Having looked around at what's available,
I settled on some garden lighting kits that
were to my taste and today bought them from
B&Q. I have just had a large deck built in
the garden and they will be installed in a
number of locations in and around the decking.

The kits are as follows...

3 x 50mm Round LED Kits
(Each of these contains 2 fittings and 1
Transformer. A 4-way adaptor allows 2 extra
fittings to be connected to 1 Transformer,
making 4. I need 6 fittings, so will use a
4-gang and 2-gang combination, leaving the
3rd transformer redundant (or, as I told the
missus... 'a spare, just in case!'. These will
be flush fitted, into the decking, as a straight
line along the left edge of the deck).

1 x 10mm Round Step Warning Kit
(Contains 10 x mini-LED fittings and 1 transformer.
I will install these at the step onto the deck,
5 on the step and 5 in the riser.

1 x Post Lights Kit
(Contains 4 post-light fittings with spikes at
base and 1 transformer. These are to go in the
flower bed along the right-hand edge of the deck.

All kits are supplied with standard, fuse-rated
plugs which are intended to be "plugged in" to
domestic, 240v wall sockets INSIDE the house!
Everything else is external rated and can be
located outside.

I would rather avoid routing the plugs into the
house and have to chase-out and install 3 new
double sockets, in the nearest wall! This'd be
a lot of work, look unsightly and not be an ideal
situation for controlling the lights.

A much better solution would be for me to 'spur off'
of an existing 10mm, 3-core, armor cable that is
buried in the flower bed, on the right, and sends
juice to the sheds at the far-end of the garden.

This is where I need advice... assuming I take the
spur cable (using new armored cable), under the
deck and to the front edge, could I remove the plugs
from the 4 kits and connect the flexes to 3 separate,
externally approved switches that are protected by
fuses of the same rating as was in the plugs? (do such
devices exist?). These would all be fitted in a line,
one next to the other, along the front edge of the
deck and would all be connected (in series?) to the
spur cable. I am aware that a spur should normally
only supply a single socket - hence my uncertainty.
I'm also in doubt about connecting the 2 transformers
(supplying power to the 6 x 50mm Round lights) to
the 1 switch, so that they are all controlled via
that.

Another alternative, regarding switching control
rather than nature of installation, that I'm considering
is to have ALL the kits controlled by just the one
switch. This again conjures up a host of queries to
me, as to how this could be catered for... perhaps by
locating the 1 switch, before the lighting circuits,
on the main armored spur?

Can anyone tell me if I've got this all wrong and
suggest an appropriate method? To assist anyone
kind enough to help, I have uploaded a diagram that
illustrates my plan and this can be viewed here...

http://d.heighington.users.btopenwor...k_lighting.jpg

Also, here's a link to the specs of the flower bed,
post lights. I can't seem to find specs for the 2
other kits, but they are the same manufacturer and,
I think, are of the same rating!...

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/produc...67&paintCatId=

Many thanks,

Dean

Run a conduit or trunking that spurs to the ring circuit of the house
sockets. The spur should be fused at the correct rating to supply both the
transformers, but this does not mean doubling the rating because there are
two. Conduit or trunking isn't to unsightly if installed along the bottom
or top of a skirting board or door architrave, and should be enough to take
the proper sized cabling needed for the lighting system.

Your switch gear could then be installed indoors to keep them out of the
weather, which is safer in the long run.

Good luck with it.

wrote:

All kits are supplied with standard, fuse-rated
plugs which are intended to be "plugged in" to
domestic, 240v wall sockets INSIDE the house!
Everything else is external rated and can be
located outside.

Does this include all the trasformers (freqently these are not rated for
external use either)?

I would rather avoid routing the plugs into the
house and have to chase-out and install 3 new
double sockets, in the nearest wall! This'd be
a lot of work, look unsightly and not be an ideal
situation for controlling the lights.

Where would you ideally like to control the lights from?

A much better solution would be for me to 'spur off'
of an existing 10mm, 3-core, armor cable that is
buried in the flower bed, on the right, and sends
juice to the sheds at the far-end of the garden.

Hmmm, don't fancy that much...

This is where I need advice... assuming I take the
spur cable (using new armored cable), under the
deck and to the front edge, could I remove the plugs
from the 4 kits and connect the flexes to 3 separate,
externally approved switches that are protected by
fuses of the same rating as was in the plugs? (do such
devices exist?). These would all be fitted in a line,
one next to the other, along the front edge of the
deck and would all be connected (in series?) to the
spur cable. I am aware that a spur should normally
only supply a single socket - hence my uncertainty.

