Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope
to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
"andy" wrote in message ... Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy There are metal epoxies that would mount a plate to the column. |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Calif Bill wrote: "andy" wrote in message ... Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy There are metal epoxies that would mount a plate to the column. Hilti powder actuated nail gun and Hilti threaded studs (1/2" long, for steel). Shoot in two studs to line up with the holes in the back of the electrical box, then secure with nuts and lockwashers. In the event the box needs to be removed, you can readily grind off the studs with an angle grinder and touch up paint it. |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 11:15:54 -0700, the infamous "Calif Bill"
scrawled the following: "andy" wrote in message ... Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy There are metal epoxies that would mount a plate to the column. I don't know if it's to code, so check with an electricaltician (Bruce Bergman, a Sparky here on RCM), but drilling the column with a masonry bit is simple, and various methods of fastening through it are to code. The simplest is a plastic insert in an oversized hole for that particular screw. It's an additional 5 minutes over the 5 minutes with the Hilti, but not if you have the masonry bit and don't have a Hiltiwhammer. -- If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment. -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 17, 11:14*am, andy wrote:
Hi Folks. *I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. *I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. *The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. *Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy All sorts of masonry anchors out there, I've used tons to mount various electrical boxes to concrete and block walls. I used to work in one of the first poured concrete buildings, made about 1917, the support columns were round and all electrical boxes were mounted that way with conduit running up to the ceiling to junction boxes. The column diameters were about 4' on the the floor we had the warehouse on, would have taken a hell of a hose clamp to span that. Stan |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 17, 2:37*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:14*am, andy wrote: Hi Folks. *I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. *I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. *The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. *Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy All sorts of masonry anchors out there, I've used tons to mount various electrical boxes to concrete and block walls. *I used to work in one of the first poured concrete buildings, made about 1917, the support columns were round and all electrical boxes were mounted that way with conduit running up to the ceiling to junction boxes. *The column diameters were about 4' on the the floor we had the warehouse on, would have taken a hell of a hose clamp to span that. Stan- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The problem is that these columns (I call them lally columns in Northeast USA) are steel tubes around 4 inches in diameter, filled with concrete. Will a hammer drill with a masonary bit drill though steel? I will have to experiment. Thanks, Andy |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Weld a piece of 1/8 x 1 across the column & screw to it. Bob
|
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Bob Engelhardt wrote: Weld a piece of 1/8 x 1 across the column & screw to it. Bob That's a lot of effort to cut the piece of 1/8 x 1, drag in a welder, find power, weld, cool, etc. vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Pete C. wrote:
That's a lot of effort ... vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti. Not if you don't have a Hilti. And do have a welder G. Bob |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Bob Engelhardt wrote: Pete C. wrote: That's a lot of effort ... vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti. Not if you don't have a Hilti. And do have a welder G. Bob Home Depot rents the Hilti DX36M (I own one), I'm not sure if they carry the threaded studs, but you can get them from the local Hilti store. |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 17, 6:05*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote: Pete C. wrote: That's a lot of effort *... vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti. Not if you don't have a Hilti. *And do have a welder G. *Bob Home Depot rents the Hilti DX36M (I own one), I'm not sure if they carry the threaded studs, but you can get them from the local Hilti store. If I rented the Hilti, could I not just use short nails/pins and blast right through the back of the box into the colunm? I do have a welder, but new shop is not wired for it......Until I run some conduit. Thanks, and keep the suggestions comming. Andy |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:59:30 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Pete C. wrote: That's a lot of effort ... vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti. Not if you don't have a Hilti. And do have a welder G. Bob Indeed!! my Hilti has come up missing.....damnit 'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.' Theodore Ro osevelt 1907 |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 17, 1:14*pm, andy wrote:
Hi Folks. *I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. *I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. *The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. *Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy Piece of 1" plywood U-bolted to the column. |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
rangerssuck fired this volley in
: On Aug 17, 1:14˙pm, andy wrote: Hi Folks. ˙I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. ˙I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. ˙The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. ˙Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? The common way here is to power-nail a mounting plate to the column. LLoyd |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 17, 6:14*pm, andy wrote:
In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I kind of like the hose clamp. Might look better if the hose clamp was silver brazed to the box and the box painted to match the column. The obvious solution that would likely be used by an electrician is cable ties. Quick, Easy, and Cheap. Would look better if some clips were screwed to the box, instead of running them thru the box. Dan Dan |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 18, 8:15*am, " wrote:
