Sorry the subject lines a bit cryptic, but I'd like the brains truss to
tell me what's going on here.

My plastic water bottle, which is refilled regularly with tap water, was
suffering a bit od green algae, so I put some of the above crystals in, and
a bout 1/3 filled with hot tap water, put the cap on and gavre it a shake,
and it foamed up like Andrews.

I expected a pressure buildup, and was ready to ease the cap, but the
opposite happened, and the bottle was squashed nearly flat by air pressure,
and developed a permanent dimple in the bottom, so some serious vacuum was
being formed.

But how? - it's alleged to have 15-30% oxygen based bleaching agent, and
5% non-ionic surfactants, 5% anionic surfactants,(whatever all those are)

It does a good job on the algae.

mike

"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
Sorry the subject lines a bit cryptic, but I'd like the brains truss to
tell me what's going on here.

My plastic water bottle, which is refilled regularly with tap water, was
suffering a bit od green algae, so I put some of the above crystals in,
and
a bout 1/3 filled with hot tap water, put the cap on and gavre it a shake,
and it foamed up like Andrews.

I expected a pressure buildup, and was ready to ease the cap, but the
opposite happened, and the bottle was squashed nearly flat by air
pressure,
and developed a permanent dimple in the bottom, so some serious vacuum was
being formed.

But how? - it's alleged to have 15-30% oxygen based bleaching agent, and
5% non-ionic surfactants, 5% anionic surfactants,(whatever all those
are)

It does a good job on the algae.

mike

Hi Mike.
Nothing to do with Clit Bang.
The hot air/steam cooled down and caused the vacuum.
Baz

"Baz" wrote in
:


Hi Mike.
Nothing to do with Clit Bang.
The hot air/steam cooled down and caused the vacuum.
Baz

I don't think so.

I just ran a test with hot water only, and also with washing up liquid to
give a foam (which I've done many times before with the same bottle.

The only effect is a slight increase in pressure as the air inside is
heated by the shake with hot liquid.

The cillit bang effect (prolly other "oxy" cleaners would be similar) was
instant and really dramatic, the bottle was virtually flattened.

mike

On 12 Jun 2005 21:34:41 GMT, mike ring
wrote:

[snippage]

The cillit bang effect (prolly other "oxy" cleaners would be similar) was
instant and really dramatic, the bottle was virtually flattened.

I am not certain of the chemistry these type of compounds used, but is
it at all possible that the air is being reduced in volume by 20%?
That would tend to indicate that the cleaner as well as supplying its
own oxygen is somehow catalyzing a reaction using the oxygen in the
air too.

I can't find any reference to any reaction that would cause that, as
the chemical involved is sodium percarbonate which should *produce*
oxygen as you said, rather than taking it up. But it's possible it's
starting a reaction which then consumes all the oxygen including that
which was there to begin with.

My chemistry's a little rusty due to 10 years lack of use :-)



--
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of life
we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created
life in our own image." - Stephen Hawking

On 12 Jun 2005 19:04:54 GMT, mike ring
wrote:

Sorry the subject lines a bit cryptic, but I'd like the brains truss to
tell me what's going on here.

My plastic water bottle, which is refilled regularly with tap water, was
suffering a bit od green algae, so I put some of the above crystals in, and
a bout 1/3 filled with hot tap water, put the cap on and gavre it a shake,
and it foamed up like Andrews.

I expected a pressure buildup, and was ready to ease the cap, but the
opposite happened, and the bottle was squashed nearly flat by air pressure,
and developed a permanent dimple in the bottom, so some serious vacuum was
being formed.

But how? - it's alleged to have 15-30% oxygen based bleaching agent, and
5% non-ionic surfactants, 5% anionic surfactants,(whatever all those are)

It does a good job on the algae.

I'm not too sure about the variations of Cillit Bang, but I have a
bottle of CB Universal Degreaser, which despite it's silly name does
seem to work (on the inch-thick-of-grease leccy hob) . However, there
is a caveat on this particular variation that it isn't suitable for
direct food contact surfaces, which I assume to include the insides of
water bottles.

Perhaps the crystalline stuff IS suitable for food-contact surfaces,
but it is worth checking out.

Regarding the contraction effect, I'm no chemist (it's the subject I
failed at O level!), but perhaps the hot water was cooled quickly by
the CB thereby producing a partial vacuum. Have you tried reinstating
the plastic bottle by pouring in hot water and leaving the cap off
until the water cools?

--
Frank Erskine

Chipmunk wrote in
:


I am not certain of the chemistry these type of compounds used, but is
it at all possible that the air is being reduced in volume by 20%?
That would tend to indicate that the cleaner as well as supplying its
own oxygen is somehow catalyzing a reaction using the oxygen in the
air too.

