On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:15:50 +0000, BigWallop wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:05:49 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

snipped

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to put the food in air-tight bags, then
micro-wave them? Micro-waves will heat the food to the point of killing
the
germans (sorry, germs), then the air-tight bag will stop anything else
getting in to the food. Sterile enough or what?


Suppose I want a fresh, uncooked, tomato?

Then don't micro-wave it for so long. Most people here are talking about
"irradiating" the food, when all this really means, in the real world
anyway, is running it through a micro-wave oven for a minute or two. The
only thing that really gets "irradiated" to sterilise it, is fruit fly
larvae. But that a different type of sterilisation all together. :-)

AIUI, microwaves don't kill small organisms directly. If you want to
sterilize something in a microwave oven, I think you will have to do it by
heating it to the boiling point.

When people talk about irradiating food, I believe they are talking about
high-energy gamma radiation, not microwaves.

--Mac

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:21:02 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't a false allegation have to be published to
be considered libel?

--Mac

In article .com,
wrote:
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Skip the nuclear part and just get a big electron gun. That's what
they're using for things like mangos and papayas in Hawaii. And
the neighbors are a lot happier to not have a big lump of radio-cobalt
sitting in a pit down the road. They use them on the US Mail in
the Washington, DC area, too.

Mark Zenier Washington State resident

Jim Thompson wrote:

On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:


It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

Wasn't this found to be detrimental to humans many years ago?
Quite how it would affect us second hand, I have no idea.

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

A good idea.

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Typical! Would you stand for local nuclear radiation? It might be used
to stop men from fathering any new children.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

Try buying fresh, local organic foods (if they exist there) and you will
change your mind.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)

Not as dangerous as the loonies that accept change that the chem-co's
want to impose on our foods. GM crops are not natural and the US will
never change the UK mind.

Dave

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:18:16 GMT, Mac wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:21:02 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't a false allegation have to be published to
be considered libel?

--Mac

You are probably correct.

But from the Postal point-of-view, filing a Form 1500 is strictly an
expression that you don't want to receive these materials that you
PERSONALLY find as "sexually oriented advertising".

Like I said, I did this with Fingerhut, who seem to put you on their
list anytime you buy a car. That's been several cars ago, and I've
not received diddley from them since the filing.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:33:27 +0000 (UTC),it is alleged that Dave
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Wasn't this found to be detrimental to humans many years ago?
Quite how it would affect us second hand, I have no idea.

The CDC site on the subject is very clear on the fact that no neutron
exposure is involved, thus the food itself cannot become radioactive.

If the source is contained such that no contamination can occur, it in
theory can't. [and in practise it has been proved thus]
It has been found that some vitamins are affected, but not
significantly.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Hard gamma, I believe, there is some experimentation with x-rays and
electron beams

Typical! Would you stand for local nuclear radiation? It might be used
to stop men from fathering any new children.
I believe that would actually require the men to go through the
irradiation chamber. A process they're likely to notice and thus
resist:-)

Try buying fresh, local organic foods (if they exist there) and you will
change your mind.

Me, I like organic, but if it were proven to be bacteria laden,(as has
not happened) I'd change that opinion :-)

Not as dangerous as the loonies that accept change that the chem-co's
want to impose on our foods. GM crops are not natural and the US will
never change the UK mind.

Hmm, "UK mind"... we're not the borg:-) (despite Tony's best efforts)

I believe from reading other posts in this thread that irradiation is
probably unnecessary in the UK, but the public reaction is the typical

"ooh it had that [radiation|genetic] word in it, so it must be bad,
pass me some more government control"

Rejecting irradiation and GM crops for scientific reasons of 'being
unnecessary' is fine with me, but "I don't like the concept" strikes
me as being rather short sighted.

*Note: The opinions contained are merely my own and do NOT purport to
reflect truth, enlightenment, the way forward, the BBC's schedule, or
an endorsement of any product or service, nor are they hostile :-)



--
Life is like a hot bath. It feels good while you're in it, but the
longer you stay in, the more wrinkled you get.
- Robbert Oustin

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:11:24 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , John Larkin
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:02:58 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


Metaclue: you can do anything you want on usenet.

You can, but you can also get flamed for doing so

And you can be ignored or plonked in return ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:53 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:59:24 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom? And what happens to a sig that's not
generally accepted?

Next, I suppose you'll be lecturing us on "good engineering practice."

John


Nope! That's MY own personal soapbox ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:33:27 +0000 (UTC), Dave
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On 19 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0700, wrote:


It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

Wasn't this found to be detrimental to humans many years ago?
Quite how it would affect us second hand, I have no idea.

