On 4 Nov 2005 08:49:10 -0800, andy hall wrote:


I believe such a division would be socially divisive and counter productive.

That's only if you think that a degree is in some way "superior" to
other forms of education. I don't. However, I do think that more
appropriateness in terms of outcome should be a factor and educational
funding applied appropriately as well rather than trying to create a
one-size-fits all situation which doesn't really serve anybody very
effectively.

Hear hear. Give me a bloke with an apperbnticeship in a thick sandwich
course at a poly over a half baked comp sci grad with a head stuffed full
of theoretical knbowledge he doesn't really understand, any day of the
week..Very few people need that stuff unless they are doing advanced chip
design. What the world needs are pepople who can tirn out workmanlike C++
code that is maintainable and bug free...;0-)

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:28:11 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell wrote:

In article ,
Derek Geldard wrote:
I asked my son who did "science" GCSE:

What is the first element in the periodic table?

Answer: You are not required to know that, they give you a periodic
table in the exam.

He passed.

Being able to remember HHeLiBeBCNOF says nothing about your ability to
understand science, but not committing it to memory - just in case you're ever
without a printed periodic table - says something about your attitude to
science.


Its not that it should be committed to memory - I can't remember past the
first two, but its just that SURELY you have doen enough of it to remember
which one has an atomivc number of one?

Like 'what is the lightest element? Anyone could answer that, and if the
inderstanding is there, that that ipos facto makes it no 1 in the table,
there is the answer.

The fact that they probably DID know which was the lightest element, but
DID NOT make the connection to the first element in the table, is the
appalling conclusion..


Lirek my niece being able to tell me fairl quockly what 4x4 was, but not 4
squared...
I'd add a viva voce element to all exams to search out real understanding. ;-)

Then only 3% would pass.

Besides, where would you find the examiners who understood?

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:25:29 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I did O and A levels in 1970 and 72 respectively and covered this type
of thing in third form. It's been a gradual decline, but faster in
the last 15 years.

I fundamentally disagree. Having compared the experiences that I and my
friends had, and my experience of schools today, I would say there has been
a fundamental shift in the professionalism and achievement in schools in the
last 20 years. Education today is vastly superior. There is plenty of
independent academic studies that show this, too.

Only last week, there was a study published of a comparison of English
papers submitted in 1992 and 2004. When studied, the 2004 papers not only
had better spelling, punctuation and verb use, but the meaning of the texts
were deeper and more intelligently presented.

I don't believe in nostalgia. Crime is down. Education is better. People
have their brains fundamentally wired to not believe the evidence of this,
unfortunately.

Some education is better.

What has happened is that the worst of te schools have gone, and the
educatiio standards of the bottom third of the population in both
intelligence and 'clarrs' has improved.

The standarsd of the next third is slightly improved to slighlty worse, and
the top third has been shafted.

It sounds like your education was in the bottom third, some time ago.

As far as spelling goes, and punctuation,very few people even now realise
the mistakes they are making, let alone how to correct them.




Christian.

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:44:33 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

FFS, the BCS is the best crime statistical information on the planet. Please
quote me a credible source that shows that crime has done anything other
than massively reduce in the last ten years. Actually don't bother. Because
no such credible source exists.

Christian.

IIRC it was you who complianed about te youngsters spitting at you in
shopping centers...sure shome mishtake..if they are all so well educated
and well adjusted and happy liitle citizens...

Reduction in crime has come about purely because since everyone knows the
police are stupid, clueless and couldn't give a **** about your stolen
handbag, there is no point in reporting being mugged at all.

Not reported = no crime committed as far as the statistics go...

And os the poolice will only actually ACCEPT a crime that they have some
chance of clearing up.

Otherwise it looks bad on their books dunnit?

Every body knows what is going on - everyone is working to not fix the
underlying problems, but to set and meet targets that look good in
govermental reports.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:35:26 +0000, Grunff wrote:

Chris Bacon wrote:

Ooops! Didn't realise you are so young... (were you a "mature
student" (or pupil)?)

No.