A fused spur can supply any number of sockets...

I'm also in doubt about connecting the 2 transformers
(supplying power to the 6 x 50mm Round lights) to
the 1 switch, so that they are all controlled via
that.

Are all these transformers supplying the same sort output (i.e. 12V AC
for example)?

Can anyone tell me if I've got this all wrong and
suggest an appropriate method? To assist anyone
kind enough to help, I have uploaded a diagram that
illustrates my plan and this can be viewed here...

I think I would be looking at doing the vast bulk of the wiring, and
switching on the low voltage side of things. Perhaps building a new PSU
that can feed a LV supply from the house to the deck, and then having
whatedver switching is required for the different lights in the LV
wiring on the deck. That saves lots of fuss messing about with 240V
outside.

Also, here's a link to the specs of the flower bed,
post lights. I can't seem to find specs for the 2
other kits, but they are the same manufacturer and,
I think, are of the same rating!...

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/produc...67&paintCatId=

Does not say if they are AC or DC, but at a guess they will be AC. Not
sure what the LED lights will expect however. Assuming they all want 12V
AC then an electronic LV lighting transformer of the type used for
internal halogen lighting could supply enough juice for the whole setup.
One hefty ish cable run outside from the house to the deck, switched and
then direct connection to the lights.

You can forget about all the bundled transformers that way, and not
worry about using mains outside at all.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

B&Q sell a wireless socket switch kit for £20 (two remotes and three plug
sockets) and a large waterproof plastic box for ~£16.

Put a 4way in the box with the wireless switched socket adapters in it and
connect the 4 way to an existing socket.

Very safe as you only ever touch the remote to turn the lights on and off.

In article .com,
wrote:

Having looked around at what's available,
I settled on some garden lighting kits that
were to my taste and today bought them from
B&Q. I have just had a large deck built in
the garden and they will be installed in a
number of locations in and around the decking.

Thanks for all the useful replies.
Before I answer each individually, I need to state
that since my first post, I have discovered that
each of these lighting kits uses a transformer which
is also the plug. Thus, it is apparent that the
manufacturers intend for this to be 'plugged in',
to a wall socket WITHIN the house. This scuppers
my original plan but I still want to avoid a mass
of transformers on the wall indoors.

I'm confident, from your posts, that there is a
solution which will enable me to 'do away' with
these ugly beasts AND allow me to control the lights
from the decking.

cheers,

deano.

In article ,
"dennis@home" wrote:

B&Q sell a wireless socket switch kit for £20 (two remotes and three plug
sockets) and a large waterproof plastic box for ~£16.

Put a 4way in the box with the wireless switched socket adapters in it and
connect the 4 way to an existing socket.

Very safe as you only ever touch the remote to turn the lights on and off.

This sounds promising!

So, if I understand correctly, I can plug the 4 transformers, supplied
with the kits, into a 4-gang socket block, with a wireless adaptor
between each transformer and each socket on the block. All this goes
into a big plastic box and I have a remote for each plug?

I know this doesn't add up, as you mentioned: 2 x remotes; 3 x plug
sockets and 1 x 4 way (socket block?)

Also, I only want 3 circuits... the 50mm Round lights have to be
joined and controlled by 1 switch!

I must admit, I'm a little confused, could you spell it out for
me?

tnks,

deano.

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:00:59 +0000 (UTC),it is alleged that Dean
Heighington spake thusly in
uk.d-i-y:

Thanks for all the useful replies.
Before I answer each individually, I need to state
that since my first post, I have discovered that
each of these lighting kits uses a transformer which
is also the plug. Thus, it is apparent that the
manufacturers intend for this to be 'plugged in',
to a wall socket WITHIN the house. This scuppers
my original plan but I still want to avoid a mass
of transformers on the wall indoors.

I'm confident, from your posts, that there is a
solution which will enable me to 'do away' with
these ugly beasts AND allow me to control the lights
from the decking.

cheers,

deano.

Its 20 quid, but TLC's http://tinyurl.com/dvsln might be what you're
after, it (so far as I can tell) ends in a flexible cord with a plug,
but that's a normal plug and could be removed for connection via a
switch etc,and it WILL hold and hide those ugly transformer plugs and
could be wired into a switch (with the appropriate cable glands etc).
TLC's outdoor cheapo wiring section contains very cheap weatherproof
switches etc which may help.