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

A good idea.

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Typical! Would you stand for local nuclear radiation? It might be used
to stop men from fathering any new children.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

Try buying fresh, local organic foods (if they exist there) and you will
change your mind.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)

Not as dangerous as the loonies that accept change that the chem-co's
want to impose on our foods. GM crops are not natural and the US will
never change the UK mind.

Dave

Irradiation IS NOT the same as genetically modified. How many times
do I have to say that?

Irradiation at low levels simply kills bacteria inside a sealed
package.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:53 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:59:24 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom? And what happens to a sig that's not
generally accepted?

Next, I suppose you'll be lecturing us on "good engineering practice."

John


Nope! That's MY own personal soapbox ;-)

They'd be much better in a redneck septic NG, I'm sure

as would you

--
geoff

In message , Jim Thompson
writes

Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


Metaclue: you can do anything you want on usenet.

You can, but you can also get flamed for doing so

And you can be ignored or plonked in return ;-)

And learn to snip please ...

--
geoff

In the US, spices are commonly zapped to kill bugs, and some other
foods, I think. They use either gammas from an radioisotope source, or
electrons from an accelerator. Google 'food irradiation' or something.


gah, can't resist

So that's why american food is so crap and bland?

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:53 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom?

The Cabal.

Of which there isn't one.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:32:18 +0100,it is alleged that Mike Dodd
no-address@lo0 spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


In the US, spices are commonly zapped to kill bugs, and some other
foods, I think. They use either gammas from an radioisotope source, or
electrons from an accelerator. Google 'food irradiation' or something.


gah, can't resist

So that's why american food is so crap and bland?

No, the blame for that lies with taco bell, mcdonalds, burger king,
kraft macaroni and "cheese" [how can anyone eat this for pleasure?]
and the fact that anything described as "cheese" probably came out of
a tube labelled "Dow Corning Silicone" (or is indistinguishable from
that which did) :-D

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on
*no* account be allowed to do the job."
- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Chip wrote:

the volume of
snailmail spam we get here has become ludicrous, fully 1/3 of the
recycle bin is junk mail *every* week. I gave up sending it back in
their own prepaid envelopes because they're too stupid to get the
hint.

I find most do, if not all. For the onse that dont, I've always had a
result if the forms are filled in, but not quite finished. Then someone
goes thru them entering data, only to find theyre being jerked about.
They do get peed off enough to do something about it.


NT

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"john jardine" writes:

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

[..]

About 10 years ago, prior to their stock market flotation,
www.isotron.com/home.htm were being hailed by market brokers as the next
license to print money. Isotron's food irradiation technology was going to
be the enabling means for the big food providers to massively reduce wastage
and increase their profits.
Fortunately, just before flotation, the U.K. government took onboard the
advice of it's scientists and made food irradiation illegal. Isotron had to

It's not illegal in the UK (see my other posting, although it
only went to uk.d-i-y).

quickly scramble into other areas.
Hasn't though stopped a number of scumbag operators who irradiate food
declared 'unfit for human consumption' and feed it back into our food chain.
Irradiation is particularly effective when used on rotting seafoods, (eg
Prawns). The usual process is to ship the stuff out to Holland (irradiation
is legal) irradiate it and then bring it back into UK.
Every couple of months a case come before the courts.

If irradiating is illegal, I still can't figure out (as an experiment) why a
punnet of Tesco's or Morrisons' 'fresh Strwaberries' can spend 3 weeks
outside in the garden and yet not rot.

They were packed with a piece of bubble wrap, filled
with slow release sulphur dioxide most likely.

I don't know about strawberries in particular, but irradiation
actually doesn't work on some soft fruits -- a few days later
they are a pile of mush. Cucumbers are an example.

gassing them at packing time will extend their life a fair bit.

NT

wrote:
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid,
with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting
fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no
run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers a
how much beta emission would be needed?
where can it be got from, if anywhere?
is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking


X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT


Thanks you for everyones input, most informative. It looks like its a
no-goer, as I expected. Guess I'll have to stick to threading the
noodles thru the smoke alarm chamber one at a time :/


NT

In message , Jamie
writes
BigWallop wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:05:49 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

snipped

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to put the food in air-tight bags,
then
micro-wave them? Micro-waves will heat the food to the point of killing
the

germans (sorry, germs), then the air-tight bag will stop anything
else
getting in to the food. Sterile enough or what?


