Excuse the lengthy OT message, but I noticed that folks in this group
have built metal buildings for their workshops and though you might be
able to help me.

I am considering building a large garage/pole barn using metal.

I am very concerned with lightening strikes due to where I live.

My house is nearly the highest thing in town. When we get lightening
it's always dancing around us. There had been a tree next to the
house about 30 years ago, it would get hit by lightening and they
finally put a lightening rod in it. Eventually got taken out anyway
(big tree they cemented back together at one point). It was gone when
I got here, but I had to deal with the stump which is when I found the
braided wire from the lightening rod.

The roofs of the additions that were put on in the 20's were all metal
covered with tar. It's clear they were not maintained, as many
interior walls had damage, so they were probably exposed as I found
them for some time. The chimneys on either end of the house had
lightening rods, each fastened to their own ground, not in the middle
which I think would have been the right thing to do.
The ligtening rods were disconnected for at least the last 13 years
(since we've been here), but I just had to spend 3 grand having the
tops of both rebuilt as they were loose from being hit by lightening,
and bricks had started falling down.

We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

When I was making some changes to a small old hay barn so my wife
could use the second floor, I noticed what looked like some singed
paper on the roof. Further inspection showed that it had also had a
metal roof, and had clearly been hit and burned by lightening.

If I look off into the woods on the hill to the left of our house, I
can see trees that used to be green that got whacked by lightening and
died from the hits (we think we know when it happened, helluva a
storm, but of course it took years for everything to go bare).

When we walk in the woods behind our house, every now and then we find
a tree top and occassionaly a whole tree that was clearly struck by
lightening.

I've searched around the net and can't seem to find any real input on
this. Someone told me that if I properly bond the building, I'll be
all set. Well this makes sense except it makes me wonder if a 30x60
chunk of metal is going to be so attractive that it will invite the
lightening and I'll end up with strikes on my wooden buildings?

Any real world experience would be greatly appreciated, since
everything I have found on lightening seems inconclusive.

Sorry for the lengthy post, and thanks for any feedback. If emailing,
remove nospam.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:06:17 -0500, nospamgoingjag wrote:

I am considering building a large garage/pole barn using metal.
I am very concerned with lightening strikes due to where I live.

A metal building is probably the best thing to be in, actually. It
forms what is known as a "faraday cage", and allows the lightning to
find a clear path to ground that doesn't involve going through you.
Ground it well, and you should be fine.

I've searched around the net and can't seem to find any real input on
this. Someone told me that if I properly bond the building, I'll be
all set. Well this makes sense except it makes me wonder if a 30x60
chunk of metal is going to be so attractive that it will invite the
lightening and I'll end up with strikes on my wooden buildings?

No, it'll attract the lightning to itself. You want it to be the most
attractive to the lightning, so ground it well and give the lightning
some nice exciting pointy spikes to go for (serious).

Snodgrass lighning rods used to have a very informative site,
maybe they're a place you could look.

Dave Hinz

"nospamgoingjag" wrote in message
...
Excuse the lengthy OT message, but I noticed that folks in this group
have built metal buildings for their workshops and though you might be
able to help me.

I am considering building a large garage/pole barn using metal.

I am very concerned with lightening strikes due to where I live.

snip
We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

Good thing it's no longer in active use!

Do a google search
One example is http://www.lightningrod.com/manual4_why.html
I lived on the lower part of a hill that was regularly hit by lightning.
The main power line that supplied the community came over that hill and
every few years it got struck. If you have strikes so close it would be
prudent to put up lighting rods.
I have seen a hilltop above me being stuck by lightning while I was still
securing my sailboat. There must have been a four inch spark that jumped
between my fingers and the metal mast. The massive current that had to be
at least half a mile away had induced enough current to feel like a live
spark plug. Induced or stray currents can cause havoc with anything
electronic nearby.
At least put up a rod at the highest point on your property to draw a
strike.
Randy

"nospamgoingjag" wrote in message
...
Excuse the lengthy OT message, but I noticed that folks in this group
have built metal buildings for their workshops and though you might be
able to help me.

I am considering building a large garage/pole barn using metal.

I am very concerned with lightening strikes due to where I live.

My house is nearly the highest thing in town. When we get lightening
it's always dancing around us. There had been a tree next to the
house about 30 years ago, it would get hit by lightening and they
finally put a lightening rod in it. Eventually got taken out anyway
(big tree they cemented back together at one point). It was gone when
I got here, but I had to deal with the stump which is when I found the
braided wire from the lightening rod.