My general idea would be to take the circuit from a fused connection
unit indoors, an RCD protected type if no other RCD is on the circuit,
thence to the switch, and from there to that box, using the correct
glands etc.

HTH

--
This .signature has been hijacked by the Shellfish Liberation Army.
Please remain clam.

"Dean Heighington" wrote in message
...

I know this doesn't add up, as you mentioned: 2 x remotes; 3 x plug
sockets and 1 x 4 way (socket block?)

Also, I only want 3 circuits... the 50mm Round lights have to be
joined and controlled by 1 switch!

I must admit, I'm a little confused, could you spell it out for
me?

Its a big box so you could put a 4 way and a 2 way in.

The lights don't use much power so heat shouldn't be a problem.

You could extend the low voltage wires and put the stuff in the garage/shed.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:


Does this include all the trasformers (freqently these are not rated for
external use either)?

As mentioned, transformer are included but are also the plug
for each kit and NO, they're not externally rated!

Where would you ideally like to control the lights from?

Somewhere on or around the deck. Not from wall socket in house.

Hmmm, don't fancy that much...

Why's that?

A fused spur can supply any number of sockets...

OK, thanks for pointing that out.

Are all these transformers supplying the same sort output (i.e. 12V AC
for example)?

Yes they are, I think its all 10V AC.

I think I would be looking at doing the vast bulk of the wiring, and
switching on the low voltage side of things. Perhaps building a new PSU
that can feed a LV supply from the house to the deck, and then having
whatedver switching is required for the different lights in the LV
wiring on the deck. That saves lots of fuss messing about with 240V
outside.


Due to other, ongoing building works currently happening, I do have an
available cable route from the garden, through the kitchen, garage
and into the understairs cupboard where the consumer unit is. This is
all via 2" conduit hidden behind fixtures and fittings. Are you
suggesting that I add a new circuit to the consumer unit, using one
of the spare 'ways', and fit a PSU which converts 240V to LV (replacing
the kit supplied transformers) and suitable for providing LV to all
3 lighting circuits in unison? And then interrupting the LV supply to
each by installing the desired switches?

Sounds like a potential solution and seems proper. How do I go about
calculating the requirements and selecting the correct components to
allow this?


Does not say if they are AC or DC, but at a guess they will be AC. Not
sure what the LED lights will expect however. Assuming they all want 12V
AC then an electronic LV lighting transformer of the type used for
internal halogen lighting could supply enough juice for the whole setup.
One hefty ish cable run outside from the house to the deck, switched and
then direct connection to the lights.

Is this an alternative to the above or in addition? It sounds
like an option as the biggest problem I have is the kit supplied
transformer plugs and it seems plausible that there would be a
transformer on the market that would cater for all three circuits.
Again, I lack experience with LV systems, but assume that such a
device would have an array of (2 or more) connectors and converts
240V on one side to multiple LV outputs on the other? I can then
install switches on each LV feed?


You can forget about all the bundled transformers that way, and not
worry about using mains outside at all.

Have I understood you correctly? Which do you think is more
appropriate and cost-effective?

thnks,

deano.

Dean Heighington wrote.

All sounds confused. Use one transformer to supply the lot, and it will
need to be a toroidal, not an electronic one, since the tronics have
minimum load requirements that youll go below.

The toroidal transformer plugs in the mains, theres no reason to add a
CU way for it.

Switch everything on the LV side, switches wherever you want them.

To determine ratings of transformer we need the specs of the lights:
power, voltage and type. The kit says halogen, you say LED. Kit says
10w, you say 10v - proper info required.

Since everything will be wired at LV, life will be easy.


NT

Are the lights part of the select-a-light system
http://www.cmsgardens.co.uk/lightselect.htm ?

If so which ones?

There are multiple transformers available to suit different numbers of
lights.

In article .com,
wrote:

Dean Heighington wrote.

All sounds confused. Use one transformer to supply the lot, and it will
need to be a toroidal, not an electronic one, since the tronics have
minimum load requirements that youll go below.

The toroidal transformer plugs in the mains, theres no reason to add a
CU way for it.

Switch everything on the LV side, switches wherever you want them.

To determine ratings of transformer we need the specs of the lights:
power, voltage and type. The kit says halogen, you say LED. Kit says
10w, you say 10v - proper info required.

Since everything will be wired at LV, life will be easy.