On Aug 17, 6:14*pm, andy wrote: In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I *kind of like the hose clamp. *Might look better if the hose clamp was silver brazed to the box and the box painted to match the column. The obvious solution that would likely be used by an electrician is cable ties. *Quick, Easy, and Cheap. *Would look better if some clips were screwed to the box, instead of running them thru the box. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Thanks for all the replies. So far, the ramset (Hilti) solution is out in front. I will post to the dropbox with my solution. Best Regards, Andy |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 18, 3:58*pm, andy wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:15*am, " wrote: On Aug 17, 6:14*pm, andy wrote: In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT tolallycolumns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I *kind of like the hose clamp. *Might look better if the hose clamp was silver brazed to the box and the box painted to match the column. The obvious solution that would likely be used by an electrician is cable ties. *Quick, Easy, and Cheap. *Would look better if some clips were screwed to the box, instead of running them thru the box. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan Thanks for all the replies. So far, the ramset (Hilti) solution is out in front. I will post to the dropbox with my solution. Best Regards, Andy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Update on my mounting electrical boxs to concrete filled steel lally columns: boxes were mounted using #10 x 0.5" drill-tip screws. The first batch I drilled the hole through the steel with the drill tip portion of the screw. I then chipped away a little of the concrete fill with a hammer and nail. Next I ground the drill tip off the screw with a bench grinder, finally I mounted the box with the "sawed off" screw. This was a bit tedious, but still didn't take much time. The second batch I just leaned into the drill-tip screw and mounted the box in one shot. Some of these went in a little crooked, but will hold the box on just fine. I guess my summary would be: if you are not bothered by the screws not going in perfectly normal to the back of the box, then to just bear down with the drill tips and go to town. If you are a perfectionist, you may want to go with the drill, chip, grind, mount program described above. I promised drop box photos, but it really is not that exciting and my pics didnt' come out very well. Thanks for the help, Andy |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 18, 5:15*am, " wrote:
The obvious solution that would likely be used by an electrician is cable ties. *Quick, Easy, and Cheap. *Would look better if some clips were screwed to the box, instead of running them thru the box. You can't attach the box with cable ties. We used saddle strap which is a cut to fit type of hose clamp. If you can find large enough hose clamps most inspectors would probably be OK - use two so the box can't twist. If the box is below six feet feet from the ground you may need to protect the cables with plastic conduit to that height. |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Years ago I had to tap many 1/4 20 holes in steel angle that had
concrete poured directly behind it. My solution was to have a bunch of #7 drills to get through the steel and then I cleared out a space in the concrete with a punch so the tap would not get destroyed. The drills were good for about one hole before needing to go back to the sharpener. You could start with a metal drill to get your hole location and not go through to the concrete. Then use a sharp carbide drill for concrete to finish going through the steel and into the concrete. Don't use a hammer drill while drilling in steel, just rotary. Then use concrete anchors to hold your box. On Aug 17, 1:14*pm, andy wrote: Hi Folks. *I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. *I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. *The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. *Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. *The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. *This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Hey Andy,
Metalworking group or not, the easiest thing to do is "box in" the Lally column, with 2 X ?? or even "thinner". "Pin it" through the top adjust hole of the Lally to keep it in place. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. XXXXXXXXXXXXX On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT), andy wrote: Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT), andy
wrote: Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced. Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt the steel column strength enough to matter. If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when you trip over an extension cord. If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar alone to carry the entire load. (This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from failing.) You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot. (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...) -- Bruce -- |
#22
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote: I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced. Not an issue. The concrete provides only compressive strength and that is not compromised even if it has some cracks in it. The 1/2" long pins won't fracture the concrete either. Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt the steel column strength enough to matter. If you're going to weld, just plug weld the box to the column via the normal box mounting holes and be done with it. It will be a much cleaner looking job, and again can be ground off with an angle grinder if the box needs to be removed. I've plug welded several electrical boxes to frames made of square steel tube and it works fine. If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when you trip over an extension cord. Good grief, $20 in materials to do the job of $0.50 worth of Hilti pins and loads, or $0.10 of weld? If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar alone to carry the entire load. You need to understand that concrete provides compressive strength only, it could be dry stacked concrete blocks and provide the same strength. The rebar is always what provides strength against flexing loads. (This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from failing.) Which is exactly why fractures in the concrete inside a lally column are irrelevant and why shooting the boxes on with Hilti pins is fine. You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot. A Ramset or Hilti can cause a lot of damage if used on the web sections of a non-filled block wall, they will do no harm at all to a concrete filled steel column. (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...) Also not an issue when shooting the proper 1/2" pins into the steel column. |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Aug 19, 10:10*am, "Pete C." wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote: * I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced. Not an issue. The concrete provides only compressive strength and that is not compromised even if it has some cracks in it. The 1/2" long pins won't fracture the concrete either. * Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt the steel column strength enough to matter. If you're going to weld, just plug weld the box to the column via the normal box mounting holes and be done with it. It will be a much cleaner looking job, and again can be ground off with an angle grinder if the box needs to be removed. I've plug welded several electrical boxes to frames made of square steel tube and it works fine. * If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the column or a *few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when you trip over an extension cord. Good grief, $20 in materials to do the job of $0.50 worth of Hilti pins and loads, or $0.10 of weld? *If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar alone to carry the entire load. You need to understand that concrete provides compressive strength only, it could be dry stacked concrete blocks and provide the same strength. The rebar is always what provides strength against flexing loads. *(This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from failing.) Which is exactly why fractures in the concrete inside a lally column are irrelevant and why shooting the boxes on with Hilti pins is fine. * You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot. A Ramset or Hilti can cause a lot of damage if used on the web sections of a non-filled block wall, they will do no harm at all to a concrete filled steel column. * (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. *Been there, Done that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...) Also not an issue when shooting the proper 1/2" pins into the steel column. Besides, the Hilti is kind of like a firearm, and the second amendment ramifications of this job are huge. Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Seriously, my initial thought was similar to Bruce's - that you could really screw up the concrete and compromize the strength of the column. But Pete's explanation sounds pretty good. The concrete is only providing compressive strength, a fracture is not removing any material (assuming that there arent any huge voids), so this should work fine, and take all of couple of minutes, start to finish. And, it will smell like gunpowder, which is always good for the folks in this group. |
