Following gas fire removal, I want to open up a chimney breast back to the
original (Victorian) brick arch. Had my BI round and he says this should be
OK - *in theory* should all hold up after the infill is taken out, as I
hoped.

However, I remember someone on Property Ladder trying this and ending up
with a collapsing chimney breast!. So,
I would like to re-inforce the old brickwork in some quick & easy way - just
in case Will rake out and point up the old mortar in/around the vicinity,
but I don't want to go as far as props & insert new lintel.

So I thought something like a rigid steel 4ft strap screwed just over top of
the arch (to be plastered over) or my BI mentioned some sort of rod that
insert into the mortar. Does anyone have any suggestions - what specifically
should I ask for at my (clueless) builders merchants?.

The fireplace is about 5 '3" wide, the arched opening 3' 3" wide.

Thanks,

Egremont

Egremont wrote:
I would like to re-inforce the old brickwork in some quick & easy way - just
in case Will rake out and point up the old mortar in/around the vicinity,
but I don't want to go as far as props & insert new lintel.
So I thought something like a rigid steel 4ft strap screwed just over top of
the arch (to be plastered over) or my BI mentioned some sort of rod that
insert into the mortar. Does anyone have any suggestions - what specifically
should I ask for at my (clueless) builders merchants?.

The BM won't know what you're talking about unless you tell them
the right thing - in any case, this sort of thing is a bit unusual
nowadays...


The fireplace is about 5 '3" wide, the arched opening 3' 3" wide.

There is probably a piece of iron strip under the arch, which was
put there originally to build up on. It isn't particularly load
bearing, being 1" to 2" wide, and 1/4" thick. You may find that
years of fires have loosened this up, together with the bricks
above it. You can either gun in grout, or simply re-build the
arch, re-using the bricks that came out. I assume you're keeping
the chimney breast plastere finish?

Hi,

just started opening a few fireplaces myself. I cut back the plaster up
from the bottom until I found the first course of old bricks. These
clearly are built as a lintle (similar to the ones over old windows
with wedge shaped bricks). They also have soot on the bottom. The first
course of new bricks came out easily without disturbing the old ones
(the load on the lintle should hold them in place). IMHO if the lintle
course seems loose it will need some ironwork/concrete lintle.
But if in doubt, get a "pro" in.
good luck
Bax

By asking here, I'm hoping to pin down exactly what to ask from he BM. No
sign of any original strip, also I've removed the plaster up to about 6ft
and will re-plaster.

All that I think is needed is something (to be defined) to fix in/on to help
the old arch out a bit with the load. This should also help moderate any
sideways forces generated by the re-instated arch onto the surrounding
masonary, which I think might help. BTW the BI wasn't overly concerned by
the situation - perhaps less so than me!.

Egremont.

Egremont wrote:
By asking here, I'm hoping to pin down exactly what to ask from he BM. No
sign of any original strip,

theyre between brick courses, and typically not visible.


also I've removed the plaster up to about 6ft
and will re-plaster.

All that I think is needed is something (to be defined) to fix in/on to help
the old arch out a bit with the load. This should also help moderate any
sideways forces generated by the re-instated arch onto the surrounding
masonary, which I think might help. BTW the BI wasn't overly concerned by
the situation - perhaps less so than me!.

Egremont.


It sounds like typical Victorian construction, so its held up most of a
century so far. Usual practice then was to insert a thin metal bar
above the arch, so the arch didnt need to support anything but itself.
That way the arch could be made very shallow.

The brickwork above is for the most part self supporting, the metal bar
just supports the 3' wide triangle of bricks that arent self
supporting.

I would be suprised if there were any problems if you removed the
infill, so long as the mortar between the arch bricks and piers is
sound first. Hopefully you understand this should be done in lime, not
cement, to avoid future weakening of the whole structure.


NT

Egremont wrote:
By asking here, I'm hoping to pin down exactly what to ask from he BM. No
sign of any original strip

Quite possible, it may have been built up on a bent batten.


also I've removed the plaster up to about 6ft
and will re-plaster.

All that I think is needed is something (to be defined) to fix in/on to help
the old arch out a bit with the load.

Shouldn't be needed, it's hardly holding up anything at all -
theoretically about 10 bricks.


This should also help moderate any
sideways forces generated by the re-instated arch onto the surrounding
masonary, which I think might help. BTW the BI wasn't overly concerned by
the situation - perhaps less so than me!.

I should just point it up - if you really think it needs re-
doing, just knock it out ad re-build it. You'll need a bit of
sand, a bit of lime, and a bucket of sand, and a former. Just
line the arch up on the former, make sure the mortar is packed
into the joints, and dgo up from there, replacing th single
brick last. How long's it lasted as it is, after all? Over
100 years!

wrote:
It sounds like typical Victorian construction, so its held up most of a
century so far. Usual practice then was to insert a thin metal bar
above the arch,

I've never seen that.


so the arch didnt need to support anything but itself.
That way the arch could be made very shallow.

The brickwork above is for the most part self supporting, the metal bar
just supports the 3' wide triangle of bricks that arent self
supporting.

Yup.


I would be suprised if there were any problems if you removed the
infill, so long as the mortar between the arch bricks and piers is
sound first. Hopefully you understand this should be done in lime, not
cement, to avoid future weakening of the whole structure.

Not sure why it's all that important in this case.

I'm not really suprised that I'm on my own with the rigid re-inforcing bar
notion...