NT

OK, I should've done this to start with... I've grabbed the boxes and
here are the relevant specs/ratings:


Kit Name: "2 Beam" (2 x 115mm dia lights containing 36 LED bulbs each)

Barcode: "5 014838 170038"
Model No.'s: 7002, 7003
(Info is not very clear as these are repackaged for B&Q)
NB: Having read instructions inside, these now tell me that
light fittings should ONLY be fitted in a VERTICAL position! But doesn't
specifically say NOT Horizontal, just that WET locations should be
avoided. No indication of this requirement on the box itself! I want to
mount them horizontally in the decking... should/shouldn't I? I could
use some 4" drainpipe to deter water ingress... yet more questions!

As mentioned before, I bought three of these kits, to give me the 6
lights I'm after. Leaving me with 1 redundant transformer and 4-gang
adaptor. I know there are accessory packs available containing just
lights, transformers etc, but you know B&Q... chaotic, understocked and
when you eventually find a staff member, they don't know jack!

According to the packaging and instructions, the kit includes:

1 x Internally rated, plugin transformer (12VDC 2000mA) + 15m cable
1 x External (IP44) 4-way JB (adaptor)
2 x External (IP44) light fittings + 5m cable

************************************************** **********************

Kit Name: "10 Ultra" (10 x 15mm lights containing 1 LED bulb each)

According to the packaging and instructions, the kit includes:

1 x Internally rated, plugin transformer (12V 200mA) + 15m cable
* doesn't specify whether AC or DC!
1 x External (IP44) 10-way JB (adaptor)
10 x External (IP54) light fittings + 5m cable each

************************************************** **********************

Kit Name: "Button" (4 x Post Spike lights with Night Sensor [optional])

According to the packaging and instructions, the kit includes:

1 x Indoor plug with 3AMP fuse
1 x External (IP64) Transformer (12VAC 4200mA) + 4m cable
1 x External (IP44) Photocell (night sensor) + 2m cable
1 x 14m extension cable
4 x External (IP44) spiked, Halogen lights

************************************************** **********************


Kits 1 and 2 are from the same manufacturer. Kit 3 from another.

Can all these be powered by one transformer?

rgds,

deano.

In article ,
"dennis@home" wrote:

Are the lights part of the select-a-light system
http://www.cmsgardens.co.uk/lightselect.htm ?

If so which ones?

There are multiple transformers available to suit different numbers of
lights.

Please see preceding post for details.

cheers.

d.

"Dean Heighington" wrote in message
...

(Info is not very clear as these are repackaged for B&Q)
NB: Having read instructions inside, these now tell me that
light fittings should ONLY be fitted in a VERTICAL position! But doesn't
specifically say NOT Horizontal, just that WET locations should be
avoided. No indication of this requirement on the box itself! I want to
mount them horizontally in the decking... should/shouldn't I? I could
use some 4" drainpipe to deter water ingress... yet more questions!

As they are 12V then it shouldn't be electrically dangerous to mount them
horizontaly...
but they probably won't last for long as the water gets in and they corrode.

Will they survive if someone steps on them?
In heels?


As mentioned before, I bought three of these kits, to give me the 6
lights I'm after. Leaving me with 1 redundant transformer and 4-gang
adaptor. I know there are accessory packs available containing just
lights, transformers etc, but you know B&Q... chaotic, understocked and
when you eventually find a staff member, they don't know jack!

According to the packaging and instructions, the kit includes:

1 x Internally rated, plugin transformer (12VDC 2000mA) + 15m cable
1 x External (IP44) 4-way JB (adaptor)
2 x External (IP44) light fittings + 5m cable

************************************************** **********************

Kit Name: "10 Ultra" (10 x 15mm lights containing 1 LED bulb each)

According to the packaging and instructions, the kit includes:

1 x Internally rated, plugin transformer (12V 200mA) + 15m cable
* doesn't specify whether AC or DC!
1 x External (IP44) 10-way JB (adaptor)
10 x External (IP54) light fittings + 5m cable each


You should be able power these from the same transformer as the above (deck
lights).
Put 3 lamps on each transformer and these on one of them.

Do the lamps have a rating lable on them as 2000mA seems a lot for four LED
lamps.


************************************************** **********************

Kit Name: "Button" (4 x Post Spike lights with Night Sensor [optional])

According to the packaging and instructions, the kit includes:

1 x Indoor plug with 3AMP fuse
1 x External (IP64) Transformer (12VAC 4200mA) + 4m cable
1 x External (IP44) Photocell (night sensor) + 2m cable
1 x 14m extension cable
4 x External (IP44) spiked, Halogen lights

These are best left on their own transformer as they are AC.
You can run them on DC but it will cost more than its worth.