The roofs of the additions that were put on in the 20's were all metal
covered with tar. It's clear they were not maintained, as many
interior walls had damage, so they were probably exposed as I found
them for some time. The chimneys on either end of the house had
lightening rods, each fastened to their own ground, not in the middle
which I think would have been the right thing to do.
The ligtening rods were disconnected for at least the last 13 years
(since we've been here), but I just had to spend 3 grand having the
tops of both rebuilt as they were loose from being hit by lightening,
and bricks had started falling down.

We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

When I was making some changes to a small old hay barn so my wife
could use the second floor, I noticed what looked like some singed
paper on the roof. Further inspection showed that it had also had a
metal roof, and had clearly been hit and burned by lightening.

If I look off into the woods on the hill to the left of our house, I
can see trees that used to be green that got whacked by lightening and
died from the hits (we think we know when it happened, helluva a
storm, but of course it took years for everything to go bare).

When we walk in the woods behind our house, every now and then we find
a tree top and occassionaly a whole tree that was clearly struck by
lightening.

I've searched around the net and can't seem to find any real input on
this. Someone told me that if I properly bond the building, I'll be
all set. Well this makes sense except it makes me wonder if a 30x60
chunk of metal is going to be so attractive that it will invite the
lightening and I'll end up with strikes on my wooden buildings?

Any real world experience would be greatly appreciated, since
everything I have found on lightening seems inconclusive.

Sorry for the lengthy post, and thanks for any feedback. If emailing,
remove nospam.

Don't shortcut the grounding system. A good system includes lightning
rods, heavy wire (#6?), and ground rods. One good grounding system is
an underground circle of heavy wire going all around the building,
bonded to the building and the lightning rods. I recall that this is
what they would use in rocky areas where ground rods cannot be driven in
very far. The large industrial building I was associated with had heavy
copper wire surrounding the building, about 20 feet away, as part of the
ground system, with that bonded to ground rods and the building frame.

Be sure to bond everything to everything, bond the metal frame of the
building to the lightning rod and the ground system. Actually, for a
metal building, you could probably forget the lightning rods, and just
ground the frame. However, if you are in a lightning prone area, better
to overdesign it some. I recall some sources recommending heavy wire
running across the ridge of the roof and then down to ground rods at
both ends of the ridge.

The web site below shows a lightning protection system, although I think
they don't put enough emphasis on the grounding.

http://wvlightning.com/protection.html

The state farm site has a good description, but not that good a picture.

http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/electrichazards.htm

You did not say where the water table is on your property. The drier is
is, the harder it is to get a good ground, so the more ground rods and
the longer ground rods you will need. 10 foot ground rods are a good
choice, if the soil will allow them, I noticed a couple of sources
recomending the 10 foot length. In a perfect world, you would measure
the resistance of the grounding system, but that is not that easy to do.
Probably better to just drive more ground rods. One 10 foot ground
rod at each corner of the building, bonded to the metal building frame,
sounds pretty good to me. If the water table is high, maybe two ground
rods would be enough.

You should be able to find something in the national electric code that
would help you come up with a simple but effective lightning protection
system, but when I took a look the advice seemed kind of vague, which is
what you reported.

Lightning is ultimately unpredictable, but if you do the basics right
you should be protected against most lightning strikes.

Given the history of your property, it might be worth it to hire a
lightning consultant to give you specific recommendations. I think that
the work could be done by you if you know what to do.

Richard




nospamgoingjag wrote:
Excuse the lengthy OT message, but I noticed that folks in this group
have built metal buildings for their workshops and though you might be
able to help me.

I am considering building a large garage/pole barn using metal.

I am very concerned with lightening strikes due to where I live.

My house is nearly the highest thing in town. When we get lightening
it's always dancing around us. There had been a tree next to the
house about 30 years ago, it would get hit by lightening and they
finally put a lightening rod in it. Eventually got taken out anyway
(big tree they cemented back together at one point). It was gone when
I got here, but I had to deal with the stump which is when I found the
braided wire from the lightening rod.

The roofs of the additions that were put on in the 20's were all metal
covered with tar. It's clear they were not maintained, as many
interior walls had damage, so they were probably exposed as I found
them for some time. The chimneys on either end of the house had
lightening rods, each fastened to their own ground, not in the middle
which I think would have been the right thing to do.
The ligtening rods were disconnected for at least the last 13 years
(since we've been here), but I just had to spend 3 grand having the
tops of both rebuilt as they were loose from being hit by lightening,
and bricks had started falling down.

