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#1
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
Advice sought, and opinions - especially good/bad experiences from
doing something similar. Contemplating moving/replacing HWC and possibly chimney/bricked up fireplace... 1950s 3-bed semi. Back bedroom has hideous fitted wardrobe (straight across one wall). Inside wardrobe is hot water cylinder, placed against side of chimney/bricked up fire place, thus... |------------| |--------| | pipes .-. | Chimney | | | (HWC) ------------ | | `-` | |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | ". . ." marks front of hideous fitted wardrobe, which has to go! Left hand wall is external. Rear wall is next door. Right hand wall is middle of house (supporting). HMC is just copper - no insulation, even though it was installed 2.5 years ago (just before we moved in, after we'd agreed to buy, so probably very cheap job). Can't afford, and don't want, to replace wardrobe with something similar but nice, so: 1. what should I do with the hot water cylinder, and 2. what, if anything, should I do with the chimney / bricked up fire place? (Whatever the choice is, there is some work to do because the ceiling is only artexed (yuk, but necessary unless its re-plastered completely) up to the front of the wardrobe, while "within" the wardrobe the walls are gloss paint on half ripped off wallpaper on bad plaster, badly smashed off skirting board etc). I could "just" box in the HWC where it is, put a door on the front, shelves to the side in front of the pipes, and box over the pipe which (annoyingly) travels 10cm above floor boards from the left of the cylinder level with the front of it! Or I could move the HWC to the left (adjacent to outside wall), putting all the pipes within a new cupboard, leaving little free space between the new airing cupboard and the chimney for some shelves. Lots of plumbing (in winter) but doesn't seem to gain me that much. Or I could move the HWC into the loft, have no airing cupboard but a little more space in the back bedroom. Lots more work. If the HWC does go in the loft, do I "just" raise the existing cold talk and put the existing HWC below it (loft plenty tall enough - very cold though - probably box it all in with lots of insulation), or do I replace the current HWC with something more modern? Even (gasp) a different system. Cost is putting me off, plus the fact that we know a standard vented HWC works well for us, even though the heating system is 20+ years old. Then there's the chimney/fireplace. It would be nice to have a square room. The gas fire in the room below has been disconnected because we don't use it and the room now has door across so no suitable vent to that part. However, removing chimney in the back bedroom (not in room below, because don't want to redecorate there) sounds like a big messy job - is it worth it? Any advice, experience, opinions welcome. Have ripped out most of the hideous fitted wardrobe hoping for inspiration, but none forthcoming! Cheers, David. |
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#2
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
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#3
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
wrote in message oups.com... Advice sought, and opinions - especially good/bad experiences from doing something similar. Contemplating moving/replacing HWC and possibly chimney/bricked up fireplace... 1950s 3-bed semi. Back bedroom has hideous fitted wardrobe (straight across one wall). Inside wardrobe is hot water cylinder, placed against side of chimney/bricked up fire place, thus... |------------| |--------| | pipes .-. | Chimney | | | (HWC) ------------ | | `-` | |. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | ". . ." marks front of hideous fitted wardrobe, which has to go! Left hand wall is external. Rear wall is next door. Right hand wall is middle of house (supporting). HMC is just copper - no insulation, even though it was installed 2.5 years ago (just before we moved in, after we'd agreed to buy, so probably very cheap job). Can't afford, and don't want, to replace wardrobe with something similar but nice, so: 1. what should I do with the hot water cylinder, and 2. what, if anything, should I do with the chimney / bricked up fire place? (Whatever the choice is, there is some work to do because the ceiling is only artexed (yuk, but necessary unless its re-plastered completely) up to the front of the wardrobe, while "within" the wardrobe the walls are gloss paint on half ripped off wallpaper on bad plaster, badly smashed off skirting board etc). I could "just" box in the HWC where it is, put a door on the front, shelves to the side in front of the pipes, and box over the pipe which (annoyingly) travels 10cm above floor boards from the left of the cylinder level with the front of it! Or I could move the HWC to the left (adjacent to outside wall), putting all the pipes within a new cupboard, leaving little free space between the new airing cupboard and the chimney for some shelves. Lots of plumbing (in winter) but doesn't seem to gain me that much. Or I could move the HWC into the loft, have no airing cupboard but a little more space in the back bedroom. Lots more work. If the HWC does go in the loft, do I "just" raise the existing cold talk and put the existing HWC below it (loft plenty tall enough - very cold though - probably box it all in with lots of insulation), or do I replace the current HWC with something more modern? Even (gasp) a different system. Cost is putting me off, plus the fact that we know a standard vented HWC works well for us, even though the heating system is 20+ years old. Then there's the chimney/fireplace. It would be nice to have a square room. The gas fire in the room below has been disconnected because we don't use it and the room now has door across so no suitable vent to that part. However, removing chimney in the back bedroom (not in room below, because don't want to redecorate there) sounds like a big messy job - is it worth it? Any advice, experience, opinions welcome. Have ripped out most of the hideous fitted wardrobe hoping for inspiration, but none forthcoming! David, consider: a) A new high flow combi such as an Alpha CD50. b) A combination tank (Fortic) which has the hot cylinder and cold tank all in one and put in the loft. The combi can also go in the loft. |