I'm not sure that is appropriate for "O" levels, or "GCSEs"

What, a basic understanding of what molecules are, and the forces which
hold them together? Certainly was part of my GCSE physics and Chemistry.


Mmm. And still part of bleeding edge quantum physics actually..perhaps you
had better tell them all at CERN, because it sounds like your basic
understanding is more than they have ;-)

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Lirek my niece being able to tell me fairl quockly what 4x4 was, but not 4
squared...

Obviously I wasn't her maths teacher! Knowledge and automatic understanding of
multiplication tables, square, cube, prime, and triangular numbers, the
periodic table, natural selection, binary arithmetic, logic, safe use of saws,
planes, drills, cooking equipment and how to sketch in isometric projection,
design and make book covers, and produce a threaded hole in a block of metal
are all essential skills for everyone. And yes I've taught them all.
I would have taught her the mathematical language that was needed but don't
assume that because a kid doesn't understand the language that you know that
they don't understand the concept. They may well recognise specialist language
that you don't understand!

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

John Cartmell wrote:

Have you tried asking Primary School teachers?

I don't need to after over 50 years experience.

Now try explaining how parents
do their kids spelling learning homework.

In this case they probably only listen and correct(teach). As your
reply implies, some children/parents do it others don't. In many other
cases the parents will do the homework in order to raise the apparent
achievement level of the child for parental status reasons. I am not
opposed to parental effort, particularly on home reading, but homework
for primary children should be minimal and teaching should be imaginative.

All my wife's class (Y2 inner city
Manchester) do their homework. Some better than others of course.

What is the average/max/min reading age compared to chronological age
for the children in this class at the year end(last year of course)?
ie child age 6.5yrs, reading age 7yrs using a standard reading test.
Because that gives you an international measure.

But your
defeatist assumptions are wrong.

Wait 10 years and see! If the teachers are left free to teach and not
tick boxes, then there might be a chance, but the experience in the US,
which uses the same system shows that it produces a two tier society,
with the richer areas getting good results and the poorer areas not.
Some local primary schools are now getting worse literacy results than
they were 10 years ago. Others may have improved, but not substantially.
Remember the Ofsted adverts to become a school inspector "No previous
experience required"!

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Christian McArdle wrote:

I believe such a division would be socially divisive and counter
productive.

I don't. I think a bit of social division is a very good thing.

The narrow minded Little Middle England mentality again. the one that ruined
this country. Some people just sick.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 4 Nov 2005 08:49:10 -0800, andy hall wrote:


I believe such a division would be socially divisive and counter
productive.

That's only if you think that a degree is in some way "superior" to
other forms of education. I don't. However, I do think that more
appropriateness in terms of outcome should be a factor and educational
funding applied appropriately as well rather than trying to create a
one-size-fits all situation which doesn't really serve anybody very
effectively.

Hear hear. Give me a bloke with an apperbnticeship in a thick sandwich
course at a poly

Polys never did apprenticeship courses, that was tech colleges. Polys were
unis with a technical bias, issuing degrees. Only a handful of them left.

over a half baked comp

Comps don't issue degrees.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:49:04 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:


You wish to see vocational training have greater status and reach, and
yet
wish to demean any vocational achievement by insisting on a second tier
designation for it?

No. I wish to see that vocational training get the status it deserves,

Noble words. Vocational never will because of the class system. You know
that because you went to snotty uni.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:49:03 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

I think you are right when you say that degree standards are not
monitored although it seems that that is not what you meant to say.

It certainly used to be the case that what set a university degree apart
from those at lesser establishments was the fact that a university had
total control over the standard of its degree courses.

Not true. Whilst the university sets it's own standards there is an external
assessor to each course.

What gets assessed? By whom?

"Statement on the resignation of John Randall, Chief Executive of the
Quality Assurance Agency"

Why do you suppose he was resigned? Could it be his imposition of
external auditing of standards was not appreciated by the HE industry?

LOL.

http://www.hefce.ac.uk/news/hefce/2001/qaa.htm

Extract Follows.