Suppose I want a fresh, uncooked, tomato?

Then don't micro-wave it for so long. Most people here are talking
about
"irradiating" the food, when all this really means, in the real world
anyway, is running it through a micro-wave oven for a minute or two. The
only thing that really gets "irradiated" to sterilise it, is fruit fly
larvae. But that a different type of sterilisation all together. :-)

Hmm
i thought there was a difference between X-rays and Micro-Waves (R.F.) ?

What's a few orders of magnitude between friends ?

irradiation units give off X-rays which is a byproduct.
the massive electronics when expose to air generate OZ,(Ozone). when
Ozone hits a little moisture, it creates a little toxic acid that is
very irritating to the skin.
now, think about the moisture that is in the food, you hit it with
irradiation, it generates Ozone. and it goes on.
am i missing something here?
let me see, i think the toxin is nitrous oxide?. i could be wrong there.

Which NG are you posting from ?

--
geoff

"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:21:02 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't a false allegation have to be published to
be considered libel?

Are you reading something "published" now?

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:25:06 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes

Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


Metaclue: you can do anything you want on usenet.

You can, but you can also get flamed for doing so

And you can be ignored or plonked in return ;-)

And learn to snip please ...

GFY ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:25:06 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:53 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:59:24 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom? And what happens to a sig that's not
generally accepted?

Next, I suppose you'll be lecturing us on "good engineering practice."

John


Nope! That's MY own personal soapbox ;-)

They'd be much better in a redneck septic NG, I'm sure

as would you

??? PLONK!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 19 Jun 2005 17:01:46 -0700, wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"john jardine" writes:

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

[..]

About 10 years ago, prior to their stock market flotation,
www.isotron.com/home.htm were being hailed by market brokers as the next
license to print money. Isotron's food irradiation technology was going to
be the enabling means for the big food providers to massively reduce wastage
and increase their profits.
Fortunately, just before flotation, the U.K. government took onboard the
advice of it's scientists and made food irradiation illegal. Isotron had to

It's not illegal in the UK (see my other posting, although it
only went to uk.d-i-y).

quickly scramble into other areas.
Hasn't though stopped a number of scumbag operators who irradiate food
declared 'unfit for human consumption' and feed it back into our food chain.
Irradiation is particularly effective when used on rotting seafoods, (eg
Prawns). The usual process is to ship the stuff out to Holland (irradiation
is legal) irradiate it and then bring it back into UK.
Every couple of months a case come before the courts.

If irradiating is illegal, I still can't figure out (as an experiment) why a
punnet of Tesco's or Morrisons' 'fresh Strwaberries' can spend 3 weeks
outside in the garden and yet not rot.

They were packed with a piece of bubble wrap, filled
with slow release sulphur dioxide most likely.

I don't know about strawberries in particular, but irradiation
actually doesn't work on some soft fruits -- a few days later
they are a pile of mush. Cucumbers are an example.

gassing them at packing time will extend their life a fair bit.

NT

With Sulfur Dioxide, forming Sodium Bisulfite, of which I am very
allergic... ba-a-a-ad headaches. Asthmatics can die from exposure to
Sodium Bisulfite, that's why it is prohibited from salad bars in the
US.

Wines have some naturally, but I only seem to react to the additive
variety.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:25:06 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:53 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:59:24 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom? And what happens to a sig that's not
generally accepted?

Next, I suppose you'll be lecturing us on "good engineering practice."

John


Nope! That's MY own personal soapbox ;-)

They'd be much better in a redneck septic NG, I'm sure

as would you

??? PLONK!

Good - **** off

redneck

--
geoff

Jim Thompson wrote:

[...]

With Sulfur Dioxide, forming Sodium Bisulfite, of which I am very
allergic... ba-a-a-ad headaches. Asthmatics can die from exposure to
Sodium Bisulfite, that's why it is prohibited from salad bars in the
US.

Wines have some naturally, but I only seem to react to the additive
variety.

...Jim Thompson

Isn't it the other way round? I thought Sodium Bisulfite makes Sulfur
Dioxide when added to water. And it is common in commercial wines. Here's
a brief description:

Sodium bisulfite

Chemical Formula: NaHSO3

Synonyms

Monosodium sulfite, Sodium hydrogen sulfite, Sodium sulhydrate, Sulfurous
acid, sodium salt

Description

Clear or milky white liquid with a sulfurous odor.

Uses

Sodium bisulfite is used in almost all commercial wines, to prevent
oxidation and preserve flavor. Sodium bisulfite releases sulfur dioxide
gas when added to water or products containing water. The sulfur dioxide
kills yeasts, fungi, and bacteria in the grape juice before fermentation.