Dean Heighington wrote:

As mentioned, transformer are included but are also the plug
for each kit and NO, they're not externally rated!

Ah, OK wall warts then...

Hmmm, don't fancy that much...


Why's that?

It is a lot of hassle to dig up a SWA and then make a waterproof
junction to it underground etc.

Are all these transformers supplying the same sort output (i.e. 12V AC
for example)?


Yes they are, I think its all 10V AC.

OK looking at your specs from the other post, the LED lights both have a
12DC Supply, the ordinary halogen ones use a 12V AC supply. There is
nothing to stop you running the AC lights on DC since they should just
be ordinary incandescent bulbs (the reverse is not true since the LEDs
won't like having AC stuffed up em!)

So you need one 12V DC supply that can handle a total current.

Due to other, ongoing building works currently happening, I do have an
available cable route from the garden, through the kitchen, garage
and into the understairs cupboard where the consumer unit is. This is
all via 2" conduit hidden behind fixtures and fittings. Are you

No need for a dedicated circuit here - we are talking about a tiny load
overall - less than 100W in total.

suggesting that I add a new circuit to the consumer unit, using one
of the spare 'ways', and fit a PSU which converts 240V to LV (replacing
the kit supplied transformers) and suitable for providing LV to all
3 lighting circuits in unison? And then interrupting the LV supply to
each by installing the desired switches?

Yup that would be a solution...

Sounds like a potential solution and seems proper. How do I go about
calculating the requirements and selecting the correct components to
allow this?

Personally I would start by measuring the actual current draw of each
set of lights (with multimeter if you have one)

Does not say if they are AC or DC, but at a guess they will be AC. Not
sure what the LED lights will expect however. Assuming they all want 12V
AC then an electronic LV lighting transformer of the type used for
internal halogen lighting could supply enough juice for the whole setup.
One hefty ish cable run outside from the house to the deck, switched and
then direct connection to the lights.


Is this an alternative to the above or in addition? It sounds

It was a continuation of the above - just suggesting a cheap and
available source of power supply - but now we know two sets require DC
it is not such an attractive solution since the output of lighting
transformers are AC and not DC and hence unsuitable for the LED lights.

like an option as the biggest problem I have is the kit supplied
transformer plugs and it seems plausible that there would be a
transformer on the market that would cater for all three circuits.

There is a huge choice of PSUs of various types available. Your
requirements would seem to point toward a fairly high powered DC one at
the moment. Perhaps a small computer PSU would do the job since these
will knock out a good number of amps at 12V. You need to find out how
much each of the clusters of lights are using first before getting into
too many more specifics (computer PSUs also have a minimum load beneath
which they will not work).

Again, I lack experience with LV systems, but assume that such a
device would have an array of (2 or more) connectors and converts
240V on one side to multiple LV outputs on the other? I can then
install switches on each LV feed?

If you had a PSU with enough output then you could simply take your
three feeds from it and then switch them.

Have I understood you correctly? Which do you think is more
appropriate and cost-effective?

Using the ones you have is the most cost effective, however it may not
be the most appropriate.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:


Ah, OK wall warts then...

YEP... nice metaphor


It is a lot of hassle to dig up a SWA and then make a waterproof
junction to it underground etc.

Indeed AND uneccessary to.


OK looking at your specs from the other post, the LED lights both have a
12DC Supply, the ordinary halogen ones use a 12V AC supply. There is
nothing to stop you running the AC lights on DC since they should just
be ordinary incandescent bulbs (the reverse is not true since the LEDs
won't like having AC stuffed up em!)

OK, I can sort of understand you on this. My knowledge of electrical
theory and principles is somewhat weak. I studied Technology at school
but had a boring teacher and other, more appealing, distractions at the
time. I take your word for it, but FMI, is it that the LEDs need a
'steady' (direct) current as they are very sensitive, whereas the
halogens would prefer alternating current, as they rely on heating of an
element, but will withstand DC through not being so sensitive???


So you need one 12V DC supply that can handle a total current.

OK... A 'daddy' transformer then?


No need for a dedicated circuit here - we are talking about a tiny load
overall - less than 100W in total.

Not wrong then, but would be overkill?


suggesting that I add a new circuit to the consumer unit, using one
of the spare 'ways', and fit a PSU which converts 240V to LV (replacing
the kit supplied transformers) and suitable for providing LV to all
3 lighting circuits in unison? And then interrupting the LV supply to
each by installing the desired switches?

Yup that would be a solution...

