At the house my wife and I have just bought, we are considering knocking down an internal wall.

The joists 195 X 50 run from front to back and are 5.1 metres long. They are supported at 3.6 metres buy a stone wall and carry on for the remaining 1.5 metres. The room behind is so small it seems pointless!

I figure that once the wall is removed (neither the wall nor floor in the room above (4.9 metres) carry any wall) that the joists will need extra support! I do not want an unsightly catnic or steel on view below. I am however considering an Oak beam (200 X 150 span 3 metres) placed at ~2.5 metres, perpendicular to the joists, for support. I figure I could place and fix the Oak beam before I remove the wall, thus removing the need for props, or would I to hold the beam in place till the masonry had set?

I am also considering cutting into the existing joist and placing a 195 X 74 joist at a right angle to the joists and using hangers and nails to fix them. Would this be adequate at the ~ 2.5 metre mark? Would I need to bolt on pieces of timber (same size)? As I can't see how I can join the joists in both sides without precise cutting, and then there wouldn't be enough movement to fix the 195 X 74 into the wall or am I wrong?

If I take the second option I will need props, and the ceiling will move slightly, so I will probably have to renew it all! But then I will be left with a hole where the wall was anyway!

But there will not be an unsightly beam of any description on view below!

Does anyone have advice on how best to do this?
How to do it?
Has anyone done this before?
What method is best?

Thanks

Andy

Speak to your councill building inspector. Get him out to have a look, their usually a friendly bunch and will only to glad to help.

Sean

Cant really afford to pay the £600 they charge, that will pay for my new boiler!

Thanks

In article ,
says...

Sean Mc Wrote:
Speak to your councill building inspector. Get him out to have a look,
their usually a friendly bunch and will only to glad to help.

Sean

Cant really afford to pay the £600 they charge, that will pay for my
new boiler!

You'll need to submit a Building Notice application anyway, so you're
going to have to pay for it whether you ask their advice or not. If you
don't ask them for advice you'll have to convince them that the solution
you choose is adequate, and advice you get from a newsgroup won't really
satisfy that requirement. Are you sure they're going to charge £600? I
think the going rate around here is more like £300.

In message , andymason79
writes

At the house my wife and I have just bought, we are considering
knocking
down an internal wall.

The joists 195 X 50 run from front to back and are 5.1 metres long.
They are supported at 3.6 metres buy a stone wall and carry on for the
remaining 1.5 metres. The room behind is so small it seems pointless!

I figure that once the wall is removed (neither the wall nor floor in
the room above (4.9 metres) carry any wall) that the joists will need
extra support! I do not want an unsightly catnic or steel on view
below. I am however considering an Oak beam (200 X 150 span 3 metres)
placed at ~2.5 metres, perpendicular to the joists, for support. I
figure I could place and fix the Oak beam before I remove the wall,
thus removing the need for props, or would I to hold the beam in place
till the masonry had set?

I am also considering cutting into the existing joist and placing a 195
X 74 joist at a right angle to the joists and using hangers and nails
to
fix them. Would this be adequate at the ~ 2.5 metre mark? Would I need
to bolt on pieces of timber (same size)? As I can't see how I can join
the joists in both sides without precise cutting, and then there
wouldn't be enough movement to fix the 195 X 74 into the wall or am I
wrong?

If I take the second option I will need props, and the ceiling will
move slightly, so I will probably have to renew it all! But then I will
be left with a hole where the wall was anyway!

But there will not be an unsightly beam of any description on view
below!

Does anyone have advice on how best to do this?

Get a structural engineer in to make some suggestions, do the
calculations, and provide a drawing, (sketch probably).

If you dont get Building Control approval, you may have difficulty when
you come to sell, (priceless g).

--
Richard Faulkner

In my experience Building control are generally willing to give what
might be termed "pre-application advice" at no charge and generally if
you flatter them appropriately will suggest a solution that would
satisfy them. There are still potential problems with this in that they
are not structural engineers. It sounds to me like your suggestion with
the cross joist is not likely to be strong enough. From what you say of
the situation though losing the beam into the ceiling void doesn't
sound like a big problem. I just carried out some work where I removed
a load-bearing ground floor wall above which is the first floor
loading, a brick wall and a second floor, and still have a flat
ceiling. In my case I used 2 203mm universal beams welded together. The
joists were then propped and cut back and the beam set up between the
joists with the joists attached on steel hangers. You clearly need less
than this, but going from 3.6m to 5m is a big deal if you're a piece of
wood.