We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

When I was making some changes to a small old hay barn so my wife
could use the second floor, I noticed what looked like some singed
paper on the roof. Further inspection showed that it had also had a
metal roof, and had clearly been hit and burned by lightening.

If I look off into the woods on the hill to the left of our house, I
can see trees that used to be green that got whacked by lightening and
died from the hits (we think we know when it happened, helluva a
storm, but of course it took years for everything to go bare).

When we walk in the woods behind our house, every now and then we find
a tree top and occassionaly a whole tree that was clearly struck by
lightening.

I've searched around the net and can't seem to find any real input on
this. Someone told me that if I properly bond the building, I'll be
all set. Well this makes sense except it makes me wonder if a 30x60
chunk of metal is going to be so attractive that it will invite the
lightening and I'll end up with strikes on my wooden buildings?

Any real world experience would be greatly appreciated, since
everything I have found on lightening seems inconclusive.

Sorry for the lengthy post, and thanks for any feedback. If emailing,
remove nospam.

Point lightning rods are no longer recommended for lightning rods. The
lightning research center in Socorro NM discovered that a flat, stubby
rod installed in arrays around the perimeter of the roof actually repel
the buildup of the ground charge that precedes a strike. I imagine they
have a web site.
Visiting their research center can get real exciting, so to speak,
during a storm. It is located on top of a mountain and has a large
glass dome for observation. They send up balloons on steel cables to
attract strikes and record their characteristics. I can't recall the
name of the laboratory at the moment.
Bugs

I looked up the Socorro lightning research center.
Check:http://www.powerquality.com/mag/powe...nal_lightning/
For a good article and some great pictures taken at the Langmuir lab.
Bugs

On 1 Apr 2005 04:59:54 -0800, Bugs wrote:
Point lightning rods are no longer recommended for lightning rods. The
lightning research center in Socorro NM discovered that a flat, stubby
rod installed in arrays around the perimeter of the roof actually repel
the buildup of the ground charge that precedes a strike. I imagine they
have a web site.

Interesting. I'll check that out, thanks.

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"nospamgoingjag" wrote in message
...

snip
We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

Good thing it's no longer in active use!


Perhaps not. Might just be the perfect cure for constipation!

I believe there is a general misunderstanding about how lightning rods
work. It's not clear whether the original poster understood or not, so
I'll just chime in anyway.

A static charge builds up in the air during a lightning storm. It
originates in the clouds, but induces an electric field through the
atmosphere. When the voltage between two points (two clouds, cloud and
ground, or cloud and building, animal, person, tree, etc.) builds up to
the breakdown voltage of air (on the order of 10,000 volts per inch
distance) then an arc or spark (lighning) jumps between the two.

To prevent such arcing, you want to dissipate the electric field in the
vicinity of your building.

Now, what's not always understood is how an electric field induces an
opposite field in an object. I.e., if the cloud is negatively charged
(sorry - I don't recall which charge the cloud normally will have) then
it will induce a positive charge in the building.

The critical thing is that this positive charge will not be uniform
across the building. It will be greater on the roof, and will have the
greatest charge density at abrupt corners. What a lighting rod is is a
VERY abrupt corner.

When the thunderstorm passes into the area and starts inducing electric
charge on buildings, the charge density at the tip of the lighning rod
becomes so intense as to leak current. This, in turn, dissipates the
field. Exactly what we want to accomplish. (Thank you, Benjamin
Franklin!) At the voltages we're dealing with here, this would be true
whether or not the lighning rod were grounded. But the current to
(from?) the rod must travel through something, and if the reisitance of
what it must travel through is great, its voltage will rise to that of
the air, ending its effectiveness at dissipating the charge. Hence,
the rod must be grounded sufficiently to conduct whatever current it
must, or else it will end up attracting lightning.

Hope this helps.

On 1 Apr 2005 20:56:09 GMT, Ignoramus9970 wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 12:51:15 -0800, wrote:
When the thunderstorm passes into the area and starts inducing electric
charge on buildings, the charge density at the tip of the lighning rod
becomes so intense as to leak current. This, in turn, dissipates the
field. Exactly what we want to accomplish. (Thank you, Benjamin
Franklin!) At the voltages we're dealing with here, this would be true
whether or not the lighning rod were grounded. But the current to
(from?) the rod must travel through something, and if the reisitance of
what it must travel through is great, its voltage will rise to that of
the air, ending its effectiveness at dissipating the charge. Hence,
the rod must be grounded sufficiently to conduct whatever current it
must, or else it will end up attracting lightning.