"After a complete cycle of subject reviews, it is now proposed that in
future greater weight should be placed on institution-wide reviews.
The aim is to give students, their advisers and employers up-to-date
validated information, while ensuring that universities and colleges
have rigorous internal mechanisms in place to promote quality and
standards". Extract ends

And we all know what that means...

Yep, that's it. No external, independant, auditing of standards.

************************************************** **************************

BTW.

How do you account for the degrees in

Pizza-Ology ( 4 year Honours )

Geography with dance

Leisure facilities management.

USW, USW. USW.

??

And more recently "Golf".

DG

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
What is the average/max/min reading age compared to chronological age
for the children in this class at the year end(last year of course)?
ie child age 6.5yrs, reading age 7yrs using a standard reading test.
Because that gives you an international measure.

Good. I do know exactly but I'm not sure that's public information. It's
certainly above average and well above the average for similar schools.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Wait 10 years and see! If the teachers are left free to teach and not
tick boxes, then there might be a chance, but the experience in the US,
which uses the same system shows that it produces a two tier society,
with the richer areas getting good results and the poorer areas not.
Some local primary schools are now getting worse literacy results than
they were 10 years ago. Others may have improved, but not substantially.
Remember the Ofsted adverts to become a school inspector "No previous
experience required"!

I don't think we're disagreeing. When a Y2 class teacher hears all her (30)
class read twice a week - and some daily (in addition to group reading of
course) then you might expect results to be OK. That's not connected to the NC
of course. But then it's not necessarily linked to parental income either as
my example could show.

And yes - we more than agree about Ofsted. I've had good experience of good
inspectors - but they have now left. And the whole idea of inspection is summe
up with the question:
"What's the difference between a plastic surgeon and an Ofsted Inspector?"
"One tucks up features."

I'm coping with pre-inspection illness in a more than capable teacher. ;-((

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Polys never did apprenticeship courses, that was tech colleges. Polys were
unis with a technical bias, issuing degrees.

dIMM has got it wrong again.

Regards
Capitol

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Christian McArdle wrote:


I believe such a division would be socially divisive and counter

productive.

I don't. I think a bit of social division is a very good thing.


The narrow minded Little Middle England mentality again. the one that ruined
this country. Some people just sick.

But, can generally spell and parse a sentence correctly, unlike yourself!

LOL
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:

Polys never did apprenticeship courses, that was tech colleges. Polys
were
unis with a technical bias, issuing degrees.

dIMM has got it wrong again.

Maxie, get inhere. This tosser is taking the name of your loved one in vain.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Christian McArdle wrote:


I believe such a division would be socially divisive and counter

productive.

I don't. I think a bit of social division is a very good thing.


The narrow minded Little Middle England mentality again. the one that
ruined
this country. Some people just sick.

But, can generally

...be sick.

(Steve Firth) wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:

As one who did sciences at O and A level AND has teenaged children I
can assure you that standards of examination are, if anything, higher
than in my day.

Bwhahahahahahahahahah

Oh, you were serious.

Umm no, you're completely and utterly wrong. Speaking as someone who did
sciences at '0' and 'A' level and who has a tennager in the family. The
"sceince" being taught today in schools is trivial ******** and even the
'A' level doesn't quite make it to the standards of any of the JMB 'O'
levels from the 1970s.

and there lies the reason. JMB O and A levels were always way above
the others.


--

So you dont think they work then ?

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

At one time A Levels were marked so that (approximately) the same
percentages
received the same grades each year. If you were unfortunate to be in a
'bright' year your potential A could drop to a C or D and a middling student
might only get an O.

That is an argument I just don't buy. Bright years occur at local level
but the bigger the sample the less likelihood of any significant
variation. At national level any variation in ability would be a good
deal less than the variations in the process that is now supposed to
keep the standard the same year by year.

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

What amazes me is that when someone sneers degree from partially uni, as
being not worth anything. All degrees are to a minimum externally
unmonitored standard.

I think you are right when you say that degree standards are not
monitored although it seems that that is not what you meant to say.