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#4
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
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#5
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote: David, consider: a) A new high flow combi such as an Alpha CD50. How predictable. From one where cost isn't a consideration. -- *Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#6
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile flatulence wrote in message ... In article ews.net, Doctor Drivel wrote: David, consider: a) A new high flow combi such as an Alpha CD50. How ** snip senility ** |
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#7
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ews.net, Doctor Drivel wrote: David, consider: a) A new high flow combi such as an Alpha CD50. How predictable. From one where cost isn't a consideration. Cost is certainly a consideration here! I'm thinking of moving the existing cylinder into the loft. However, apart from the existing cylinder being of unknown quality and uninsulated (though it would be easy enough to add bags of insulation and a makeshift box for it in the loft), it make be more work to move it. Buying a new cylinder, putting it in the loft, getting all the pipe work in place, and _then_ just joining a few pipes on "D-day" sounds easier (and less likely to leave us without heating for days if it all goes wrong) than having to move the existing cylinder. I've only got to drop it or split it on that day, and we're stuffed. Without heating. In December! The loft hatch is 63cm square, though to use all of that the built in step ladder would have to be removed (easy). Unfortunately, the roof line and supports would prevent me just lifting anything like a 60cm cylinder straight up, so I'll have to try with a cardbox box to see what will fit at an angle. Or use measurements and geometry. How would I "distribute" the load. I've read that people try to distribute the load over as many rafters as possible, but our ceiling are (were) terrible, suggesting the rafters have little strength, so I'd rather try and put all the load onto/over the supporting wall. Is this practical? Cheers, David. |
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#8
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
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#9
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
Richard Conway wrote:
wrote: However, apart from the existing cylinder being of unknown quality and uninsulated (though it would be easy enough to add bags of insulation and a makeshift box for it in the loft), it make be more work to move it. Buying a new cylinder, putting it in the loft, getting all the pipe work in place, and _then_ just joining a few pipes on "D-day" sounds easier (and less likely to leave us without heating for days if it all goes wrong) than having to move the existing cylinder. I've only got to drop it or split it on that day, and we're stuffed. Without heating. In December! Not a bad plan - you could get the immersion up and running and do the hot water changeover in advance, meaning you just have to change the heating plumbing over on "D-day". My Wife suggested I should ask a plumber how much he would charge to do the job, since it might be cheaper than the time I would spend doing it myself (she's an optimist!). He said simply that he wouldn't recommend it (though when pressed, is coming to look at the job more closely). He suggested a combi (until I said we had two bathrooms), or an unvented system with the tank elsewhere entirely (garage?). He also said there'd been a case where a faulty immersion heater on a HWC in a loft had melted the cold storage tank, which burst and killed the people in the bedroom below. So now a plumber has said "putting everything in the loft is a BAD IDEA" my wife is dead against it. A new system isn't totally out of the question - the current boiler is working but 25 years old. However, we'd intended to keep it until it died, and I hoped to keep a "standard" indirect gravity fed system (but in the loft) because it's a known quantity and can be DIYed if necessary. btw, I've searched, but not found a good unvented vs heat store thread. Any advice? Cheers, David. |
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#10
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
wrote in message oups.com... Richard Conway wrote: wrote: However, apart from the existing cylinder being of unknown quality and uninsulated (though it would be easy enough to add bags of insulation and a makeshift box for it in the loft), it make be more work to move it. Buying a new cylinder, putting it in the loft, getting all the pipe work in place, and _then_ just joining a few pipes on "D-day" sounds easier (and less likely to leave us without heating for days if it all goes wrong) than having to move the existing cylinder. I've only got to drop it or split it on that day, and we're stuffed. Without heating. In December! Not a bad plan - you could get the immersion up and running and do the hot water changeover in advance, meaning you just have to change the heating plumbing over on "D-day". My Wife suggested I should ask a plumber how much he would charge to do the job, since it might be cheaper than the time I would spend doing it myself (she's an optimist!). He said simply that he wouldn't recommend it (though when pressed, is coming to look at the job more closely). He suggested a combi (until I said we had two bathrooms), or an unvented system with the tank elsewhere entirely (garage?). He also said there'd been a case where a faulty immersion heater on a HWC in a loft had melted the cold storage tank, which burst and killed the people in the bedroom below. So now a plumber has said "putting everything in the loft is a BAD IDEA" my wife is dead against it. This "plumber" is an idiot. Avoid him. |
