What's this about having to fit a bypass valve to comply with building regs?
Can't I just leave one rad without TRVs or isn't that the same?

Regardless I thought I would fit it at the 'manifold' end which is fed by a
pair of 28mm pipes but is some way remote from the boiler. Is this a
suitable position, or would it be better closer to the boiler itself?

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
What's this about having to fit a bypass valve to comply with building
regs?
Can't I just leave one rad without TRVs or isn't that the same?

You are not allowed to fit a normal bypass valve.
But IF your system requires a bypass it must be an automatic bypass valve.

If you have a rad without a TRV and can guarantee you won't turn it off then
you should be fine.

That said, saying leaving just one rad sounds like you only have one heating
zone which doesn't meet the building regs except in small flats. You need
at least two and each would need a rad without a TRV.

In article ,
"Mike" writes:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
What's this about having to fit a bypass valve to comply with building
regs?
Can't I just leave one rad without TRVs or isn't that the same?

You are not allowed to fit a normal bypass valve.
But IF your system requires a bypass it must be an automatic bypass valve.

If you have a rad without a TRV and can guarantee you won't turn it off then
you should be fine.

It's not just no TRV, it mustn't have any hand-operated valve.
This would normally be in the room with the thermostat, as the
roomstat then provides the heating control.

That said, saying leaving just one rad sounds like you only have one heating
zone which doesn't meet the building regs except in small flats. You need
at least two

This just isn't true. I've looked round a number of new houses
recently for a friend (3 and 4 bedroom), and I've never seen
one with more than one heating zone. Zoning the heating is
something really rather restricted to committed DIYers.

and each would need a rad without a TRV.

Yes, and you must ensure a water path remains after the call
for heat is gone during the pump run-on period.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"Mike" writes:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
What's this about having to fit a bypass valve to comply with building
regs?
Can't I just leave one rad without TRVs or isn't that the same?

depends on configuration of your system - see below

....
That said, saying leaving just one rad sounds like you only have one
heating
zone which doesn't meet the building regs except in small flats. You
need at least two

reference?

This just isn't true. I've looked round a number of new houses
recently for a friend (3 and 4 bedroom), and I've never seen
one with more than one heating zone. Zoning the heating is
something really rather restricted to committed DIYers.

IIRC it's required for larger houses but I can't remember the size threshold
or what reg it's in (part L, I'd guess)


and each would need a rad without a TRV.

Yes, and you must ensure a water path remains after the call
for heat is gone during the pump run-on period.

thus a bypass is needed for an S-plan system but not Y-plan (where the 3-way
mid-position valve provides a path via the HW cylinder)

John Stumbles wrote:

thus a bypass is needed for an S-plan system but not Y-plan (where the 3-way
mid-position valve provides a path via the HW cylinder)

Could you not still get into a problem situation though with Y plan?

If there was no call for heat from the cylinder stat, but there was from
the room stat, the 3 port valve would have switched to the heating only
position and eliminated the path through the cylinder. Meanwhile if
there were TRVs on all rads (including the one in the room with the
stat), then they could all close off but leaving the main stat calling
for heat and no path through the CH circuit.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
John Stumbles wrote:

thus a bypass is needed for an S-plan system but not Y-plan (where the
3-way
mid-position valve provides a path via the HW cylinder)

Could you not still get into a problem situation though with Y plan?

If there was no call for heat from the cylinder stat, but there was from
the room stat, the 3 port valve would have switched to the heating only
position and eliminated the path through the cylinder. Meanwhile if
there were TRVs on all rads (including the one in the room with the
stat), then they could all close off but leaving the main stat calling
for heat and no path through the CH circuit.

Yep you are right



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Ah, yes, I read about the multi-zoning as well but I forgot about that.

As a committed diy-er all my previous systems were multi-zone but as the
first almost all TRV system I thought why bother. It's easy to incorporate
fortunately. I think the property will count as big.

So - provided my system design and controls ensure a water path at all times
that the boiler is firing, which I would have done anyway without really
thinking it was anything special, I don't need a bypass, automatic or
otherwise?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jeff wrote:

Ah, yes, I read about the multi-zoning as well but I forgot about
that.