Ring the BCO up and see if he'll make an informal visit.

Fash

Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , andymason79
writes

At the house my wife and I have just bought, we are considering
knocking
down an internal wall.

The joists 195 X 50 run from front to back and are 5.1 metres long.
They are supported at 3.6 metres buy a stone wall and carry on for the
remaining 1.5 metres. The room behind is so small it seems pointless!

I figure that once the wall is removed (neither the wall nor floor in
the room above (4.9 metres) carry any wall) that the joists will need
extra support! I do not want an unsightly catnic or steel on view
below. I am however considering an Oak beam (200 X 150 span 3 metres)
placed at ~2.5 metres, perpendicular to the joists, for support. I
figure I could place and fix the Oak beam before I remove the wall,
thus removing the need for props, or would I to hold the beam in place
till the masonry had set?

I am also considering cutting into the existing joist and placing a 195
X 74 joist at a right angle to the joists and using hangers and nails
to
fix them. Would this be adequate at the ~ 2.5 metre mark? Would I need
to bolt on pieces of timber (same size)? As I can't see how I can join
the joists in both sides without precise cutting, and then there
wouldn't be enough movement to fix the 195 X 74 into the wall or am I
wrong?

If I take the second option I will need props, and the ceiling will
move slightly, so I will probably have to renew it all! But then I will
be left with a hole where the wall was anyway!

But there will not be an unsightly beam of any description on view
below!

Does anyone have advice on how best to do this?

Get a structural engineer in to make some suggestions, do the
calculations, and provide a drawing, (sketch probably).

If you dont get Building Control approval, you may have difficulty when
you come to sell, (priceless g).

--
Richard Faulkner

In my experience Building control are generally willing to give what
might be termed "pre-application advice" at no charge and generally if
you flatter them appropriately will suggest a solution that would
satisfy them. There are still potential problems with this in that they
are not structural engineers. It sounds to me like your suggestion with
the cross joist is not likely to be strong enough. From what you say of
the situation though losing the beam into the ceiling void doesn't
sound like a big problem. I just carried out some work where I removed
a load-bearing ground floor wall above which is the first floor
loading, a brick wall and a second floor, and still have a flat
ceiling. In my case I used 2 203mm universal beams welded together. The
joists were then propped and cut back and the beam set up between the
joists with the joists attached on steel hangers. You clearly need less
than this, but going from 3.6m to 5m is a big deal if you're a piece of
wood.

Ring the BCO up and see if he'll make an informal visit.

Fash

Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , andymason79
writes

At the house my wife and I have just bought, we are considering
knocking
down an internal wall.

The joists 195 X 50 run from front to back and are 5.1 metres long.
They are supported at 3.6 metres buy a stone wall and carry on for the
remaining 1.5 metres. The room behind is so small it seems pointless!

I figure that once the wall is removed (neither the wall nor floor in
the room above (4.9 metres) carry any wall) that the joists will need
extra support! I do not want an unsightly catnic or steel on view
below. I am however considering an Oak beam (200 X 150 span 3 metres)
placed at ~2.5 metres, perpendicular to the joists, for support. I
figure I could place and fix the Oak beam before I remove the wall,
thus removing the need for props, or would I to hold the beam in place
till the masonry had set?

I am also considering cutting into the existing joist and placing a 195
X 74 joist at a right angle to the joists and using hangers and nails
to
fix them. Would this be adequate at the ~ 2.5 metre mark? Would I need
to bolt on pieces of timber (same size)? As I can't see how I can join
the joists in both sides without precise cutting, and then there
wouldn't be enough movement to fix the 195 X 74 into the wall or am I
wrong?

If I take the second option I will need props, and the ceiling will
move slightly, so I will probably have to renew it all! But then I will
be left with a hole where the wall was anyway!

But there will not be an unsightly beam of any description on view
below!