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#12
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On 30 Nov 2005 04:04:03 -0800, wrote: btw, I've searched, but not found a good unvented vs heat store thread. You could do either. A thermal store can be DIYed and the whole thing could go in the loft. These have a heat exchanger through which the cold mains water runs to be heated. The cylinder, which acts as the store, has an integrated header tank and the water in that is not under pressure. When you use HW, there is a pump which circulates water from the store through the heat exchanger. The water in the cylinder can either be heated directly by the boiler and effectively be associated with the primary circuit with the CH if it is all open vented, or you can have a coil in the cylinder and make that associated with the CH circuit and have that sealed - i.e. you then have three sets of water - the boiler/CH/cylinder coil; the cylinder store water and finally the mains water being heated. These arrangements get around the professional installation restrictions imposed by the Buillding Regulations, because there is not a large volume of water under pressure. An unvented cylinder does have to be installed professionally according to the Buillding Regulations. Advantages of Heat-Banks (form of thermal store) - Instant high pressure hot water - When the store has reached temperature water is delivered instantly at the taps. - High mains water pressures - at up to 10 bar, compared to 3.5 bar with unvented cylinders. - Very high water flow-rate - The high-end heat-banks have a flow-rate up to 45 litres/min. - Long efficient boiler burn - Reduces boiler on-off cycling increasing efficiency, although inefficient boiler cycling is no longer a major problem with boilers with forced flues. - Maintains optimum boiler temperature range - using a blending valve the flow/return of the boiler can be kept to opimum mainatinaing greater effciencies. The boiler operates at optimum performance. - May combine the output of the stored water and the boiler - Cylinder may be smaller for a similar performance - smaller cylinders than unvented cylinders. - Cylinder at low pressure - Unlike an unvented cylinder it does not store water at high pressures. - Fast cylinder recovery rate - When the boiler is connected directly to the heat-bank, and not via an indirect coil, the recovery rate is rapid. Although in some cases a boiler may heat the heat-bank via an indirect coil, reducing the recovery rate. - Legionella bacteria virtually eliminated - The Legionella bacteria cannot survive in the high temperature sealed conditions of a heat-bank. - No scale build-up in heat-bank - Containing primary and not secondary fresh water, there is no scale build-up inside the heat-bank. - Cold water storage eliminated - No need for cold water storage tanks. - Solar heating storage - Water heated via solar panels may be stored in the heat-bank via a solar coil. - Easy maintenance - If an external plate heat exchanger requires cleaning or replacing it is a matter of draining down the heat-bank, or closing isolating vales, and unscrewing the plate heat-exchanger. In some rare instances plate heat-exchangers are fitted directly inside the heat-bank preventing on-site maintenance. - Easy to improve hot water flowrates - By simply adding additional plate heat-exchangers in parallel, hot water flow rates may be improved. Retrofit additions are possible if extra bathrooms or showers are installed. This is impossible with unvented cylinders. - Stored water vessel need not be cylindrical - As no internal coil is used for hot water heat transfer the stored water vessel may be any shape, as opposed to a thermal store which has to be cylindrical for maximum efficiency. This has advantages where space is limited. Disadvantages of Heat-Banks - The store needs be near fully temperature to supply baths - Before any hot water is drawn off, the store must be up to temperature. Many later versions use a blending valve on the return to the boiler to ensure only up to temperature water is pumped into the store by the boiler. This prevents agitation of the stored water, and aiding heat stratification within the store giving useful water at the top of the store within a short time. The water is heated only in one pass through the boiler. - May not take full advantage of a condensing boiler - Maintaining the stored water at 75C to 80C results in a generally high boiler return temperature. This will not take full advantage of a condensing boiler, which increases in efficiency with lower return temperatures. With the superior heat stratification of taller cylinders this problem will be reduced. Condensing boilers with a wide operational flow and return temperature differential are best suited to thermal stores and heat banks. Overall efficiency with condensing boilers is still very, very good. - Lower water temperatures with fast flow-rates - As with Combi boilers, fast flow-rates through the plate heat-exchanger results in lower water temperatures. This is not so pronounced with heat-banks as with thermal-stores. This also applies to combi's. With a heat bank, larger or extra plate heat exchangers can be fitted to increase flow rates. Sized up properly this is not an issue in operation. - Needs more inhibior - A minor added cost. Advantages mainly to heat banks. |
