Stuart Noble typed


But I don't understand the rest of it. Soap IS |(or was ) sheep fat and
caustic...

Is/ was olive oil and caustic. Sheep fat is lanolin IIRC

Soaps are made from olive oil (sodium oleate), palm oil (sodium
palmitate), sheep fat (sodium talloate/stearate) etc.

Lanolin is sheep wool fat IIRC.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Tim S typed


On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:06:46 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:02:58 +0000, Les Desser wrote:

But I don't understand the rest of it. Soap IS |(or was ) sheep fat and
caustic...

Is/ was olive oil and caustic. Sheep fat is lanolin IIRC

I though lanolin was sheep sebum, ie wool/skin grease?

So did I

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

In message , John Schmitt
writes
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:15:41 -0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

Lanolin won't truly be a grease unless your sheep have been rolling in
ashes (and if they're loose fleeces, they may well have been). Things
feel "greasy" (as opposed to merely fatty) because they have had some
saponification going on. Don't stick your hands in caustic soda, but
washing soda or potash lyes have their distinctive greasy feeling
because the oils in your skin are getting saponified.

More importantly your skin proteins are being hydrolysed. Because
caustics do not denature protein, they penetrate flesh more deeply
than the strong mineral acids (I excluse HF because it is technically
a weak acid). 0.88 ammonia is another surprisingly nasty customer.

So what's the long term consequence of making all that ammonium
tri-iodide as a kid ?


Alcoholic solutions of sodium and potassium hydroxides go for flesh in
a *big* way. Above all avoid getting the stuff in your eyes, it will
penetrate to the retina and permanently damage it.

John Schmitt


--
geoff

In article , Steve Firth
writes
Steve S wrote:

snip

Similarly, conc. sulphuric gets very hot when diluted. If attempting to
dilute sulphuric acid *always* add acid to water, *never* the other way
round. That way, if it boils and spits you are more likely to get splashed
with dilute acid. Eye protection etc. is a must.

Hmm but do you reckon he's going to able to buy sulphuric acid stronger
than 1M anywhere? Seems unlikely to me. It's difficult enough finding
hydrochloric acid for pavement cleaning.

bought some 96% Sulphuric from the plumbing merchants last week, cleared
the blockage a treat

--
David

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes



The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Acid is actually more dangerous.,especially in eyes.

I havent experienced either, but everything I've read seems to indicate
alkalis are much worse for eyes. Acid results in instant action and
surface damage. Alkali in the eye can be so innocuous at first that no
action gets taken, but it will eat right into the eyeball gradually,
and do major damage.

Caustic should be taken seriously re eye damage imho.

Mine too. I've only had 20 years experience as a doctor in Accident &
Emergenccy, so YMMV...

Sounds like you're, as they say, a bugger for punishment

20 years in A&E ...

--
geoff

raden wrote:

So what's the long term consequence of making all that ammonium
tri-iodide as a kid ?

Is that the stuff that went bang on impact?

I recall mixing potassium permanganate with something to make a paste that
exploded on contact once dry.

Dave

raden wrote:

Sounds like you're, as they say, a bugger for punishment

20 years in A&E ...

These people are a strange breed. My daughter is an EMT2 with London
Ambulance - cant wait to get to work in the morning. Weird :-)

Dave

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:44:50 +0000, david lang wrote:

raden wrote:

So what's the long term consequence of making all that ammonium
tri-iodide as a kid ?

Is that the stuff that went bang on impact?

It was nitrogen tri-iodide, and yes, it goes bang very easily
made from ammonia solution (conc) and aqueous iodine solution. Fairly
stable when wet - allegedly fun to poke the paste into people's door lock
and wait for it to dry out.

Ooops, I must be a terrorist... If you want a really big bang, try (or
don't) nitrogen tri-chloride. It's a liquid. First bloke to make it ended
up minus an eye and some fingers.

I recall mixing potassium permanganate with something to make a paste that
exploded on contact once dry.

pot permang + drop of glycerine was fun too. Goes up by itself after a
minute or two.

Tim

In message , david
lang writes
raden wrote:

So what's the long term consequence of making all that ammonium
tri-iodide as a kid ?

Is that the stuff that went bang on impact?

yes


I recall mixing potassium permanganate with something to make a paste that
exploded on contact once dry.


Prolly more girly


--
geoff

In message , Tim S
writes
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:44:50 +0000, david lang wrote:

raden wrote:

So what's the long term consequence of making all that ammonium
tri-iodide as a kid ?

Is that the stuff that went bang on impact?

It was nitrogen tri-iodide, and yes, it goes bang very easily
made from ammonia solution (conc) and aqueous iodine solution. Fairly
stable when wet -

Initially, yes,

but it becomes unstable after a time ( a couple of days)

I once had about 1/2 " under water in a jam jar go off in my hand

I ended up with the screw thread still intact and a violet stain on the
ceiling and floor

and another stain which I'm not willing to discuss

scary, it was ...



allegedly fun to poke the paste into people's door lock
and wait for it to dry out.

Ooops, I must be a terrorist... If you want a really big bang, try (or
don't) nitrogen tri-chloride. It's a liquid. First bloke to make it ended
up minus an eye and some fingers.

I recall mixing potassium permanganate with something to make a paste that
exploded on contact once dry.

pot permang + drop of glycerine was fun too. Goes up by itself after a
minute or two.

Tim

--
geoff

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:48:12 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

These people are a strange breed. My daughter is an EMT2 with London
Ambulance - cant wait to get to work in the morning. Weird :-)

New blog you might like to look at
http://www.neenaw.co.uk/

(I liked the "Bad Samaritan" story)

david lang wrote:

I recall mixing potassium permanganate with something to make a paste that
exploded on contact once dry.

Potasium Permangenate in a liitle heap, make holes in middle as if
mixing cement, pour in glycerine, self-igniting volcano?

--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

DJC wrote:
david lang wrote:

I recall mixing potassium permanganate with something to make a paste
that exploded on contact once dry.


Potasium Permangenate in a liitle heap, make holes in middle as if
mixing cement, pour in glycerine, self-igniting volcano?


Yes indeed, but David's sounds more like ammonium iodide. As often
painted on school assembly hall floors before the Final Assembly in my
youth... Perhaps, like me, he did both?
Douglas de Lacey

In article , Andy Dingley
Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:10:44 writes

New blog you might like to look at http://www.neenaw.co.uk/

Couldn't stop reading! Thanks.
--
Les Desser
(The Reply-to address IS valid)