I can't find any reference to any reaction that would cause that, as
the chemical involved is sodium percarbonate which should *produce*
oxygen as you said, rather than taking it up. But it's possible it's
starting a reaction which then consumes all the oxygen including that
which was there to begin with.

My chemistry's a little rusty due to 10 years lack of use :-)

Mine too, but I think the effect is much more dramatic than the removal of
just oxygen could do; that shaould only drop the pressure by 20% or so.

This looked like a pretty hard vacuum, I couldn't squash it any flatter,
and it felt rock hard. The bottle was only about 1/3 full so a lot of air
had disappeared!

mike

mike ring wrote in
Chipmunk wrote in
:


I can't find any reference to any reaction that would cause that, as
the chemical involved is sodium percarbonate which should *produce*
oxygen as you said, rather than taking it up. But it's possible it's
starting a reaction which then consumes all the oxygen including that
which was there to begin with.

My chemistry's a little rusty due to 10 years lack of use :-)

Mine too, but I think the effect is much more dramatic than the
removal of just oxygen could do; that shaould only drop the pressure
by 20% or so.

This looked like a pretty hard vacuum, I couldn't squash it any
flatter, and it felt rock hard. The bottle was only about 1/3 full so
a lot of air had disappeared!

I just tried it with cillit bang squirt, and just got a bit of overpressure
on shaking, due to heatig the air

On 13 Jun 2005 16:56:08 GMT, mike ring
wrote:

This looked like a pretty hard vacuum, I couldn't squash it any
flatter, and it felt rock hard. The bottle was only about 1/3 full so
a lot of air had disappeared!

Is it possible that the oxygen is displacing the air, thus leaving the
entire 'air' space in the bottle containing only oxygen? This would
then react with things causing the vacuum, that's about all I can
think of, other than the possibility of the lid acting as a 1 way
valve of some kind.



--
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of life
we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created
life in our own image." - Stephen Hawking

"mike ring" wrote in message
. 1.4...
Sorry the subject lines a bit cryptic, but I'd like the brains truss to
tell me what's going on here.

My plastic water bottle, which is refilled regularly with tap water, was
suffering a bit od green algae, so I put some of the above crystals in,
and
a bout 1/3 filled with hot tap water, put the cap on and gavre it a shake,
and it foamed up like Andrews.

I expected a pressure buildup, and was ready to ease the cap, but the
opposite happened, and the bottle was squashed nearly flat by air
pressure,
and developed a permanent dimple in the bottom, so some serious vacuum was
being formed.

But how? - it's alleged to have 15-30% oxygen based bleaching agent, and
5% non-ionic surfactants, 5% anionic surfactants,(whatever all those
are)

It does a good job on the algae.

mike

Hi Mike.
Nothing to do with Clit Bang.
The hot air/steam cooled down and caused the vacuum.
Baz

mike ring wrote:
Sorry the subject lines a bit cryptic, but I'd like the brains truss to
tell me what's going on here.

My plastic water bottle, which is refilled regularly with tap water, was
suffering a bit od green algae, so I put some of the above crystals in, and
a bout 1/3 filled with hot tap water, put the cap on and gavre it a shake,
and it foamed up like Andrews.

I expected a pressure buildup, and was ready to ease the cap, but the
opposite happened, and the bottle was squashed nearly flat by air pressure,
and developed a permanent dimple in the bottom, so some serious vacuum was
being formed.

But how? - it's alleged to have 15-30% oxygen based bleaching agent, and
5% non-ionic surfactants, 5% anionic surfactants,(whatever all those are)

It does a good job on the algae.

mike


FWIW I clean water bottles and Thermos flasks with denture cleaning tablets.

Richard (with own teeth - still)

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:56:57 UTC, "Baz" wrote:

Nothing to do with Clit Bang.
The hot air/steam cooled down and caused the vacuum.

It was pointed out earlier in the thread...the experiment was repeated,
but omitting the Cillit Bang. The vacuum did not occur (apart from the
slight effect you mention).

Sp, it isn't as simple as that.

Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:56:57 UTC, "Baz" wrote:

Nothing to do with Clit Bang.
The hot air/steam cooled down and caused the vacuum.

It was pointed out earlier in the thread...the experiment was repeated,
but omitting the Cillit Bang. The vacuum did not occur (apart from the
slight effect you mention).

Sp, it isn't as simple as that.

Are we sure it was completely repeated, including whatever Mike had done
immediately beforehand?

For example, might he have first tried to wash the algae away with plain
hot water before trying again with CB? If he did, that would have
replaced some of the air in the bottle by steam before he added the CB
and water... and that would explain what happened next.

But if he only tried to repeat the CB part, it wouldn't be the same.

Mike?


--
Ian White