When the sulfur dioxide levels have subsided (about 24 hours), fresh
yeast is added for fermentation. Sodium bisulfite (usually with an acid
like citric acid to make it produce gas faster) is used to sterilize
winemaking equipment.

It is later added to bottled wine to prevent oxidation (which makes
vinegar), and to protect the color of the wine from oxidation, which
causes browning. The sulfur dioxide displaces oxygen in the bottle and
dissolved in the wine. Oxidized wine can turn orange or brown, and taste
like raisins or cough syrup.

In fruit canning, sodium bisulfite is used to prevent browning (caused by
oxidation) and to kill microbes.

http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/sodium_bisulfite.html

Of course, the wines in your price class wouldn't dare have microbes

Mike Monett

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
I don't know about strawberries in particular, but irradiation
actually doesn't work on some soft fruits -- a few days later
they are a pile of mush. Cucumbers are an example.

gassing them at packing time will extend their life a fair bit.

NT

With Sulfur Dioxide,

Sulphur dioxide

forming Sodium Bisulfite,

bisulphate

of which I am very
allergic... ba-a-a-ad headaches. Asthmatics can die from exposure to
Sodium Bisulfite,

Just do it

m'kay ?




--
geoff

wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:
Thanks you for everyones input, most informative. It looks like its a
no-goer, as I expected. Guess I'll have to stick to threading the
noodles thru the smoke alarm chamber one at a time :/


NT

(Or, if you've guests coming, I'll lend you one of my glow-in-the-dark WW2
military radios. Guaranteed to give a scary scream on the Geiger counter

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not
have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta
emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries,
and reduce bacterial contamination....

Isotron PLC do electron beam irradiation. It is used by one cosmetics
manufacturer who likes to claim, truthfully if somewhat misleadingly, that
the cosmetics contain no preservatives. Of course, many of them quickly go
rancid after being opened, but they keep well on the shelves and it all
helps sales. Apparently, the company prefers electron beam as being
'greener' than gamma irradiation in that it has no residue to dipose of
later.

The dose of radiation required depends on the initial bioburden and the
level of confidence that you want to have that the product is sterile. For
medical devices the usual dose is 25-35kGy. That is, however, considerably
more than most other applications require.

Colin Bignell

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:12:08 -0400, Mike Monett wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

[...]

With Sulfur Dioxide, forming Sodium Bisulfite, of which I am very
allergic... ba-a-a-ad headaches. Asthmatics can die from exposure to
Sodium Bisulfite, that's why it is prohibited from salad bars in the
US.

Wines have some naturally, but I only seem to react to the additive
variety.

...Jim Thompson

Isn't it the other way round? I thought Sodium Bisulfite makes Sulfur
Dioxide when added to water. And it is common in commercial wines. Here's
a brief description:

Sodium bisulfite

Chemical Formula: NaHSO3

Synonyms

Monosodium sulfite, Sodium hydrogen sulfite, Sodium sulhydrate, Sulfurous
acid, sodium salt

Description

Clear or milky white liquid with a sulfurous odor.

Uses

Sodium bisulfite is used in almost all commercial wines, to prevent
oxidation and preserve flavor. Sodium bisulfite releases sulfur dioxide
gas when added to water or products containing water. The sulfur dioxide
kills yeasts, fungi, and bacteria in the grape juice before fermentation.

When the sulfur dioxide levels have subsided (about 24 hours), fresh
yeast is added for fermentation. Sodium bisulfite (usually with an acid
like citric acid to make it produce gas faster) is used to sterilize
winemaking equipment.

It is later added to bottled wine to prevent oxidation (which makes
vinegar), and to protect the color of the wine from oxidation, which
causes browning. The sulfur dioxide displaces oxygen in the bottle and
dissolved in the wine. Oxidized wine can turn orange or brown, and taste
like raisins or cough syrup.

In fruit canning, sodium bisulfite is used to prevent browning (caused by
oxidation) and to kill microbes.

http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/sodium_bisulfite.html

Of course, the wines in your price class wouldn't dare have microbes

Mike Monett


I'm no chemist, hated the course so much that, at the end of Freshman
year, we went out to the middle of Harvard Bridge and dumped our
chemistry books into the Charles ;-)

Regret it to this day. Those notes were far better than any chemistry
book I've tried to use to aid me thru some electro-chemistry issues
:-(

However, SO2 is a _gas_, and is used to preserve fruit, like dried
raisins, prunes and apricots.