Would be interesting to put an amp meter (clamp on or coil) on the
conductor from the rod to the ground.

For a very short time, anyway Then again, you do have some pretty large
electrical toys, don't you...

On 1 Apr 2005 22:05:31 GMT, Ignoramus9970 wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 21:12:14 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

For a very short time, anyway Then again, you do have some pretty large
electrical toys, don't you...

Well, a clamp on ammeter is not put in series with the current, it
clamps around the conductor. I doubt that it would burn.

Yes, but there will be a hella-big current induced into the ammeter
during the initial spike of current, no? It'd be interesting to see
the waveform - I suspect a _very_ fast initial rise and a slow decay,
but I could be very wrong. That initial spike, even though lightning
is a DC phenomenon, has a lot of change in a short amount of time, and
may induce quite a bit of current into your meter.

I do indeed
have a pretty large military surplus clamp on ammeter, that I kept for
myself.

Imagine my surprise

Have you ever been to American Science and Surplus, by the way? Seems
like the kind of place you would enjoy. There's one in Milwaukee, and
I seem to recall one down in your area as well.

Dave Hinz

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:38:57 -0500, "ATP*" wrote
something
.......and in reply I say!:


We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

Good thing it's no longer in active use!

Glad I didn't let _that_ one fly in the living room!
************************************************** ****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 07:12:25 GMT, (Old Nick)
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:38:57 -0500, "ATP*" wrote
something
......and in reply I say!:


We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

Good thing it's no longer in active use!

Glad I didn't let _that_ one fly in the living room!
************************************************* *****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Moving an outhouse a "few feet back" was standard practice during
Halloween to one up the tricksters. ;)

Also since many outhouses were used in the dead of night in almost zero
light conditions (many users could and did walk there with their eyes
closed), some outhouses of troublesome neighbors were regularly
relocated by the neighborhood's kids at dusk. ;))

One must remember that this was before kids had other distractions like
television, video games and Internet to keep their attention.

So much for good clean fun....

TMT

I would be cautious about putting a clamp on ampmeter around the
lightning system conductor. When installing lightning systems one
wants to avoid sharp bends at all costs. Just a 90 degree bend can
cause enough inductance that the lightning jumps to a nearby object.

A clamp on ampmeter would also add some inductance to the lightning
system conductor.


Dan

In article , Brian Lawson says...


Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!

Heh. I think *somebody* played a halloween prank there. I bet
that ****ter got put right back over the hole the next day!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Brian Lawson says...


Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!

Heh. I think *somebody* played a halloween prank there. I bet
that ****ter got put right back over the hole the next day!

Jim

--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I have heard more than one report of the intended target of such a
prank having moved his own outhouse a few feet FORWARD of the hole and
causing similar results.
Some of those old farmers were young and bored once, too. :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Moving an outhouse a "few feet back" was standard practice during
Halloween to one up the tricksters. ;)

Also since many outhouses were used in the dead of night in almost zero
light conditions (many users could and did walk there with their eyes
closed), some outhouses of troublesome neighbors were regularly
relocated by the neighborhood's kids at dusk. ;))

One must remember that this was before kids had other distractions like
television, video games and Internet to keep their attention.

So much for good clean fun....

TMT

To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)

A bunch of high school girls were having a Halloween slumber party
about a half mile south of here up a gravel road. A bunch of girls
attracts a bunch of boys; at my house since I lived closest to the
slumber party.

WE decide to scare the girls. We had a lot of old farm machinery at
our place. Among this collection was the front axle from a horse drawn
wagon. WE decide to tie empty oil cans to the wheel spokes with baling
wire and make a screaming run around the farm house full of girls. WE
decide to put a handful of gravel in each can for effect. WE decide to
hitch ourselves to the tongue with wire around our waists.

We sneak up their drive before tying the cans to the wheels. Someone
gives the signal (there is always a signal) and away we go around the
house a few times, yelling and making teenage boy noises.

The girls all run out on the porch screaming. You would think they
would run inside if they were frightened. Female logic.

We break the circle, head down the drive and hit the gravel road back
to my house. We still making all the noise we can when Vaughn falls
down. With all the noise, no one notices in the dark. He's tied to the
tongue with wire. The wheels run over him a few times and the cans are
banging him pretty good. Anyway, after this half mile run and dragging
Vaughn half that, we're really worn out. We darned near killed him.