I think a problem is unlikely, but I thought for the sake of it the above is
worthwhile insurance, But, maybe if I was a proper builder I wouldn't...
anyway just to clarify the old arch is present and in reasonable condition,
bar a little pointing up.

Definitately no strip under the arch - about 12" of the infill has already
been removed (space where a 60's fireplace probably was). Interesting there
might already be a bar inserted over the arch - if so the Victorians beat me
to it and may have saved me a job!.

In my ignorance I was planning on using a strong (dry) cement mortar mix for
the pointing up, packing in hard. I don't want to bother with lime mortar
mortar unless this is really important.

BTW I'd automatically assumed that this would be re-plastered, but would
some people just clean up the brickwork and lease as-is - if so has anyone
tried this and had a good result?.

One interesting find was a horizontal steel gas pipe about 6ft up traversing
the width of the chimney breast with two capped-off elbows about 6" from
each edge where, it seems, original gas lights would have been. I won't be
putting gas lights back in, but an interesting thought!.

Egremont

In article ,
"Egremont" writes:

BTW I'd automatically assumed that this would be re-plastered, but would
some people just clean up the brickwork and lease as-is - if so has anyone
tried this and had a good result?.

Since the wall was intended to be plastered, it may be built
with B-grade bricks, and not by the best brickie on site. Add to
that staining from having been plastered, and you would probably
be rather disappointed with the result.

One interesting find was a horizontal steel gas pipe about 6ft up traversing
the width of the chimney breast with two capped-off elbows about 6" from
each edge where, it seems, original gas lights would have been. I won't be
putting gas lights back in, but an interesting thought!.

Yes, I found several such throughout my house. It really got me
wondering what type of gaslamps would have been there originally,
and I'd love to reinstate some. I kept hoping to find them dumped
under the floor or in the corner of the loft or somewhere, but I
never did. I have since disconnected all the old gaslamp pipework
from the supply though.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Egremont wrote:

I'm not really suprised that I'm on my own with the rigid re-inforcing bar
notion...

It really a non issue. If theres no support of any kind, and your arch
is totally shot (which should be pretty obvious), if youre extremely
unlucky, at the very worst you'll lose a triangle of bricks 3' wide,
and have to put them back. In nearly every case even completely
unsupported brickwork holds itself up fine: youve got an arch and 99%
likely a metal bar as well.


In my ignorance I was planning on using a strong (dry) cement mortar mix for
the pointing up, packing in hard. I don't want to bother with lime mortar
mortar unless this is really important.

Lime is no extra work if you buy lime putty. And no extra cost if you
make it: get a bag of lime, mix it to a paste with water, store in a
closed tub for 2-3 weeks, and use it 3:1 with sand. If you use cement,
when the cement fails in time it pulls bits of the bricks away with it,
thats where lime wins. Its also a lot less prone to cracking, and
breaking bricks.

If you want to use a cement mix to get it done quick, use 1:1:6. Thats
volumes of cement : dry lime : sand. Dont use a strong mix.


BTW I'd automatically assumed that this would be re-plastered, but would
some people just clean up the brickwork and lease as-is - if so has anyone
tried this and had a good result?.

Many. Youll find out what it looks like when its uncovered. Though I
thought it already was?


NT

I had a quick dig but didn't see any metal strip. Although I understand any
masonary failure would be recoverable, I wouldn't fancy rebuilding the arch
if it came to it. So, I did buy/screw a 1200mm restraint strap over the
arch. Took about 20 mins but it was a borderline decision and even I'm not
convinced it was worth it. But I now have my exposed arch and very
impressive it looks too, after the ugly gas fire that was there before, so
I'm happy enough.

I wish someone had told me about lime mortar about two years ago - quite a
bit of work was done here with sand and cement, though not exterior pointing
up. The one awkward problem I had was that a single brick in the arch was
loose enough to move. I had to remove it, clean it and wedge it back in (I
used a hammer and old slates), but at one point it got a bit complicated
when it fell along with the one next to it. This left me holding up two
bricks in position with one hand and wedging in with a hammer uing the
other - bit it seemed to work and the arch was eventally tight & solid even
before pointing up.

It's true that most of the chimney breast is down to brick, albeit covered
in powdery Browning remnants. I thought it might look interesting
cleaned-up - a sort of rough but distinctly smokey-Victorian period look
(though I wouldn't like to slip and hit my head on the corner), but anyway
have now settled on plan A - replastering..

Now I now have a few follow-on things to investigate off-line (like can I
light up a log fire now and again without smoking up the room)...

Thanks all for the replies.

Egremont.

PS the original gas lights used the the old coal gas, I wonder how they'd
fare with natural gas?.

Egremont wrote:
It's true that most of the chimney breast is down to brick, albeit covered
in powdery Browning remnants. I thought it might look interesting
cleaned-up - a sort of rough but distinctly smokey-Victorian period look

Period look? They'dve been shocked! More like a 1970s. new-built smoky
pub look. Yuck!


but anyway have now settled on plan A - replastering..

Well done!


Now I now have a few follow-on things to investigate off-line (like can I
light up a log fire now and again without smoking up the room)...

You can test the draught by *loosly* crumpling some newspaper into a
ball and seeing if it/the smoke goes up th chimney when you light it.


PS the original gas lights used the the old coal gas, I wonder how they'd
fare with natural gas?.

They'd have to be re-jetted, and would be much less dangerous.