As a committed diy-er all my previous systems were multi-zone but as
the first almost all TRV system I thought why bother. It's easy to
incorporate fortunately. I think the property will count as big.

So - provided my system design and controls ensure a water path at
all times that the boiler is firing, which I would have done anyway
without really thinking it was anything special, I don't need a
bypass, automatic or otherwise?

Not quite! You need a water path at all times when the *pump* is running -
including any over-run period *after* the boiler stops firing - by which
time all zone valves may be closed!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

IIRC it's required for larger houses but I can't remember the size
threshold
or what reg it's in (part L, I'd guess)

As I understand it, separately timed zones are suggested for floor areas
exceeding 150m2. However, temperature control for separate living and
sleeping areas is always required (usually using TRVs or subzoning) unless
the flat is open plan and such control would be pointless.

Christian.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jeff wrote:

Ah, yes, I read about the multi-zoning as well but I forgot about
that.

As a committed diy-er all my previous systems were multi-zone but as
the first almost all TRV system I thought why bother. It's easy to
incorporate fortunately. I think the property will count as big.

So - provided my system design and controls ensure a water path at
all times that the boiler is firing, which I would have done anyway
without really thinking it was anything special, I don't need a
bypass, automatic or otherwise?

Not quite! You need a water path at all
times when the *pump* is running -
including any over-run period *after* the
boiler stops firing - by which
time all zone valves may be closed!

Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not recommended and should
be avoided. These raise the return temperature reducing efficiency. Try
Grundfoss Alpha pumps.



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Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not recommended and
should
be avoided. These raise the return temperature reducing efficiency. Try
Grundfoss Alpha pumps.

Of course, many condensing boilers have internal pumps, so this advice can't
be followed.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

Having by-pass valves with condensing
boilers is not recommended and
should be avoided. These raise the return
temperature reducing efficiency. Try
Grundfoss Alpha pumps.

Of course, many condensing boilers have
internal pumps, so this advice can't
be followed.

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways to
get around this. A heat bank/thermal store. Replace the internal pump with
a Grundfos Alpha. Install an intermediate buffer store - a 40 litre cylinder
heated by the boiler, with a fixed speed pump between boiler and pump and
Grundfoss Alpha between the rads and buffer cylinder, etc, etc.

The DIYers know all the answers don't they.



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It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways to
get around this. A heat bank/thermal store. Replace the internal pump
with
a Grundfos Alpha. Install an intermediate buffer store - a 40 litre
cylinder
heated by the boiler, with a fixed speed pump between boiler and pump and
Grundfoss Alpha between the rads and buffer cylinder, etc, etc.

The DIYers know all the answers don't they.

All these solutions are a bit OTT when you could just install the
manufacturer's recommended auto bypass valve, assuming they haven't already
incorporated one inside the case.

Are you seriously recommending:

a) Invalidating the warranty by replacing the internal pump.
b) Spending hundreds of pounds (and lots of space) on completely unnecessary
intermediate thermal transfer when you could just set the auto bypass high
and not having it pass unless unnecessary?

You're really quite barking.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways
to
get around this. A heat bank/thermal store. Replace the internal pump
with
a Grundfos Alpha. Install an intermediate buffer store - a 40 litre
cylinder
heated by the boiler, with a fixed speed pump between boiler and pump
and
Grundfoss Alpha between the rads and buffer cylinder, etc, etc.

The DIYers know all the answers don't they.

All these solutions are a bit OTT when you
could just install the manufacturer's
recommended auto bypass valve, assuming
they haven't already incorporated one inside the case.

By-pass valves defeat the purpose of a condensing boiler, you have been told
that

Are you seriously recommending:

a) Invalidating the warranty by replacing
the internal pump.

See makers first.

b) Spending hundreds of pounds (and
lots of space) on completely unnecessary
intermediate thermal transfer when you
could just set the auto bypass high
and not having it pass unless unnecessary?

The intermediate also prevents boiler cycling too. Hundreds of pounds? For
a small cylinder and stat?

You're really quite barking.

You haven't a clue.



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Yes, it began to sound a bit convoluted to me as well.