My understanding is that this forms NaHSO3 on the surface of the
fruit.

NaHSO3 is added to wines, shows on every label.

Maybe a chemistry major will jump in here and elucidate us.

I'll ask my daughter in the morning if she knows anything about it
(she runs the Phoenix water labs), but bisulfite might not be in her
repertoire.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Dave wrote:
-------------

Typical! Would you stand for local nuclear radiation? It might be used
to stop men from fathering any new children.


---------------------


Dave

You mean those radioactive injections they used to diagnose my heart might
make me sterile - and I thought the doctors were on my side.

Another Dave

BigWallop wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:05:49 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


snipped

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to put the food in air-tight bags, then
micro-wave them? Micro-waves will heat the food to the point of killing

the

germans (sorry, germs), then the air-tight bag will stop anything else
getting in to the food. Sterile enough or what?


Suppose I want a fresh, uncooked, tomato?


Then don't micro-wave it for so long. Most people here are talking about
"irradiating" the food, when all this really means, in the real world
anyway, is running it through a micro-wave oven for a minute or two. The
only thing that really gets "irradiated" to sterilise it, is fruit fly
larvae. But that a different type of sterilisation all together. :-)


Hmm
i thought there was a difference between X-rays and Micro-Waves (R.F.) ?
irradiation units give off X-rays which is a byproduct.
the massive electronics when expose to air generate OZ,(Ozone). when
Ozone hits a little moisture, it creates a little toxic acid that is
very irritating to the skin.
now, think about the moisture that is in the food, you hit it with
irradiation, it generates Ozone. and it goes on.
am i missing something here?
let me see, i think the toxin is nitrous oxide?. i could be wrong there.

On 19 Jun 2005 14:49:22 -0700, wrote:

"New Scientist" is a British based popular science weekly. They do get
the science right, but insist of presenting it in an "entertaining"
way.

Their politics isn't right wing enough for the likes of John Larkin and
Jim Thompson, but the "New Scientist" is a British (and Australian)
based weekly - moving far enough to the right to pick up the right-wing
American market would alienate most of their domestic buyers (like me).

For pro-Dubbya propagada you want something title "Old Fundamentalist".

---------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Why the hell should a science magazine have politics?

John

On 19 Jun 2005 14:39:27 -0700, wrote:

The claim that irradiation doesn't change the taste of the food may be
a bit optimistic.

IIRR enough irradiation to kill all the bugs was enough to give a
detectable change in flavour, but I can't remember where I saw that
particular claim.

-----------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Some other mathods of preserving food also are known to change the
flavor. Pickling, smoking, canning, jerking, curing, and grinding up
and mixing with nitrites come to mind.

John

Jim Thompson wrote:

[...]

I'm no chemist, hated the course so much that, at the end of Freshman
year, we went out to the middle of Harvard Bridge and dumped our
chemistry books into the Charles ;-)

Regret it to this day. Those notes were far better than any chemistry
book I've tried to use to aid me thru some electro-chemistry issues
:-(

Too bad. Now, as you continue your studies of fine wines, you are doomed
to spend the rest of your days in trial and error experiments.

Such a life

However, SO2 is a _gas_, and is used to preserve fruit, like dried
raisins, prunes and apricots.

My understanding is that this forms NaHSO3 on the surface of the
fruit.

Wouldn't the fruit have to supply NaOH, sodium hydroxide? That would
probably discourage some germs by itself

NaHSO3 is added to wines, shows on every label.

Maybe a chemistry major will jump in here and elucidate us.

I'll ask my daughter in the morning if she knows anything about it
(she runs the Phoenix water labs), but bisulfite might not be in her
repertoire.

...Jim Thompson

Maybe one of her employees might know.

Mike Monett

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:38:22 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:53 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Well his .sig is twice as long as is generally accepted,

Generally accepted by whom?

The Cabal.

Of which there isn't one.


Exactly.

John

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:11:24 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , John Larkin
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:02:58 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:02:26 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jim Thompson
writes
X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it
is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for
the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.


Thanks, NT

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals.
Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the
loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food
preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !

And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson
Clue ...

the name goes below it


Metaclue: you can do anything you want on usenet.

You can, but you can also get flamed for doing so

And your point is...?

John

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:44:20 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:21:02 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't a false allegation have to be published to
be considered libel?

Are you reading something "published" now?

Well, that is an excellent question. Since I am not a lawyer, I won't try
to answer it.