OK... Need to source 'external' switches that would suffice for LV. Or
would I have to use ones intended for 240V, because that's all is
available on the market? Again, I want to keep costs down, so would
consider any switching solution... would you employ 1 master switch for
ALL 3 circuits, or control them individually? Do you have a URL so that
I can see the full range of components available for 'external'
installations for LV (if they exist)?


Personally I would start by measuring the actual current draw of each
set of lights (with multimeter if you have one)

I have some such device from RapiTest... I need to did it out, but I'm
sure I remember it being a multimeter... might have been for cars though.
Should I have one (or buy/borrow one), I have no idea how/where to take
the readings from... can you advise?


Does not say if they are AC or DC, but at a guess they will be AC. Not
sure what the LED lights will expect however. Assuming they all want 12V
AC then an electronic LV lighting transformer of the type used for
internal halogen lighting could supply enough juice for the whole setup.
One hefty ish cable run outside from the house to the deck, switched and
then direct connection to the lights.


Is this an alternative to the above or in addition? It sounds

It was a continuation of the above - just suggesting a cheap and
available source of power supply - but now we know two sets require DC
it is not such an attractive solution since the output of lighting
transformers are AC and not DC and hence unsuitable for the LED lights.

Should I now disregard this then?


There is a huge choice of PSUs of various types available. Your
requirements would seem to point toward a fairly high powered DC one at
the moment. Perhaps a small computer PSU would do the job since these
will knock out a good number of amps at 12V. You need to find out how
much each of the clusters of lights are using first before getting into
too many more specifics (computer PSUs also have a minimum load beneath
which they will not work).

Again, I lack experience with LV systems, but assume that such a
device would have an array of (2 or more) connectors and converts
240V on one side to multiple LV outputs on the other? I can then
install switches on each LV feed?

If you had a PSU with enough output then you could simply take your
three feeds from it and then switch them.

That's why I'm concerned about choosing the wrong device. Would you
assist me with the selection and point me to a source where I can obtain
all that I might need?


Have I understood you correctly? Which do you think is more
appropriate and cost-effective?

Using the ones you have is the most cost effective, however it may not
be the most appropriate.

What's your 'ballpark' figure on the cost of going the CPSU route? It
may be that, ultimately, it would be prudent for me to use the supplied
"Warts" in a hidden location in the house (say the understairs cupboard)
and then just buy 1 (or three) external switches and fit them to the LV
cables at the deck. Again, available components dictating what I can
do... I assume that a 'single master switch' would have to be '3-pole'
(is this the correct terminology?). Also, would it be sufficient for me
to construct/purchase a 'waterproof box' at the house wall, into which I
could install a 4-gang, 240V extension block, with the 'warts' attached
and contained within?

Thanks

Dean.

Hi Dennis.

I respond to all your previous posts here.
Having read them, it seems a more simple way of obtaining a solution
than by employing the use of a single transformer, rated to supply the
lot (computer PSU).

In article ,
"dennis@home" wrote:

Are the lights part of the select-a-light system
http://www.cmsgardens.co.uk/lightselect.htm ?

If so which ones?

There are multiple transformers available to suit different numbers of
lights.

I wasn't aware of this range, from this manufacturer. I'm guilty of
seeing the ones in B&Q, liking them and buying on the spot (scuse the
pun). However, the range at the above URL do not have white LED units,
which is what I was after... I wanted to try and avoid the
"garden-fairy" atmosphere that the Blue and Green lighting might create!


As they are 12V then it shouldn't be electrically dangerous to mount them
horizontaly...
but they probably won't last for long as the water gets in and they corrode.

Will they survive if someone steps on them?
In heels?

Good point (the heels [another pun]) although they tend to make my feet
hurt so I wear them only on special occassions... or did you mean the
womenfolk who constantly crave my company and wear nothing but heels?

Seriously though, I might have to swap them for fittings intended for
deck mounting... B&Q did have a similar set but I didn't like the black
rubber outer ring which, with hindsight, was probably a shock absorber
for just such deck installations!

You should be able power these from the same transformer as the above (deck
lights).
Put 3 lamps on each transformer and these on one of them.

Do the lamps have a rating lable on them as 2000mA seems a lot for four LED
lamps.