We peeled off what was left of his clothes, layed him in the bed of a
pickup and washed him off with a hose. He was cussing quite a bit. Of
course, it was October. WE decided we had better take him home to his
Mama. That would at least stop the cussing. It took two weeks of
healing before he could come back to school.

In article , Andy Asberry says...

We peeled off what was left of his clothes, layed him in the bed of a
pickup and washed him off with a hose. He was cussing quite a bit. Of
course, it was October. WE decided we had better take him home to his
Mama. That would at least stop the cussing. It took two weeks of
healing before he could come back to school.

I've seen worse Andy. My buddies and I were drinking beer behind
one guy's house - we didn't realize that one of the guys had jack
daniels in his bottles until it was too late. So the other two
of us had to figure out how to walk him home (we had driver's
licenses by then, but were too smart to go driving around in that
state) and inform his parents about the state of their son.

We were escorting him up the hill towards his house trying to sort
the problem out in our mind when a guy in a VW bug came over the
hilltop on the sidewalk and mowed us down, didn't even slow down
or stop.

The guy we were bringing home got knocked spang out of his sneakers
(really did happen, they were down the road apiece with the coat
I had lent him) and gave him a compound fracture of his femur. That's
a pretty strong bone in a 17 year old, too.

He spent more than two weeks, and it wasn't at home, before he
could go back to school. They caught the guy because we gave
a pretty good description and he left a bunch of his car trim
bits on the roadside after hitting a street sign.

I still remember getting up after the car went by - the other
guy who was with me, had my glasses in his hands. I had his.
Never *did* figure that one out. It's a slap miracle that teenagers
survive to adulthood.

Jim


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==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

BIG SNIP

WE decided we had better take him home to his
Mama. That would at least stop the cussing. It took two weeks of
healing before he could come back to school.


Speaking of home to Mama.....Leonard wasn't the brightest guy. In
fact, the whole family combined wouldn't add to an IQ of 101. When
Leonard was in his mid-teens, he had the chore of feeding the horses
and dunging out the stalls at the local dairy, very early in the
morning. I don't think he had ever learned to tie a knot, as he too
often managed to let one or more of the horses out into the alley, and
they would wander into the streets around the dairy. The delivery
guys, much annoyed and worried for the safety of the horses, would
have to chase and catch them before they could get hitched up and away
on their routes. Finally, Leonard was threatened with dire
consequences if he allowed this to happen again. He didn't listen.
Next time it occurred, after the drivers retrieved the horses, they
pulled Leonard's pants down and painted his privates and backsides in
the dairy colour scheme, red and green and black. Leonard was quite
upset, and ran home to Mama, who promptly cleaned off the still tacky
paint with some turpentine.

You could hear Leonard scream for miles.

But you know, he never let a horse get loose again.

One Halloween when my Grandfather was a teenager (1901-1905) his brothers
and friends decided to put the wagon on top the barn. So they spent several
hours in the dark hauling the parts up onto the roof and putting it back
together. The next morning when my Great-grandfather got up and walked
outside he saw the wagon up on the roof . He walked back inside and said "I
don't know how the wagon got itself up on the barn roof but it better get
itself down real quick." At which point my Grandfather and his brothers set
a new record getting the wagon back on the ground.
I've always wondered if they woke up my Great-grandfather. It would be
pretty hard haul the wagon parts up onto the roof without making some noise
or setting the dog off barking. I can see him sitting at the window watching
them, laughing to himself, waiting to get them in the morning.
Karl

"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
...

Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 07:12:25 GMT, (Old Nick)
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:38:57 -0500, "ATP*" wrote
something
......and in reply I say!:


We have an old three holer outhouse that is now a garden shed. It had
the same sheet metal roof in hip form, and I liked the look so left it
alone (unlike the house where I had the metal torn off and replaced
with a membrane roof). One day I was mowing the lawn and found a
piece of rusty metal, I looked over at the back of the outhouse and
there was a big burn mark and at least 3 feet of the roof had been
blown off.

Good thing it's no longer in active use!

Glad I didn't let _that_ one fly in the living room!
************************************************ ******************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 05:20:49 -0400, Brian Lawson
wrote:

BIG SNIP

WE decided we had better take him home to his
Mama. That would at least stop the cussing. It took two weeks of
healing before he could come back to school.