But reading back through this thread, I don't see it as an allegation. Do
you think the AARP could or would bring suit as a result of this thread?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to. ;-)

--Mac

"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:44:20 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:21:02 -0700, Richard Henry wrote:


"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and
coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't
stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented
advertising) against AARP".

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the
libel.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't a false allegation have to be published
to
be considered libel?

Are you reading something "published" now?

Well, that is an excellent question. Since I am not a lawyer, I won't try
to answer it.

But reading back through this thread, I don't see it as an allegation. Do
you think the AARP could or would bring suit as a result of this thread?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to. ;-)

Mr. Thompson threatened to file a USPS document claiming that the AARP
material is "sexually oriented advertising". Unless he genuinely holds that
opinion of the AARP material, he would be filing a false report. (BTW, I'm
not sure whether USPS forms are considered to be government documents
anymore.) I am not in a position to determine AARP's opinion of such a
filing.

As for the AARP, I want to know where they get their information. My first
piece of AARP advertising (unwanted, but not sexually oriented in the least,
in my opinion) arrived promptly on my 50th birthday.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
...

Irradiation IS NOT the same as genetically modified. How many times
do I have to say that?

Irradiation at low levels simply kills bacteria inside a sealed
package.


The situation is a little bit more complicated than that. Ionizing
radiation (IE: UV, X-ray, gamma, nuclear radiation) has enough energy
to
break chemical bonds, displace atoms, etc.

Radiation kills bacteria by virtue of breaking chemical bonds that make
up
the bacteria's DNA. If the damage is sufficient the bacteria will not
be
able to repair itself, nor will it be able to continue functioning, so
it
will inevitably die.

Ionizing radiation however is not tremendously descriminating. That
is, the
radiation will also damage the DNA of the food you are irradiating.
The
radiation will break chemical bonds, leaving "dangling bonds" in it's
wake
which then look around for other atoms to bond with. Ultimately the
chemical structure of the food can be slightly modified if it is
irradiated
sufficiently to kill all of the germs on/in it.

This gives rise to at least a theoretical hazard. What if some of the
hydrocarbon compounds that compose your food get modified into some
other
form which is either somehow toxic or perhaps carcinogenic? Gasoline
is a
hydrocarbon compound substance just like the food you eat, but that
doesn't
mean it is safe to drink gasoline.

So far as I am aware there has been no credible experimental evidence
that
shows irradiated food is carcinogenic or otherwise hazardous for human
consumption. The problem is, no matter how hard anyone tries you
cannot
really prove that the food isn't carcinogenic and won't result in
increased
risk of cancer many years in the future.

In my opinion a risk versus benefit judgement needs to be made. The
benefits of irradiating food are obvious and demonstrated, the food
lasts
much longer in storage while the consumer has less chance of suffering
from
food poisening. The risk has so far not been demonstrated (at least to
the
best of my knowledge), but in theory one may conceivably exist so some
provision needs to be taken to consider it.

In my personal opinion the known benefits outweigh the possibility of
any
future risk, therefore we should not hesitate to use it. This is
especially
true in third world countries where starvation/malnutrition and food
poisening are very real and tangible risks that regularly kill (or is a
complicating factor in killing) large quantities of people. There are
many
things a person can and should be worried about in today's world, but I
wouldn't personally put irradiated or even genetically modified foods
anywhere near the top of that list. The economic and sociological
concerns
of peak oil are far greater and represent a much more imminent and
probable
risk:

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/us/NETL/OilPeaking.pdf

Why the hell should a science magazine have politics?

Suggesting that the evidences states that global warming may actually be
happening is apparently political.

Christian.

raden wrote:
In message , Jim Thompson
writes

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie
greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)


Should fit in well with Eco-terrorists like G ****** Bush then

... and people who don't understand sig separators !


And to WHAT are you referring? ------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My sig separator seems to be working perfectly with other responders.

...Jim Thompson

Clue ...

the name goes below it


Does not. Oh Clueless One, I leave my name only (without the sig
stuff) behind to identify that it was I doing the talking. How many
posts do you see where you have no clue as to who said what?

Mine get nested, and if correctly posted and properly snipped it's
usually obvious

And a 3 line sig is normally what's reasonable

m'kay ?


This must be true. years back I did a postgrad information systems
management paper (because I had to). Our lecturer proudly informed us
that all IT theorems had 3 parts, so 3 is clearly a mystical IT number.
Hence it must be the cosmically ordained limit for signature length

Cheers
Terry
He who must be obeyed
And cannot count to three successfully.