#24
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:28:14 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote: On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT), andy wrote: Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced. Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt the steel column strength enough to matter. If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when you trip over an extension cord. If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar alone to carry the entire load. (This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from failing.) You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot. (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...) -- Bruce -- One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. Gunner Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do something damned nasty to all three of them. |
#25
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:06:55 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following: On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:28:14 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman wrote: On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT), andy wrote: Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced. Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt the steel column strength enough to matter. If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when you trip over an extension cord. If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar alone to carry the entire load. (This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from failing.) You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot. (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...) -- Bruce -- One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir? (This I -gotta- hear. --- So far Mr. Obama has used his personally exciting presidency for initiatives that are spending public money on a scale not seen since ancient Egypt. -- Daniel Henninger WSJ Online, 4 June 2009 "Obama's America: Too Fat to Fail The age of the induced industrial coma." |
#26
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
: What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir? (This I -gotta- hear. Larry, Per this in the OP: "...steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete..." I'm just guessing plain ol' 6011 ought to work fine G. (I'd still Hilti 'em in) LLoyd |
#27
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... Larry Jaques fired this volley in : What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir? (This I -gotta- hear. Larry, Per this in the OP: "...steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete..." I'm just guessing plain ol' 6011 ought to work fine G. (I'd still Hilti 'em in) LLoyd Besides the Ramset is more fun than welding. |
#28
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:02:33 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Larry Jaques fired this volley in : What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir? (This I -gotta- hear. Larry, Per this in the OP: "...steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete..." I'm just guessing plain ol' 6011 ought to work fine G. (I'd still Hilti 'em in) LLoyd Isnt it amazing how some people just never bother reading ALL the words? G Gunner, who occasionally does the same. Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do something damned nasty to all three of them. |
#29
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 05:57:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:06:55 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch scrawled the following: On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:28:14 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman wrote: On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT), andy wrote: Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe? In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit "homegrown" looking. Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. Andy I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced. Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt the steel column strength enough to matter. If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when you trip over an extension cord. If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar alone to carry the entire load. (This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from failing.) You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot. (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...) -- Bruce -- One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir? (This I -gotta- hear. JB Weld of course! Didnt they teach you anything? --- So far Mr. Obama has used his personally exciting presidency for initiatives that are spending public money on a scale not seen since ancient Egypt. -- Daniel Henninger WSJ Online, 4 June 2009 "Obama's America: Too Fat to Fail The age of the induced industrial coma." Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do something damned nasty to all three of them. |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Gunner Asch wrote:
One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. Doesn't the galvanizing **** up the weld? I think I'd drill the mounting hole just a touch bigger (to drill off the galvy) & plug weld. Bob |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ... Gunner Asch wrote: One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. Doesn't the galvanizing **** up the weld? I think I'd drill the mounting hole just a touch bigger (to drill off the galvy) & plug weld. Bob It is an electrical box. How much force is it going to have to stand? |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:00:16 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. Doesn't the galvanizing **** up the weld? I think I'd drill the mounting hole just a touch bigger (to drill off the galvy) & plug weld. Bob Not really, but if the urge strikes, hit the welding surfaces with a coarse wire wheel or even a grinder. Just break the galv and the weld will lift up the rest. Gunner, who welded a bunch of electrical boxes to his shop walls and supports (steel) Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do something damned nasty to all three of them. |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Mounting electrical box to lally column?
Bob Engelhardt wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works great, less filling. Doesn't the galvanizing **** up the weld? I think I'd drill the mounting hole just a touch bigger (to drill off the galvy) & plug weld. No, it doesn't, just don't breathe the zink laced fumes. For mounting an electrical box to a column, metallurgical weld perfection is not required, and the galvanizing burns off anyway. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
conc foundation under lolly or lally column? | Home Repair | |||
Rotting (pitting) lally columns | Home Repair | |||
Lally Column Stting In A Pit? | Home Repair | |||
Which is stronger lolly column or steel column? | Home Repair | |||
Residential power wiring: mounting electrical box outside? | Home Repair |