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#13
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
Andy Hall wrote:
[snip] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3035606.stm So while the story is true, it is completely irrelevant to what you would like to do. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the credibility of the plumber. Oh pants. We're on our second plumber already. Our previous "plumber" charged a small fortune for small jobs, but (amazingly! ;-) ) was always available at short notice for emergencies! After £250 for a new rad which he hung at an angle, we said never again. This new plumber came recommended, doesn't even have to advertise locally, and is always very busy - about 1/3rd the cost of the previous one too, so I was quite pleased to find him. Until now! Maybe he doesn't fancy lifting a tank into the loft. Or maybe he was backing up his story that it'll be difficult to support the cold tank properly in the loft, and giving this disaster as the worst thing that can happen. Anyway, thanks for the link to the story - I've printed it out to show my wife that we're being sold a false scare story here. Thanks for all the information. I think we'll look again at the DIY option, though I'll probably leave it until warmer weather arrives. In the meantime I can still check out the mains pressure to see what our options are. Cheers, David. |
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#14
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: Half truth. Only one was killed. What actually happened was not a faulty tank, but a faulty immersion heater in an entirely standard cylinder and tank arrangement. The water boiled and was delivered up into the roof tank which then eventually distorted/broke over the people in the bedroom below. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3035606.stm Which if you read carefully shows the tank wasn't properly supported - probably just resting on joists, and the thermostat wasn't BS marked. They'd also heard the water boiling before but done nothing about it - which seems madness given they'd got children. -- *If I worked as much as others, I would do as little as they * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#15
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
In article . com,
wrote: Or maybe he was backing up his story that it'll be difficult to support the cold tank properly in the loft, It's only a question of boarding underneath it with something other than chipboard in most cases. -- *Income tax service - We‘ve got what it takes to take what you've got. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#16
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile flatulence wrote in message ... In article , Andy Hall wrote: Half truth. Only one was killed. What actually happened was not a faulty tank, but a faulty immersion heater in an entirely standard cylinder and tank arrangement. The water boiled and was delivered up into the roof tank which then eventually distorted/broke over the people in the bedroom below. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3035606.stm Which if you read carefully shows the tank wasn't properly supported - probably just resting on joists, and the thermostat wasn't BS marked. They'd also heard the water boiling before but done nothing about it - which seems madness given they'd got children. Almost as mad as not servicing a boiler for 12 years. |
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#17
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Moving hot water cylinder, maybe into loft, maybe removing chimney
wrote:
Richard Conway wrote: wrote: However, apart from the existing cylinder being of unknown quality and uninsulated (though it would be easy enough to add bags of insulation and a makeshift box for it in the loft), it make be more work to move it. Buying a new cylinder, putting it in the loft, getting all the pipe work in place, and _then_ just joining a few pipes on "D-day" sounds easier (and less likely to leave us without heating for days if it all goes wrong) than having to move the existing cylinder. I've only got to drop it or split it on that day, and we're stuffed. Without heating. In December! Not a bad plan - you could get the immersion up and running and do the hot water changeover in advance, meaning you just have to change the heating plumbing over on "D-day". My Wife suggested I should ask a plumber how much he would charge to do the job, since it might be cheaper than the time I would spend doing it myself (she's an optimist!). He said simply that he wouldn't recommend it (though when pressed, is coming to look at the job more closely). He suggested a combi (until I said we had two bathrooms), I thought you already had a working boiler or an unvented system with the tank elsewhere entirely (garage?). why would you pay him money to convert your system to a less reliable unvented one? He also said there'd been a case where a faulty immersion heater on a HWC in a loft had melted the cold storage tank, which burst and killed the people in the bedroom below. So now a plumber has said "putting everything in the loft is a BAD IDEA" my wife is dead against it. people are too easily swayed by bs. A new system isn't totally out of the question - the current boiler is working but 25 years old. However, we'd intended to keep it until it died, that would seem logical! All you need is to move the tank (probably replacing it). Worst case you may need to add a pump as well, making the HW pumped. NT |
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