It certainly used to be the case that what set a university degree apart
from those at lesser establishments was the fact that a university had
total control over the standard of its degree courses.

Not true. Whilst the university sets it's own standards there is an external
assessor to each course.

You might have thought that but I stand by my final paragraph. I trust
that someone will come up with the date external assessors were first
introduced for university degree courses if you can't or won't.

--
Roger Chapman

The message ws.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Hear hear. Give me a bloke with an apperbnticeship in a thick sandwich
course at a poly

Polys never did apprenticeship courses, that was tech colleges. Polys were
unis with a technical bias, issuing degrees. Only a handful of them left.

Drivel is at it again with his useless misinformation. Polys were not
universities and apprenticeships were the province of employers, not
educational establishments. For Drivels information thick sandwich
courses comprised an initial year with the employer, 3 years taking a
degree and a final year with the employer. In contrast thin sandwich
courses were 6 semesters of alternate employer/college (HND) followed by
2 years in which either further education or work might be involved.

over a half baked comp

Comps don't issue degrees.

You really do lack even basic comprehension Dribble. The quote you
truncated to a meaningless degree is more fully "half baked comp sci
grad with a head stuffed full of theoretical knbowledge he doesn't
really understand". The subject in question is a 'computer science
graduate', not a possible degree issuing institution.

--
Roger Chapman

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message ws.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Hear hear. Give me a bloke with an apperbnticeship in a thick sandwich
course at a poly

Polys never did apprenticeship courses, that was tech colleges. Polys
were
unis with a technical bias, issuing degrees. Only a handful of them
left.

Drivel is at it again with his useless misinformation. Polys were not
universities

They issued uni equiv. degrees, which were more highly appreciated by many
employers as they were more real world based.

and apprenticeships were the province of employers, not
educational establishments.

Roger you are senile, the academic aspect was provided for by the techs. C&G
and all that.

snip far to much Rogerness

The message
from Roger contains these words:

In contrast thin sandwich
courses were 6 semesters of alternate employer/college (HND)* followed by
2 years in which either further education or work might be involved.

*Damn, that should have said (HND or degree).

--
Roger Chapman

"powerstation" wrote:

So you dont think they work then ?

think don't works what ?

43.2 usually 18 down three weeks ago kipper red mdf
--

John Cartmell wrote:

I don't think we're disagreeing. When a Y2 class teacher hears all her (30)
class read twice a week - and some daily,

IME and that of many other experienced teachers, group reading is
useless, it simply allows some children to shine and others to feel
inadequate and doesn't work. All children of this age need to read once
a day on a 1 to 1 teacher basis if you want very good results. Ideally
backed up by parental reading every day. Yes, It kills the teacher!

I agree that 30 is towards the top limit for y2 classes, which probably
should only be 25. However in the past the numbers have been up to 45!,
without the results being much worse than today.


But then it's not necessarily linked to parental income either as
my example could show.

I'm only quoting the actual US results. Regimented NC teaching doesn't
work reliably and produces much worse results in poor areas.

Published test results are also pretty useless, when trying to see if
a school will suit an individual child.

And yes - we more than agree about Ofsted. I've had good experience of good
inspectors - but they have now left. And the whole idea of inspection is summe
up with the question:
"What's the difference between a plastic surgeon and an Ofsted Inspector?"
"One tucks up features."

Very good, I hadn't heard that before.

I'm coping with pre-inspection illness in a more than capable teacher. ;-((


That's normal! It's bound to happen when politicians/civil servants
think they know better than the practitioner, how to teach. It also
happens in the NHS and the police service. Unfortunately the good people
tend to leave for private industry where there is less politics. As I
have always insisted, appraisals( inspection reports) are not worth the
hot air they are printed on! Which is one of the reasons why I became
and remained, self employed, long ago.

Regards
Capitol

In article ,
Roger wrote:
Polys never did apprenticeship courses, that was tech colleges. Polys were
unis with a technical bias, issuing degrees. Only a handful of them left.

Drivel is at it again with his useless misinformation. Polys were not
universities and apprenticeships were the province of employers, not
educational establishments.