OK, so this would use 2 transformers, and 2 of the 4-way adaptors, from
the 3 x "2 Beam" kits I have. Each 4-way would hold 3 of the "2 Beam"
LED lamps and on the 4th (spare) way of one adaptor, I could connect the
10-light "Ultra" array! This'll leave me with 2 redundant transformers,
one from a "2 Beam" kit and one from the "Ultra" kit!? That sounds
do-able, although how would I distribute the switching to isolate the
various phases? The simplest, I suppose, would be to install just 1
'master' switch at the 240V feed, before it reaches the 3 transformers,
rather than controlling each circuit individually!

The 2000mA I mentioned was printed on the supplied transformer, not the
lamps themselves.

These are best left on their own transformer as they are AC.
You can run them on DC but it will cost more than its worth.

This is what concerns me about the alternative solution using a PSU for
all the phases/circuits! I'm quite happy to utilize the supplied
transformers, if they can be housed in a neat-looking box in the garden
and I can add a switch(es) to the installation. Would there be any risk
from frost using this setup?

B&Q sell a wireless socket switch kit for £20 (two remotes and three plug
sockets) and a large waterproof plastic box for ~£16.

Put a 4way in the box with the wireless switched socket adapters in it and
connect the 4 way to an existing socket.

Very safe as you only ever touch the remote to turn the lights on and off.

This is similar to a suggestion by "Chip" elsewhere in this thread. Do
you have a URL for the devices you mention above? I can't seem to find
them on the B&Q (diy.com) website! I'd like to read the spec on the
wireless sockets with the remotes, although I'm still confused about
there being 2 remotes, but 3 plug sockets!

Its a big box so you could put a 4 way and a 2 way in.

The lights don't use much power so heat shouldn't be a problem.

You could extend the low voltage wires and put the stuff in the garage/shed.

Again, can I view this online somewhere? Combined with the wireless (or
even hard wired switches) it sounds like a promising solution as long as
frost won't pose a problem.

cheers

deano.

Dean Heighington wrote:

Ah, OK wall warts then...


YEP... nice metaphor

probably a uk.d-i-y special, but it seems to capture the essential
qualities l-)

OK looking at your specs from the other post, the LED lights both have a
12DC Supply, the ordinary halogen ones use a 12V AC supply. There is
nothing to stop you running the AC lights on DC since they should just
be ordinary incandescent bulbs (the reverse is not true since the LEDs
won't like having AC stuffed up em!)


OK, I can sort of understand you on this. My knowledge of electrical
theory and principles is somewhat weak. I studied Technology at school
but had a boring teacher and other, more appealing, distractions at the
time. I take your word for it, but FMI, is it that the LEDs need a
'steady' (direct) current as they are very sensitive, whereas the
halogens would prefer alternating current, as they rely on heating of an
element, but will withstand DC through not being so sensitive???

Sort of... the halogens are ordinary light bulbs which are not at all
fussy about what you feed them. Hence for garden lighting applications
it is cheaper to feed them AC since all you need is a transformer and
nothing much else.

LEDs (Light Emmiting Diodes), are electronic components that in most
respect behave like ordinary (i.e. non light emmiting) diodes - they
have a one way valve type of effect - they will only let current flow in
one direction. So when you connect them the "right" way round to the
power source they conduct, and emit light. When the wrong way round they
don't.

So best case on an AC supply (i.e. one that keeps swapping its polarity)
is that they would flash on and off at mains frequency (i.e. 50 times /
second). Unlike a light bulb they have no persistance of light output -
so when you turn them on of off, they react immediately. You may not see
this flicker when you look straight at them, however it would be
distracting as you move your eyes around since you would catch it in
your peripheral vision.

The worst case is if the supply voltage is higher than what is known as
the maximum "reverse bias" voltage of the diode. Ordinary dioes are
quite robust in that you can stick quite high voltages accros them in
the reverse direction and it does them no damage. LEDs however are a bit
more fragile and don't usually like large revers voltages. On some more
tahn 5V will kill them.

So you need one 12V DC supply that can handle a total current.


OK... A 'daddy' transformer then?

Yup.

No need for a dedicated circuit here - we are talking about a tiny load
overall - less than 100W in total.


Not wrong then, but would be overkill?

Basically yes.

suggesting that I add a new circuit to the consumer unit, using one
of the spare 'ways', and fit a PSU which converts 240V to LV (replacing
the kit supplied transformers) and suitable for providing LV to all
3 lighting circuits in unison? And then interrupting the LV supply to
each by installing the desired switches?

Yup that would be a solution...


OK... Need to source 'external' switches that would suffice for LV. Or
would I have to use ones intended for 240V, because that's all is
available on the market? Again, I want to keep costs down, so would

External switches designed for 240V will tend to be fine for 12V also.