Speaking of home to Mama.....Leonard wasn't the brightest guy. In
fact, the whole family combined wouldn't add to an IQ of 101. When
Leonard was in his mid-teens, he had the chore of feeding the horses
and dunging out the stalls at the local dairy, very early in the
morning. I don't think he had ever learned to tie a knot, as he too
often managed to let one or more of the horses out into the alley, and
they would wander into the streets around the dairy. The delivery
guys, much annoyed and worried for the safety of the horses, would
have to chase and catch them before they could get hitched up and away
on their routes. Finally, Leonard was threatened with dire
consequences if he allowed this to happen again. He didn't listen.
Next time it occurred, after the drivers retrieved the horses, they
pulled Leonard's pants down and painted his privates and backsides in
the dairy colour scheme, red and green and black. Leonard was quite
upset, and ran home to Mama, who promptly cleaned off the still tacky
paint with some turpentine.

You could hear Leonard scream for miles.

Probably wasn't too bad until she lit it.....

Brian Lawson wrote:
Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!



I'm glad they got out alive. It could have been much worse, as in:

There once was a man named McBride,
Who fell down the outhouse and died.
His next elder brother,
Fell into another,
So now they're in turd side-by-side.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Andy Asberry wrote:

On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:




To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)


Heck, I remember when it came in 55 gallon barrels and we young pump
jockeys had to transfer it into those one quart glass jars with those
tinplate screw on spouts on top of them.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

jim rozen wrote:



I still remember getting up after the car went by - the other
guy who was with me, had my glasses in his hands. I had his.
Never *did* figure that one out. It's a slap miracle that teenagers
survive to adulthood.

Jim



Yes, there's a whole bunch of guardian angels doing their level best to
keep kids alive, but every once in a while one of them has to take a pee
break and we lose a teen ager. Sometimes it's not really the kids' fault.

Our youngest son lost two of his high school classmates last year, one
through a sailboat capsizing, and even though he was wearing a life vest
hypothermia killed him before they found him. The other kid was involved
in a head on collision with a drunk driver who got onto an interstate
the wrong way by entering it through an exit ramp.

But, our son walked away without a scratch the first snowy night last
November when he drove onto a patch of black ice on a slight curve, slid
over to the curb and rolled his recently hard earned car onto its head.

Those guardian angels were working overtime for us that night.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejwisnia18/ben/#honda

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Andy Asberry wrote:

On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:




To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)


Heck, I remember when it came in 55 gallon barrels and we young pump
jockeys had to transfer it into those one quart glass jars with those
tinplate screw on spouts on top of them.

Jeff


Yeah, and there was the Flying A Service stations where you could
get your car serviced ... had to get gas this morning and I think I
got "serviced" instead $2.37 (up to $2.41 same station by the time I
came home). When people came in, you did their windows, checked
the water and oil for them and all those good things (been there done that)

Mike Fields wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Andy Asberry wrote:


On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:



To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)


Heck, I remember when it came in 55 gallon barrels and we young pump
jockeys had to transfer it into those one quart glass jars with those
tinplate screw on spouts on top of them.

Jeff



Yeah, and there was the Flying A Service stations where you could
get your car serviced ... had to get gas this morning and I think I
got "serviced" instead $2.37 (up to $2.41 same station by the time I
came home). When people came in, you did their windows, checked
the water and oil for them and all those good things (been there done that)


Right, I even had to clean the front floors of customers' cars with a
whisk broom and dustpan. (Seriously.)

I just hope that gas prices don't go so high that young toughs will
start stealing gas from peoples cars like they did during the oil
shortages in the mid 70s.

Remember how those *******s used to shove a pan under the back of your
car and then jam a shiv up through the bottom of the gas tank so they
could make off with your gas? Ugly times.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Mike Fields wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Andy Asberry wrote:


On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:



To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)


Heck, I remember when it came in 55 gallon barrels and we young pump
jockeys had to transfer it into those one quart glass jars with those
tinplate screw on spouts on top of them.

Jeff



Yeah, and there was the Flying A Service stations where you could
get your car serviced ... had to get gas this morning and I think I
got "serviced" instead $2.37 (up to $2.41 same station by the time I
came home). When people came in, you did their windows, checked
the water and oil for them and all those good things (been there done that)


Right, I even had to clean the front floors of customers' cars with a
whisk broom and dustpan. (Seriously.)

I just hope that gas prices don't go so high that young toughs will
start stealing gas from peoples cars like they did during the oil
shortages in the mid 70s.

Remember how those *******s used to shove a pan under the back of your
car and then jam a shiv up through the bottom of the gas tank so they
could make off with your gas? Ugly times.