Polys did issue university degrees of their own though it had to be centrally
moderated. They were, in general, biased towards a technical subjects as they
were frequently based on Tech. Colleges. Tech. Colleges did /do apprenticeship
courses in co-operation with local employers - mainly on day release basis.
"Doctor Drivel" did make some errors in his comment - but you appear to have
missed them all! ;-)

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

Polys did issue university degrees of their own though it had to be
centrally
moderated. They were, in general, biased towards a technical subjects
as they
were frequently based on Tech. Colleges. Tech. Colleges did /do
apprenticeship
courses in co-operation with local employers - mainly on day release basis.

That didn't make a poly into a university. That was a sleight of hand
that came later. And it is stretching a point (well past breaking point)
to call their degrees 'university degrees' unless you were thinking of
LU external degrees.

Apprenticeships are (or should that be were given the lack of
apprenticeships these days) with employers. In the case of the
qualifications student apprentices took it would not have been a college
requirement that the student was an apprentice and I doubt whether
dribbles C & G class would have been restricted to pukka apprentices
either.

Most current universities have their origins in lower ranked
organisations and went through several stages. Different institutions
gained Polytechnic status at different times and likewise moved on to
University status in different waves. I can't now recall whether the
progression was college of technology, polytechnic, college of advanced
technology, or whether the later 2 were alternatives but they all
offered degrees some considerable time before they made it to university
status. My dictionary (Collins 1986) says the CATs made it to university
status in the 1960s but offers no hint about the polys upgraded status
and doesn't deign to mention the johnnies come lately of the university
world, the colleges of technology.

"Doctor Drivel" did make some errors in his comment - but you appear to have
missed them all! ;-)

Drivel is a moron who rarely gets anything right except by accident. I
agree he certainly made some errors but as you claim I missed them all
perhaps you would be good enough to enumerate *all* of them.

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

At one time A Levels were marked so that (approximately) the same
percentages received the same grades each year. If you were unfortunate
to be in a 'bright' year your potential A could drop to a C or D and a
middling student might only get an O.

That is an argument I just don't buy. Bright years occur at local
level but
the bigger the sample the less likelihood of any significant variation. At
national level any variation in ability would be a good deal less than the
variations in the process that is now supposed to keep the standard the
same year by year.

It wasn't national. Some examination boards were quite small and there were
some significant variations year on year.

How about some actual figures to back up your prejudices?

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

It certainly used to be the case that what set a university degree
apart from those at lesser establishments was the fact that a
university had total control over the standard of its degree courses.

Not true. Whilst the university sets it's own standards there is an
external assessor to each course.

You might have thought that but I stand by my final paragraph. I
trust that
someone will come up with the date external assessors were first
introduced
for university degree courses if you can't or won't.

I have no idea. They were around when I first took an interest in
universities
in the 1960s.

In which case why did you claim that I was lying when you didn't really
have a clue?
--
Roger Chapman

In article ,
Roger wrote:
The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

It certainly used to be the case that what set a university degree
apart from those at lesser establishments was the fact that a
university had total control over the standard of its degree courses.

Not true. Whilst the university sets it's own standards there is an
external assessor to each course.

You might have thought that but I stand by my final paragraph. I
trust that
someone will come up with the date external assessors were first
introduced
for university degree courses if you can't or won't.

I have no idea. They were around when I first took an interest in
universities
in the 1960s.

In which case why did you claim that I was lying when you didn't really
have a clue?

I had no idea that you were discussing deep history rather than simply
recollected past. I'm sorry if that was the case.

NB I did *not* go so far as to suggest that you were lying. That is an
unwarranted claim.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article , Roger
wrote:
The message from John Cartmell
contains these words:

Polys did issue university degrees of their own though it had to be
centrally moderated. They were, in general, biased towards a technical
subjects as they were frequently based on Tech. Colleges. Tech. Colleges
did /do apprenticeship courses in co-operation with local employers -
mainly on day release basis.