I've got my eye on the Grundfoss Alpha already, along with a Panda heat bank
and a condensing oil boiler (open to suggestions) - there's no gas here.
I've mentally returned the automatic by-pass valve for credit/adjustment for
motorised valves.

Call me old fashioned, I understand the four-tapping arrangement with
dedicated feed and vent pipe best, with 2-port valves for control. I prefer
to fit my own pump.

But the bit I don't understand is the pump over-run. I know what it does,
but there's no provision for that with the standard S-plan, is there? I've
always wired the boiler and pump in parallel. I guess for boilers that need
it there must be a special wiring arrangement from the boiler ?





"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

All these solutions are a bit OTT when you could just install the
manufacturer's recommended auto bypass valve, assuming they haven't
already
incorporated one inside the case.

Are you seriously recommending:

a) Invalidating the warranty by replacing the internal pump.
b) Spending hundreds of pounds (and lots of space) on completely
unnecessary
intermediate thermal transfer when you could just set the auto bypass high
and not having it pass unless unnecessary?

You're really quite barking.

Christian.

"Andrew Gabriel" andrew@a17 wrote in message
.. .

That said, saying leaving just one rad sounds like you only have one
heating
zone which doesn't meet the building regs except in small flats. You
need
at least two

This just isn't true. I've looked round a number of new houses
recently for a friend (3 and 4 bedroom), and I've never seen
one with more than one heating zone.

From the building regs part L :

"1.39 In most dwellings one timing zone divided into two temperature control
sub-zones would be appropriate. However in single-storey open-plan flats and
bed-sitters, for example, sub-zoning of temperature control could be
inappropriate. Reasonable provision in the case of large dwellings of more
than 150m2 floor area, would be for no zone to have an area exceeding 150m2
and the operation of the heating to be separately timed in each zone."

Mind you most new houses are so small they probably don't count as large
dwellings so you're probably right.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jeff wrote:

Ah, yes, I read about the multi-zoning as well but I forgot about
that.

As a committed diy-er all my previous systems were multi-zone but as
the first almost all TRV system I thought why bother. It's easy to
incorporate fortunately. I think the property will count as big.

So - provided my system design and controls ensure a water path at
all times that the boiler is firing, which I would have done anyway
without really thinking it was anything special, I don't need a
bypass, automatic or otherwise?

Not quite! You need a water path at all times when the *pump* is running -
including any over-run period *after* the boiler stops firing - by which
time all zone valves may be closed!

Or an electronic sensing pump such as the Grundfos Alpha

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
...
That said, saying leaving just one rad sounds like you only have one
heating
zone which doesn't meet the building regs except in small flats. You
need at least two

reference?


Building regs part L - see other post

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not recommended and
should
be avoided. These raise the return temperature reducing efficiency. Try
Grundfoss Alpha pumps.

Of course, many condensing boilers have internal pumps, so this advice
can't
be followed.

If they have internal pumps, wouldn't they also have internal bypass if
needed ?

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Yes, it began to sound a bit convoluted to me as well.

But the bit I don't understand is the pump over-run. I know what it does,
but there's no provision for that with the standard S-plan, is there?
I've
always wired the boiler and pump in parallel. I guess for boilers that
need
it there must be a special wiring arrangement from the boiler ?

You fit a pipe-stat somewhere convenient and arrange the wiring to keep the
pump going until the water cools down a bit.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
IIRC it's required for larger houses but I can't remember the size
threshold
or what reg it's in (part L, I'd guess)

As I understand it, separately timed zones are suggested for floor areas
exceeding 150m2. However, temperature control for separate living and
sleeping areas is always required (usually using TRVs or subzoning) unless
the flat is open plan and such control would be pointless.

True - part L 1.38

I also notice many don't notice the independently timed requirement of part
1.39 and fit simple roomstats in the other zones when full timed controllers
are legally required.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mike wrote:


Not quite! You need a water path at all times when the *pump* is
running - including any over-run period *after* the boiler stops
firing - by which time all zone valves may be closed!