At $2.42 (and still rising, despite only being $2.30 in the next town
over) a gallon locally, I'm expecting exactly that type of thing to
begin happening in this area just about any time now. (Butte County
California - SERIOUSLY depressed, economically. Depending on which
report you read, we're either #1 or #2 in the category "highest
percentage of county population receiving unemployment/welfare benefits
in the state of California." - A rather dubious honor.) I'd consider
moving, but with gas prices being what they are, I practically can't
afford to fill the car to get me out of here!

Something REALLY needs to be done about the price-gouging the oil
companies are doing. And don't try to hand me any of that crap about the
price of a barrel of crude being high - That barrel of oil that the oil
company buys today isn't going to arrive at the gas pump for 6 months,
if not longer, but you can bet your ass that it'll be jacked up even
further when it DOES get here, even if the price of oil were to
magically fall through the floor overnight. They don't care, though...
So long as they keep lining their pockets.

Reminds me of the "coffee shortage" back about the same time as the oil
shortage - Prices almost literally doubled overnight when the south
american coffee crop got frosted. Never mind the fact that those beans
wouldn't have hit US shores for processing, LET ALONE grocery store
shelves for consumers to buy, for a minimum of 6-8 months. But when
record-level crops from other countries started coming in a few months
later, practically flooding the market, did the price of coffee go back
down to anything near what it was prior to the "shortage"? HELL NO!!!
Prices actually JUMPED AGAIN!

We've got the same thing going on with gas - It boils down to "They'll
bitch, but they'll pay the outrageous price because they don't have a
choice, so let's leave the price high (or jack it even higher), rake off
everything we can, and when the bitching gets loud enough, we'll drop
the price 3 cents to shut them up for a while before we raise it another
10 cents."



Fondly remembering a news article on the back of a recipe mom clipped
out of the Detroit Free Press back in about '72 - Headline: "Gas war
continues: Prices down to 31 cents per gallon in some areas" The story
went on to describe a "price war" in Detroit involving several gas
stations trying to undercut each other. Owners from several of the
stations were interviewed, and were raving about how they hadn't made so
much money in years, even with the seeming "cut your own throat" prices
that were involved. One owner was even quoted as saying he had plans to
drop his prices to a quarter a gallon for all grades, and was expecting
that if he did, he'd be making even more of a profit due to the volume.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...

Fondly remembering a news article on the back of a recipe mom clipped
out of the Detroit Free Press back in about '72 - Headline: "Gas war
continues: Prices down to 31 cents per gallon in some areas" The story
went on to describe a "price war" in Detroit involving several gas
stations trying to undercut each other.

It was even lower in some places: 26 cents/gal at one station in Grand
Ledge, MI, where I used to gas up on my way to Grand Rapids. I remember
filling up my MG there for $1.90, and it was on empty when I stopped for
gas. The car got 35 mpg, too. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:27:22 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Andy Asberry wrote:

On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:




To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)


Heck, I remember when it came in 55 gallon barrels and we young pump
jockeys had to transfer it into those one quart glass jars with those
tinplate screw on spouts on top of them.

Jeff

I did that, but it was into 1 gallon jars for the Ag-cats. The P&W
R-985 was a dry sump with 7 gal reserve oil tank.

Pete Keillor

Brian Lawson wrote:
Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!



I'm glad they got out alive. It could have been much worse, as in:

There once was a man named McBride,
Who fell down the outhouse and died.
His next elder brother,
Fell into another,
So now they're in turd side-by-side.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"
***snortttttt***** Time for *another* shirt change..... Jeeeezzzz
Jeff, you must have a book full of these..,.. :-)
Ken

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:25:08 GMT, the inscrutable Don Bruder
spake:

Fondly remembering a news article on the back of a recipe mom clipped
out of the Detroit Free Press back in about '72 - Headline: "Gas war
continues: Prices down to 31 cents per gallon in some areas" The story
went on to describe a "price war" in Detroit involving several gas
stations trying to undercut each other. Owners from several of the
stations were interviewed, and were raving about how they hadn't made so
much money in years, even with the seeming "cut your own throat" prices
that were involved. One owner was even quoted as saying he had plans to
drop his prices to a quarter a gallon for all grades, and was expecting
that if he did, he'd be making even more of a profit due to the volume.

I remember paying $0.21.3 per gallon in Phoenix in '73 when I left
LoCal for tech school there. It cost me $2.50 to fill up the tank
of that '68 Ford Ranch Wagon.