Does anyone have advice on how best to do this?

Get a structural engineer in to make some suggestions, do the
calculations, and provide a drawing, (sketch probably).

If you dont get Building Control approval, you may have difficulty when
you come to sell, (priceless g).

--
Richard Faulkner

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
andymason79 wrote:

At the house my wife and I have just bought, we are considering
knocking down an internal wall.

The joists 195 X 50 run from front to back and are 5.1 metres long.
They are supported at 3.6 metres buy a stone wall and carry on for the
remaining 1.5 metres. The room behind is so small it seems pointless!

I figure that once the wall is removed (neither the wall nor floor in
the room above (4.9 metres) carry any wall) that the joists will need
extra support! I do not want an unsightly catnic or steel on view
below. I am however considering an Oak beam (200 X 150 span 3 metres)
placed at ~2.5 metres, perpendicular to the joists, for support. I
figure I could place and fix the Oak beam before I remove the wall,
thus removing the need for props, or would I to hold the beam in place
till the masonry had set?

I am also considering cutting into the existing joist and placing a
195 X 74 joist at a right angle to the joists and using hangers and
nails to fix them. Would this be adequate at the ~ 2.5 metre mark?
Would I need to bolt on pieces of timber (same size)? As I can't see
how I can join the joists in both sides without precise cutting, and
then there wouldn't be enough movement to fix the 195 X 74 into the
wall or am I wrong?

If I take the second option I will need props, and the ceiling will
move slightly, so I will probably have to renew it all! But then I
will be left with a hole where the wall was anyway!

But there will not be an unsightly beam of any description on view
below!

Does anyone have advice on how best to do this?
How to do it?
Has anyone done this before?
What method is best?

Thanks

Andy

I would echo what others have said about getting some free informal advice
from your local BCO.

One solution which *may* be feasible is to strengthen the existing joists by
bolting some steelwork to the sides of them - converting them into something
akin to flitch beams which can span the full 5 metres without additional
support. You'll need to take the ceiling down to do this - but you'll get a
better job, with no patched-up bit where the wall is, by making a new
continuous ceiling.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

This is a rough plan of what I am suggesting:


The internal wall is masonry!

Do you think that a 200 X 150 Oak beam placed below below the existing joints, in the same location as the (proposed double 192 X 74) would be any better?

Am I completely wrong in the assumption that placing a joist perpendicular to the existing joists and hanging them from and nailing them to it reduces the span to ~ 2.9 and 2.1 metres?

In message , andymason79
writes

Richard Faulkner Wrote:


Get a structural engineer in to make some suggestions, do the
calculations, and provide a drawing, (sketch probably).

If you dont get Building Control approval, you may have difficulty
when
you come to sell, (priceless g).

--
Richard Faulkner

This is a rough plan of what I am suggesting:


The internal wall is masonry!


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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|Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment....tachmentid=122 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


Invalid filename??

--
Richard Faulkner

Most Inspectors will pop around for an informal chat, as long as tea and biscuits are on offer
£600 how did you get sum?

Could you not use an I Beam clad in oak?

Sean

In message , andymason79
writes

Do you think that a 200 X 150 Oak beam placed below below the existing
joints, in the same location as the (proposed double 192 X 74) would be
any better?

Am I completely wrong in the assumption that placing a joist
perpendicular to the existing joists and hanging them from and nailing
them to it reduces the span to ~ 2.9 and 2.1 metres?


Andy,

You keep asking if your suggestions will be OK but, as nobody hear has
yet claimed to be a structural engineer, or Building Control officer,
"we" keep saying that you should get some advice.

Even if somebody were qualified, they would almost certainly say that
they could not advise without seeing the job.

In the nicest way - why are you resisting professional advice? If you
are in Manchester, the engineer I use will probably do what you need for
around £200 +/-. He will also advise on the Building Regs. process if
you want.

If you're not in Manchester, tell us where you are, and someone may be
able to recommend.

--
Richard Faulkner

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Sean Mc wrote:

andymason79 Wrote:
Cant really afford to pay the £600 they charge, that will pay for my
new boiler!