That didn't make a poly into a university. That was a sleight of hand that
came later. And it is stretching a point (well past breaking point) to call
their degrees 'university degrees' unless you were thinking of LU external
degrees.

Or CNAA degrees which were *not* external degrees but were devised by the
Polys themselves and assessed by them just like universities - except that
each course had to be rigrously evaluated externally before being offered to
the students.

Apprenticeships are (or should that be were given the lack of
apprenticeships these days) with employers. In the case of the
qualifications student apprentices took it would not have been a college
requirement that the student was an apprentice.

Not true to my recollection. Certainly not true in practice even if a
non-apprentice 8could have sneaked in on the course. This may have changed
over time/college.

[Snip]

My dictionary (Collins 1986) says the CATs made it to university status in
the 1960s but offers no hint about the polys upgraded status

The massive Poly - University switch was a sleight of hand by the last Tory
government so they could claim to have made more Universities.

Drivel is a moron who rarely gets anything right except by accident. I
agree he certainly made some errors but as you claim I missed them all
perhaps you would be good enough to enumerate *all* of them.

They were minor.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Roger wrote:


Most current universities have their origins in lower ranked
organisations and went through several stages. Different institutions
gained Polytechnic status at different times and likewise moved on to
University status in different waves. I can't now recall whether the
progression was college of technology, polytechnic, college of advanced
technology, or whether the later 2 were alternatives but they all
offered degrees some considerable time before they made it to university
status. My dictionary (Collins 1986) says the CATs made it to university
status in the 1960s but offers no hint about the polys upgraded status
and doesn't deign to mention the johnnies come lately of the university
world, the colleges of technology.

Until 1830 there were only two universities in England - (and as far as
international prestige and brad recognition goes that probably still true).

University College and Kings College were established in London by 1830.
Other institutions, Manchester, Birmingham etc developed from
mechanics institutes in the mid 19th century; they were not fully and
formally accorded university status until the Education Acts around
1904. The Colleges of Advanced Technology were established in the 1950s,
as yet another attempt to establish technical education as being of
equal esteem with academic universities. But the Robbins report of 1962
led to the creation of New Universities on the basis of catering for
demand limited only by the ability to pass the requisite A' levels.
Results lots of Arts degrees and the existing and proposed CATs becoming
universities. Technical Colleges (unlike Universities funded and
controlled by local authorities) merged, became polytechnics,and offered
degrees validated by CNAA from ~1970. For a time they did offer
something alternative and more vocational than university, in fact
something like the CATs were intended to be. But then the desire for
status and being free from LA control led to them becoming universities.
Leaving the sub-degree level to Colleges of Further Education which now
seem to be called University Colleges.



--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

Polys did issue university degrees of their own though it had to be
centrally moderated. They were, in general, biased towards a technical
subjects as they were frequently based on Tech. Colleges. Tech. Colleges
did /do apprenticeship courses in co-operation with local employers -
mainly on day release basis.

That didn't make a poly into a university. That was a sleight of hand that
came later. And it is stretching a point (well past breaking point)
to call
their degrees 'university degrees' unless you were thinking of LU external
degrees.

Or CNAA degrees which were *not* external degrees but were devised by the
Polys themselves and assessed by them just like universities - except that
each course had to be rigrously evaluated externally before being offered to
the students.

CNAA degrees were not exclusive to polys.

Apprenticeships are (or should that be were given the lack of
apprenticeships these days) with employers. In the case of the
qualifications student apprentices took it would not have been a college
requirement that the student was an apprentice.

Not true to my recollection. Certainly not true in practice even if a
non-apprentice 8could have sneaked in on the course. This may have changed
over time/college.

You are probably right about the practice but the requirements for a HND
(the original scheme, not the current imposter wearing the same badge)
did not apparently even include any work experience let alone the
student being an apprentice. (Conditions of award are printed on the
back of the certificate).

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from DJC contains these words:

Technical Colleges (unlike Universities funded and
controlled by local authorities) merged, became polytechnics,and offered
degrees validated by CNAA from ~1970.