Or an electronic sensing pump such as the Grundfos Alpha

I don't see how that helps! It's the *boiler* which needs the flow to keep
going after it stops firing in order to carry the residual heat away and
prevent the over-heat cutout from tripping. No amount of electronic sensing
can maintain the flow if there ain't anywhere for it to go!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jeff wrote:


But the bit I don't understand is the pump over-run. I know what it
does, but there's no provision for that with the standard S-plan, is
there? I've always wired the boiler and pump in parallel. I guess
for boilers that need it there must be a special wiring arrangement
from the boiler ?

When a boiler needs pump over-run, you *don't* wire them in parallel. The
rooms stats and zone valve simply control the boiler, and the boiler
controls the pump. The boiler has dedicated terminals for pump connection.
The boiler also needs a permanent live as well as a switched live - so that
it can run the pump when required even when it isn't firing. [A bit like an
electric radiator fan on a car, which continues to run for a bit after you
switch the engine off].
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
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In article ,
"Mike" writes:

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not recommended and
should
be avoided. These raise the return temperature reducing efficiency. Try
Grundfoss Alpha pumps.

Of course, many condensing boilers have internal pumps, so this advice can't
be followed.

If they have internal pumps, wouldn't they also have internal bypass if
needed ?

Well, Keston doesn't, and I don't recall it on others I considered
at the time. An internal bypass would have difficulty meeting the
requirements for minimum pipe run length before the bypass, which
several boilers have (needs to be enough volume of water to
absorb the heat produced before the burner shuts off and cools).

I designed my system to use a mid position valve between the two
heating zones (and a radiator in each zone is the bypass with no
TRV or hand control), so there is no shut-off position and always
a water flow path.

Some (not Keston) have an extra electrical output for connecting
to an additional pump, which might be useful for detecting pump
run-on.

Another related issue... Many boilers have frost detection built
in, and can fire up by themselves when there's no call for heat,
and again will need a flow path. Also, some boilers will run the
pump for a short time if it hasn't been used for 24 hours to stop
the rotor from sticking.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Doctor Evil wrote:

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways to

Given that the bypass will usually only come into play when the pump is
on overrun and there is no call for heat from any stat, so the boiler
will be off. So who cares?


--
Cheers,

John.

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Doctor Evil wrote:

By-pass valves defeat the purpose of a condensing boiler, you have been told
that

Utter nonsense...


--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:

thus a bypass is needed for an S-plan system but not Y-plan (where
the 3-way
mid-position valve provides a path via the HW cylinder)

Could you not still get into a problem situation though with Y plan?

If there was no call for heat from the cylinder stat, but there was
from
the room stat, the 3 port valve would have switched to the heating
only
position and eliminated the path through the cylinder. Meanwhile if
there were TRVs on all rads (including the one in the room with the
stat), then they could all close off but leaving the main stat
calling
for heat and no path through the CH circuit.

That's why you have 2 lockshield valves on the rad(s) in the room with
the thermostat.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
Another related issue... Many boilers have frost detection built
in, and can fire up by themselves when there's no call for heat,
and again will need a flow path.

Yep

Also, some boilers will run the
pump for a short time if it hasn't been used for 24 hours to stop
the rotor from sticking.

I think the pumps are okay running into a dead end provided there's no
actual heat involved.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

By-pass valves defeat the purpose of
a condensing boiler, you have been told
that

Utter nonsense...

The DIYer voices his uninformed view. Yes, he does.


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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways
to

Given that the bypass will usually only come into play when the pump is
on overrun and there is no call for heat from any stat, so the boiler
will be off. So who cares?

You really don't know.


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"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
IIRC it's required for larger houses but I can't remember the size
threshold
or what reg it's in (part L, I'd guess)

As I understand it, separately timed zones are suggested for floor areas
exceeding 150m2. However, temperature control for separate living and
sleeping areas is always required (usually using TRVs or subzoning)
unless
the flat is open plan and such control would be pointless.

True - part L 1.38

I also notice many don't notice the independently timed requirement of
part
1.39 and fit simple roomstats in the other zones when full timed
controllers
are legally required.

"1.39 In most dwellings one timing zone divided into two temperature control
sub-zones would be appropriate."

That is one time clock and TVRs on all rads, except the rad where a room
stat is. Over 150 sq M floor area and it needs a separate times zone.


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John Rumm wrote:
Doctor Evil wrote:

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways to


Given that the bypass will usually only come into play when the pump is
on overrun and there is no call for heat from any stat, so the boiler
will be off. So who cares?