--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

Andy Asberry wrote:
On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:


Moving an outhouse a "few feet back" was standard practice during
Halloween to one up the tricksters. ;)

Also since many outhouses were used in the dead of night in almost zero
light conditions (many users could and did walk there with their eyes
closed), some outhouses of troublesome neighbors were regularly
relocated by the neighborhood's kids at dusk. ;))

One must remember that this was before kids had other distractions like
television, video games and Internet to keep their attention.

So much for good clean fun....

TMT


To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)

I'm a little unclear. I remember those flimsy
cylindrical 1 qt. 'cans' that were mostly cardboard
with metalized foil. Any damage and you'd have
a puddle of oil to clean up. I presume real metal
cans came before that.

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:57:55 -0400, Peter T. Keillor III
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:27:22 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Andy Asberry wrote:

On 2 Apr 2005 07:30:59 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:




To set the time frame for this tale; remember when motor oil came in
real cans? (metal content)


Heck, I remember when it came in 55 gallon barrels and we young pump
jockeys had to transfer it into those one quart glass jars with those
tinplate screw on spouts on top of them.

Jeff

I did that, but it was into 1 gallon jars for the Ag-cats. The P&W
R-985 was a dry sump with 7 gal reserve oil tank.

Pete Keillor


I don't have a clear memory of taking one of those apart on a Beech 18
with a bullet hole right through it.

Never siphon gas out of an Ag-cat and into your car. Matter of fact I
can't recall that either. Nothing like 12' of head on what 130 octane.

I find it flat out amazing that I made it to 19.

Never was into pranks , but I did watch a bunch of guys pick up mid
sized car and put it between two trees at a party deep in a national
forest.

Oh, I don't remember one fun one my cuz taught me. Hmmm ,maybe I
shouldn't mention that one. Hell with it, it cures stores from letting
their carts get wind blown into the road at night. I had a ****ty very
fast (especially on Av-Gas and Marvel mystery oil) car and cuz would
hold the grocery cart and I would place it lined up into a concrete
based light pole in the parking lot at about 85mph. One didn't land
for the longest time must have gone a good 100' up ! Statute of
limitations must be up for that one. Very dangerous stuff there, I kid
you not.


Pete , you should know... What octane was pink and green , each?
To think I use to sit in the stuff with it dripping all over me
washing the undersides of airplanes !

Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, but there will be a hella-big current induced into the ammeter
during the initial spike of current, no?


Not necessarily. Are you assuming a lightning strike on the rod?
That's what rods are to prevent.

On 6 Apr 2005 11:46:56 -0700, wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, but there will be a hella-big current induced into the ammeter
during the initial spike of current, no?

Not necessarily. Are you assuming a lightning strike on the rod?
That's what rods are to prevent.

Pretty sure Igor's initial comment was about _during_ a strike, so yes, that's
what I was answering in regards to. If you get a strike on the rod, measuring
that current with a clamp-on ammeter might be hard on the measuring
equipment.

Ken Sterling wrote:
Brian Lawson wrote:

Halloween night, 1956. We decide to steal an outhouse and put it on
the front lawn of the high-school. Sneak into the farmers back yard,
about 10 of us, and three guys go around to the back. Farmer must
have decided to move it within the last few days, and had not covered
over the old hole yet. Two guys fell in. They walked about 3 miles
back to town. We wouldn't even let them in the back of one of the
pickup trucks!



I'm glad they got out alive. It could have been much worse, as in:

There once was a man named McBride,
Who fell down the outhouse and died.
His next elder brother,
Fell into another,
So now they're in turd side-by-side.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

***snortttttt***** Time for *another* shirt change..... Jeeeezzzz
Jeff, you must have a book full of these..,.. :-)
Ken


Man can not live by metal chips alone:

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejwisnia18...limericks.html

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
. The other kid was involved
in a head on collision with a drunk driver who got onto an interstate
the wrong way by entering it through an exit ramp.

Jeff


Hey Jeff, I guess you must have some "Native Americans" just like
we do here in Albuquerque. (drunk - wrong way on I 40, did in most
of a family)
...lew...

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:18:42 GMT, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
. The other kid was involved
in a head on collision with a drunk driver who got onto an interstate
the wrong way by entering it through an exit ramp.

Jeff


Hey Jeff, I guess you must have some "Native Americans" just like
we do here in Albuquerque. (drunk - wrong way on I 40, did in most
of a family)
...lew...
Lew,
Ya don't have to be a "Native American" to drive drunk and kill
people. I fail to see why it matters where they were born or who they
were born to. Hell, George Bush drove drunk and it was only luck that
kept him from killing someone when he took out a hedge.
ERS