Thanks

Most Inspectors will pop around for an informal chat, as long as tea
and biscuits are on offer
£600 how did you get sum?

Could you not use an I Beam clad in oak?

Sean

Or an I Beam at the same level as the joists - with the joists cut into it?
You could then have a flat ceiling with nothing under it - but actually
installing the I beam may present a challenge or two! Did you consider my
earlier suggestion about flitch beams?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Tell me more about how these flitch beams work?

I am reluctant to pay for an engineer and building regulations, because for what they would cost I could do most of the floor in RSJ’s!

Does anyone know where you can get 'T' Beams, like I beams but easier to install?

In article , Andymason79 wrote:
Tell me more about how these flitch beams work?

http://www.sda.co.uk/info/sbw/flitch.htm for the maths

http://www.trada.co.uk/software/TED_Flitchbeam.htm has a picture

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
andymason79 wrote:

Set Square Wrote:

Sean

Or an I Beam at the same level as the joists - with the joists cut
into it?
You could then have a flat ceiling with nothing under it - but
actually
installing the I beam may present a challenge or two! Did you
consider my
earlier suggestion about flitch beams?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Tell me more about how these flitch beams work?
[/color]
See Tony Bryer's reply for the technical stuff.

A flitch beam is normally a thin steel beam sandwiched between two wooden
beams. What I had in mind in your case was to sandwich each existing wooden
beam between two steel beams by bolting steel to the sides - thus greatly
increasing the strength and bending stiffness.

Maybe Tony could comment on whether this is feasible?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article , Set Square wrote:
A flitch beam is normally a thin steel beam sandwiched between two wooden
beams. What I had in mind in your case was to sandwich each existing wooden
beam between two steel beams by bolting steel to the sides - thus greatly
increasing the strength and bending stiffness.

Maybe Tony could comment on whether this is feasible?

The problem with this is that a thin steel plate tends to buckle when bent.
In a conventional flitch beam - plate between two decent bits of timber, all
bolted together - this won't happen but when you put the plates on the
outside it is much more likely and would need to be carefully checked by an
engineer.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

I'd take out the wall and then see how springy the floor feels. It's
not going to collapse if the joists run through as you say. If too
springy then add a beam centrally or 2 smaller ones at 1/3rd span.

cheers

Jacob

Thank you,

A bit of common sense, The room the other side of the hall (lounge) has exactly the same size joists and they span 5 metres. That ceiling/floor has been like that for 124 years so with a beam in the centre of the other room it would not be a problem.

The irony is all I keep hearing is regulation this and that.

And any Victorian or 1920's/30's house was build so much better than any Bovis, Barratt, Meadgate or any of these S**T new homes with there 1001 rules.

What matters is pride in how the tradesmen’ do their job and the attitude now is B******s it in a fast as you can. Regulations are not always adhered to a lot of stuff gets covered up and is not done as required!

Ask yourself this would you want to buy a house built since 1950 when it is 120 years old?

A lot of rules are stupid, they now require 300 mm of insulation in lofts, energy efficient boilers and double glazing, yet make people drill 110 mm holes straight through the wall for extractor fans, therefore loosing a lot of the heat ‘energy’ they are trying to safe. Why because they have blocked up most of the natural ventilation. It's highly contradictory!

Logic says if 8” (I would have preferred 10”) timber spans 16’ for 125+ years it can span 8’ feet with support below!

Thanks

I have scrapped this idea, as the floor above will be housing a mother elephant, I will need to place oak beams every 300mm or a 12" RSJ every 600mm, but what if the blue whale wants to move into, could the walls support all the steel?

andymason79 wrote:
andymason79 Wrote:

Do you think that a 200 X 150 Oak beam placed below below the existing
joints, in the same location as the (proposed double 192 X 74) would be
any better?

Am I completely wrong in the assumption that placing a joist
perpendicular to the existing joists and hanging them from and nailing
them to it reduces the span to ~ 2.9 and 2.1 metres?


I have scrapped this idea, as the floor above will be housing a mother
elephant, I will need to place oak beams every 300mm or a 12" RSJ every
600mm, but what if the blue whale wants to move into, could the walls
support all the steel?



A series of acrow props downstairs? Paint them in pastel shades