Or when most of the TRVs are off but the stat is calling for heat?

Dave S

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many ways
to
get around this. A heat bank/thermal store. Replace the internal pump
with
a Grundfos Alpha. Install an intermediate buffer store - a 40 litre
cylinder
heated by the boiler, with a fixed speed pump between boiler and pump
and
Grundfoss Alpha between the rads and buffer cylinder, etc, etc.

The DIYers know all the answers don't they.

All these solutions are a bit OTT when you
could just install the manufacturer's
recommended auto bypass valve, assuming
they haven't already incorporated one inside the case.

By-pass valves defeat the purpose of a condensing boiler, you have been
told
that


Having all the TRVs off tends to have the same effect. The purpose of
having a bypass in to ensure a flow is maintained through the boiler and to
cool hot-spots during the pump run-on.

"Fred" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

It can be I said "Having by-pass valves with condensing boilers is
not
recommended and should be avoided". Sound advice. There are many
ways
to
get around this. A heat bank/thermal store. Replace the internal
pump
with
a Grundfos Alpha. Install an intermediate buffer store - a 40 litre
cylinder
heated by the boiler, with a fixed speed pump between boiler and
pump
and
Grundfoss Alpha between the rads and buffer cylinder, etc, etc.

The DIYers know all the answers don't they.

All these solutions are a bit OTT when you
could just install the manufacturer's
recommended auto bypass valve, assuming
they haven't already incorporated one inside the case.

By-pass valves defeat the purpose
of a condensing boiler, you have been
told that

Having all the TRVs off tends to have the same effect. The purpose of
having a bypass in to ensure a flow is maintained through the boiler and
to
cool hot-spots during the pump run-on.

An auto by-pass will open when the TVRs close down. Best have a Grundfoss
Alpha pump and flow switch. The flow switch off the burner when the flow is
below a certain setting. The pump continues.




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Dave wrote:

Given that the bypass will usually only come into play when the pump
is on overrun and there is no call for heat from any stat, so the
boiler will be off. So who cares?



Or when most of the TRVs are off but the stat is calling for heat?

Yes precisely. So Drivel's argument that "By-pass valves defeat the
purpose of a condensing boiler" is nonsense. As you say, the only time
it will be passing water (assuming its correctly adjusted) are in
situations where there is no alternative flow path and the boiler ought
not be firing anyway.

This can happen when there is no call for heat on pump overrun. It could
also potentially happen if the installer has stuck a TRV on the rad in
the room with the stat - then there is the possibility that you will
still have demand for heat with all TRVs closed. That is a problem with
the installation though, and not a basic incompatibility between bypass
valve and boiler technology.

--
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John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

Given that the bypass will usually only come into play when the pump
is on overrun and there is no call for heat from any stat, so the
boiler will be off. So who cares?



Or when most of the TRVs are off but the stat is calling for heat?

Yes precisely. So Drivel's argument that "By-pass valves defeat the
purpose of a condensing boiler" is nonsense. As you say, the only time
it will be passing water (assuming its correctly adjusted) are in
situations where there is no alternative flow path and the boiler ought
not be firing anyway.

Total tripe. All TVRs could be down and only the downstairs toilet slightly
open. A call for heat. The by-pass will still open as the flow through the
rad will not be enough for 90% of boilers. Many rads may be calling for
heat and the by-pass can still be open. Then the spring wears in time,
making it open even more. They are a waste of time and should be avoided.
Makers put them on boilers in order to protect themselves from idiots. It
is easy to design them out.



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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

Total tripe. All TVRs could be down

Ah - you've sussed out the reliability of these matches certain makes of
boiler electronics :-)

Doctor Evil wrote:

Total tripe. All TVRs could be down and only the downstairs toilet slightly
open. A call for heat. The by-pass will still open as the flow through the

So you routinely fit the main room stat in the downstairs loo then?

Yup that figures.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

Total tripe. All TVRs could be down and only the downstairs toilet
slightly
open. A call for heat. The by-pass will still open as the flow through
the

So you routinely fit the main room stat in the downstairs loo then?

Yup that figures.

You really don't understand.


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