Something like:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...hes/index.html

consider any switching solution... would you employ 1 master switch for
ALL 3 circuits, or control them individually? Do you have a URL so that
I can see the full range of components available for 'external'
installations for LV (if they exist)?

If you end up connecting to a socket to feed the daddy PSU then that can
be your master switch. See the TLC site above for a good range of stuff.

Also look at:

http://www.cpc.co.uk/

Personally I would start by measuring the actual current draw of each
set of lights (with multimeter if you have one)


I have some such device from RapiTest... I need to did it out, but I'm
sure I remember it being a multimeter... might have been for cars though.
Should I have one (or buy/borrow one), I have no idea how/where to take
the readings from... can you advise?

Multimeters are dead cheap anyway. See CPC above or www.maplin.co.uk.

To take a current reading you need to place the meter in series with the
circuit. i.e. you need to disconnect one of the wires to the PSU and
connect it to one of the MM leads. Then connect the other MM lead to the
PSU so that the current is actually flowing through the meter. (This is
different from using it to measure volatage where you can simply connect
it across the terminals of the PSU)

Is this an alternative to the above or in addition? It sounds

It was a continuation of the above - just suggesting a cheap and
available source of power supply - but now we know two sets require DC
it is not such an attractive solution since the output of lighting
transformers are AC and not DC and hence unsuitable for the LED lights.


Should I now disregard this then?

You can disregard the bit about the LV ligghting transformer since the
output of this will not be suitable for the LED lights.

That's why I'm concerned about choosing the wrong device. Would you
assist me with the selection and point me to a source where I can obtain
all that I might need?

The CPC link above is a good choice for PSUs. I can advise on a model,
but will need to know how much current all your lights are really going
to need since that will affect how much you need to spend!

Have I understood you correctly? Which do you think is more
appropriate and cost-effective?

Using the ones you have is the most cost effective, however it may not
be the most appropriate.


What's your 'ballpark' figure on the cost of going the CPSU route? It

Assuming you need a 5 to 10A supply, then then cheapest PSU would
probably be a computer one. These start at about 10 quid. If you went
for a nice neat small boxed unit however you could easily end up
spending 30 to 40.

may be that, ultimately, it would be prudent for me to use the supplied
"Warts" in a hidden location in the house (say the understairs cupboard)
and then just buy 1 (or three) external switches and fit them to the LV
cables at the deck. Again, available components dictating what I can

There is alot to be said for that. You will often need to extend the
wires for these things anyway...

do... I assume that a 'single master switch' would have to be '3-pole'
(is this the correct terminology?). Also, would it be sufficient for me

No need for 3-pole, single pole would do. (you split the supply to the
three lights after the switch, not before)

to construct/purchase a 'waterproof box' at the house wall, into which I
could install a 4-gang, 240V extension block, with the 'warts' attached
and contained within?

Someone posted a link to such a thing the other day - it may have been
on the TLC site...


--
Cheers,

John.

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In article ,
"dennis@home" wrote:


I can't see them on diy.com.
I bought some about 4 weeks ago.
I have attached a picture (bad bad bad).

No, not at all! The picture is great. As a designer, I always have
to see things visually before I can resolve what's in me 'ead!

They look like just the ticket, I can stuff all of these inside a wall
mounted box and keep the remotes handy... that'd impress the hordes of
girls dressed in nothing but heels! The product at
http://tinyurl.com/dvsln looks good but I'd like to compare it with the
B&Q one that you suggested! Can you give me the product name and/or
model No.s of the wireless switch kit and the ABS housing you have
mentioned? That way I can ring my (not so) nearest B&Q and hopefully
avoid a wasted trip... if that is where you bought/saw them?

Also, I'm still unsure how I could configure the set up so that the deck
lights and step lights are switched separately... if I employ your
method of 3 deck lights per transformer, with the step lights added to
one of these, and then plug these transformers into 2 of the 3 wireless
sockets, I would end up with an odd split! I could plug a 2-way adaptor
into 1 of the wireless sockets and then 2 transformers (for the deck
lights) into this... or would that be verging on the 'unsafe'?

I can't see that either.
Is an ABS box just like the external boxes used for junctions, etc.
There are inlet and outlet points at the bottom, the rest is sealed.
I can't see why frost should have any effect.

Again, I'd like to see it before making a decision... I'm tempted to nip
down to B&Q now for a butchers!


The halogen transformer was IP54 rated IIRC so it can live outside if you
want.


If there's room in the box, I'd prefer to hide it!