I can only speak from my own experience but the college I attended as a
student apprentice (Staffordshire College of Technology) introduced CNAA
degrees (as a replacement for LU External degrees*) during the time I
was there, most probably during 1964 or 1965.

SCOT became a poly on its way to becoming part of a university but that
wasn't until a decade or more later.

*I wouldn't want to give the impression I am more learned than I am. I
do not have a LU external degree (reputedly the hardest way to obtain a
degree qualification in postwar Britain), only a HND and an elaborate
certificate (of absolutely no practical significance) telling me I had
been elected "an Associate of the Staffordshire College of Technology"
following a further years study. (That qualification was originally
going to be called a College Diploma in Mechanical Engineering - a CDM -
but then along came Cadburys with their advertising campaign handing out
CDMs to all and sundry and the college had to do a quick rethink).

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

In which case why did you claim that I was lying when you didn't really
have a clue?

I had no idea that you were discussing deep history rather than simply
recollected past. I'm sorry if that was the case.

But I am recollecting instances from my past and while it is always
possible that my informant was misinformed from what has been said so
far it is still possible that the external assessment of university
degrees is something that followed the introduction of the Council for
National Academic Awards (which is where my information dates from)
rather than being a historic relic from an earlier time.

NB I did *not* go so far as to suggest that you were lying. That is an
unwarranted claim.

The you should have been more careful with your language. You are quite
old enough to appreciate the distinction between not telling the truth
and making an incorrect statement.

--
Roger Chapman

IIRC it was you who complianed about te youngsters spitting at you in
shopping centers...sure shome mishtake..if they are all so well educated
and well adjusted and happy liitle citizens...

No. I've never been spat at by youngsters in shopping centres. I did get
mugged a few weeks back for the first time ever. However, that does not make
a crime wave. I prefer the BCS statistics to those compiled on the
experiences of a single person.

Reduction in crime has come about purely because since everyone knows the
police are stupid, clueless and couldn't give a **** about your stolen
handbag, there is no point in reporting being mugged at all.

Firstly, reported crime continues to rise in many areas, as the police
continue to record more crime and people continue to trust them more to do
so. Secondly, the BCS, partly for the reasons suggested, does not use
recorded crime figures at all and includes crimes that have not been
reported.

Thirdly when I did get mugged, I was amazed to find the police taking it
very seriously indeed. After an area search for an hour, they interviewed me
at home for about an hour or so, attempting to get all the details they
could. Then, a day or two later, a special street crime unit came to my
place of work and showed me lots of photographs, to glean a better
description or even identify suspects. They then told me that they were
linking it with several other robberies, as those descriptions matched.
Finally, I even got contacted by the victim support unit, who offered to
keep me in touch with the enquiry and offer counselling.

Not reported = no crime committed as far as the statistics go...

Absolutely wrong. You don't know what the British Crime Survey is, do you?

Christian.

In article ,
Roger wrote:
NB I did *not* go so far as to suggest that you were lying. That is an
unwarranted claim.

The you should have been more careful with your language.

I was. I said 'not true' rather than 'you are not telling the truth'. There is
a big difference. You assumed the second and I did not intend you to make that
assumption. An appropriate response from you to what I said and meant might
have been:
"I think it *is* true ..." OR "It *is* true ..." OR "Isn't it true ..."
"...for the periond prior to CNAA coming into force."

Sorry if I sounded antagonistic. That was *certainly* not the intention.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

The problem with all official statistics about crime is that they are
based
on "reported" crimes. since many people nowadays don'y bother to report
crimes anymore as they don't have a reasonable expectation that it will do
any good. So the statistics are fundamentally flawed

Absolutely wrong. The British Crime Survey does NOT and has NEVER relied
upon reported crime statistics. It includes crimes that would not be
reported to the police.

Christian.

In article ,
Roger wrote:
I wouldn't want to give the impression I am more learned than I am. I
do not have a LU external degree (reputedly the hardest way to obtain a
degree qualification in postwar Britain), only a HND

Do *not* put the word *only* in front of the letters "HND". It is out of
place. ;-)

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing